Troubled coins

[brandm24]

I've became acquainted with a man named David who knew Bobby Sands, both while growing up and while imprisoned together in Long Kesh in the late 70's and early 80's. Both lived for a time in Rathcoole and were radicalized by the experience.

As a Catholic, Sands had to survive daily in a predominantly Protestant neighborhood. Both he and David were at polar ends of the political spectrum. David was Protestant and from a staunchly Loyalist family. While in Rathcoole David joined the violent youth gang KAI and was later recruited into the UVF.  Somehow, they maintained at least a bit of a friendship despite their vast differences.

Sands of course died on hunger strike, but David was released in 1983 and by all accounts reformed his life dramatically. Not to excuse his past sins (which he doesn't) but at least he became a positive force in many people's lives in later years.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if he and Sands could coexist at least in some small way, why can't others. At least we know it's possible. The violence is insane with no apparent end in sight, even today. It's frightening to hear what's still going on. Granted, not so much overtly,, but not far below the surface either. It's a continuing tragedy, despite 20 years of "peace."

Bruce

[brandm24]

This no doubt alludes to the end of WW l, but seems appropriate for this thread.

Bruce

[Figleaf]

And for the board. It is easy for me to agree with the sentiment. As an economist, I see (civil) war like a doctor sees a serious disease.

Peter

[bagerap]

A sad counterpoint

[brandm24]

Yes, it is. I like the "Peace" coin better.

Thanks for posting the picture, bagerap.

Bruce

[brandm24]

As an addition to bagerap's "sad counterpoint," I've always wondered about the stamping of these two coins and their purpose. I bought the two some years apart thinking perhaps that they were a comment with a political meaning rather than just a random set of initials. If so, were they making an anti-war or pro-war statement and what war or conflict did they refer to?

The 1797 Penny would have been in circulation at the time of the United Irishmen revolt in 1798. Although the conflict lasted only through the summer, many people died during this horrific event. It's interesting that the counterstamp is struck over the reverse of the coin and not defacing the portrait. This is nearly always the case with Nationalist protest issues. Still not sure what to think about this one.

The 1929 Penny is more likely to be a "declaration of war' on Britain. Perhaps a comment on the Irish Civil War of 1922 / 1923 that led to the implementation of Home Rule in Ireland. It's struck over the portrait as normally seen.

 And then we have bagerap's coin and another puzzle. Not only "WAR", but what do the initials mean?

In addition to these three, I've seen an 1863 Penny stamped "WAR." The coin isn't in my collection so I don't have a picture to show. The counterstamp is defacing Victoria's portrait however. If it were referring to domestic warfare, perhaps the 1848 Young Irelander uprising. A big stretch here, I think.

I'm probably overthinking all this and there's some mundane explanation for each. Compounding the problem, of course, is that  if we're trying to reference an actual conflict to each coin, there are so many to consider. War is the ugliest three-letter word I know in the English language.

Bruce

[bagerap]

Bruce, if you'd like my penny just PM me your address, it's yours.

[FosseWay]

Just to be pedantic  , the upper of the two in Bruce's last post is a 1799 halfpenny, not a 1797 penny. It therefore wouldn't have been in circulation during the '98 but that doesn't stop it being related to ongoing unrest in Ireland. Given how worn the piece is, though, I suspect the counterstamp is considerably later and may refer to the Napoleonic wars, the Crimean War or some colonial conflict.

[brandm24]

Bruce, if you'd like my penny just PM me your address, it's yours.

Your offer is much appreciated. I'll PM you my address.

Thanks so much

Bruce

[brandm24]

Just to be pedantic  , the upper of the two in Bruce's last post is a 1799 halfpenny, not a 1797 penny. It therefore wouldn't have been in circulation during the '98 but that doesn't stop it being related to ongoing unrest in Ireland. Given how worn the piece is, though, I suspect the counterstamp is considerably later and may refer to the Napoleonic wars, the Crimean War or some colonial conflict.

Pedantic is good for me, FosseWay.

Although not in circulation in 1798, slogans are sometimes stamped on coins later. That's what makes something like this not only hard to decipher, but also to assign a time period to. The stamp, while heavily worn, does appear to be a bit later so you may be right that it refers to a different conflict. Sadly, there are too many to choose from.

Bruce

[brandm24]

There's no mistaking the meaning of these counterstamps. It calls for the reunification of the 32 Irish counties to form an independent Ireland. A stark declaration of war by the IRA.

It's interesting that the two 32s are struck retrograde. Letters or numbers applied this way are seen on occasion. Mistakes are sometimes made when punching coins, but these were done for a reason. That reason is unknown to me.

Bruce

[malj1]

The retrograde 32 is not a mistake as being able to access a retrograde number stamp would be very difficult and unusual. I can't begin to imagine how this could have occurred.

[brandm24]

I've come to realize in the past few years that the clover leaf or shamrock is sometimes used as a Nationalist symbol. I've been told this by several people in Northern Ireland who I contact on occasion in regard to Troubles issues. More recently I came across online an article printed in the Oct. 24, 2001 issue of The Guardian that further convinces me of this. A man named Hugh Brighton reported owning a 1903 English Penny with several clover leaves stamped over the King's portrait. His understanding was that it was used as a Nationalist symbol especially by the IRA.

In any case, I have three examples in my collection. It's sad that a symbol generally meant to portray good luck has been adopted by a group like this. A bit like the swastika, also historically a good luck symbol, being co-opted as a thing of hate.

The first coin, a 1948 6p, was part of a bracelet I acquired from a man in Derbyshire quite recently. The second, a 1911 Penny, came from a souce in Lincolnshire, and the third, a 1986 Irish 20p, from a woman in Kells about 6 or 7 years ago. This coin is part of a small collection I bought from her. There's an interesting backstory here, but I'll save it for another day.

Bruce

[Figleaf]

My understanding of the clover leaf symbol is that it applies to the whole island, i.e. the Republic plus Northern Ireland. It is liberally used a tourist souvenirs. In principle it is not more war-like than a maple leaf or Marianne, but, unlike those symbols, it does have a political implication, as the IRA did want a unification of the two parts on the island. In that sense, a clover leaf could be used (or rather abused) as an excuse for lethal violence.

Peter

[bagerap]

Surely, the four leafed clover is regarded as a Good Luck symbol and is not specifically Irish.