Author Topic: Troubled coins  (Read 14225 times)

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Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2019, 03:33:14 PM »
And on this coin, the mystery is whole. No one knows what G.F stands for. A latter day love token? The counterstamp was done with a single punch, but the die cutter forgot the second dot. It's the oldest coin in the series, but it is more worn than the others. I'll probably never know.

Peter
I know this is a really old thread, but I actually came across it several years ago while researching Irish Troubles coins. They are my main collecting interest these days, though I have other interests as well.

In any case, I recently bought a "G.F" counterstamped coin from a man in England that matches yours exactly, Peter. When I saw the coin offered on an auction site, I immediately remembered you posting this one. Mine is on a 1940 Irish Shilling, and was curious to know the date of your coin if you recall, or even still have it. I haven't been able to identify it as a political issue, but I believe it is. Interestingly, so did the seller. If yours is a WWll era issue that might provide a clue as to its meaning. I'm unable to attach a picture. Apparently my file is too large...3.2 MB Your comments would be most appreciated.

Cheers,
Bruce
Bruce

Offline EWC

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 08:30:25 AM »
Interesting thread.  I recall my wife once answered the phone to that well known numismatist O D Cresswell, and happened to call him an Irishman.  Her ears are still ringing.  He is, (if he lives still), an Ulsterman.

A pity he is not here to comment on this thread as he told me many very interesting and very relevant stories.   He modestly told me "I have only been shot at twice, and one of those was by accident.”

Regarding tour guides:  One time I went on a tour of the ancient Irish monastery at Clonmacnoise.  The tour guide laid stress on the fact that Cromwell sacked the place.  Afterwards I chatted to an Irish archaeology PhD - manning the pay desk as a summer job.  In an admirable display of objectivity – I recall he added - “Yeah, but we Irish sacked it 15 times ourselves”.  (Maybe he was wrong – wiki says 27 times).

Regarding 1690.  Yep, the continental French tried to use Ireland as a staging post to conquer England.  Interesting to mull that concerning 1916………...and indeed 2019……………

Rob T

(personally I wonder if this entire thread ought to go in controversial subjects, given Peter’s earlier comments.  BTW - my wife visited The Tavern in the Town just the night before. Maybe I am biased?)


« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 10:46:09 AM by EWC »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 06:39:19 PM »
Welcome to WoC, Bruce. Glad you joined.

The coins in that thread all disappeared in 2013, so I can give no further information on them. The G.F counterstamp may be older, but they all came in one lot at the same time and of course from the same source, an advanced Belfast collector.

As for posting pictures, the quicky answer to your problem is here. A more sedate and wider approach is here.

@EWC: I think you will find that the French participation was aimed more at promoting the counter-reformation than any hope that France would be able to do a hostile takeover of England. The war of the Spanish succession clearly shows that the Habsburgs were not about to let the Bourbons have a dominating position in Europe. It would have been simple for them to invade France in order to catch Louis flat-footed if he'd exposed himself too much in Ireland.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:26:07 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline FosseWay

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 08:19:49 PM »
On the other hand the French did try to support the 1798 rising in the way EWC suggests. The Germans certainly supported the Easter Rising in 1916 but I'm not sure whether they had any realistic or advanced plans to invade Ireland. More likely, they just wanted to create mayhem that would draw British troops away from the Western front.

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2019, 11:05:34 AM »
Thank you, Peter

The "G.F" counterstamp would certainly be hard to attribute, but a probable time frame...in this case WW 2...would be helpful. I thought if you could recall the date of your example it would help me a bit. I've been researching these things for a long time and don't give up easily, so I'll keep at it.

Thank you for the ideas on resizing my images. I'll see how it works out and come back with smaller images and comments on some of the Troubles coins I have.

Bruce
Bruce

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2019, 10:56:28 PM »
I've got the picture resizing "thingy" good to go now...hopefully. I wanted to post pictures of my "G.F" counterstamp, and a UVF / PDV piece similar to Peter's example. These two are the only examples I've ever seen  on a coin. UVF is very common, of course, but PDV is not. I also assumed it stood for Protestant Defence Volunteers, but I've never come across a group using that name. In any case, it's quite apparent that there was a connection between the two.

Bruce
Bruce

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2019, 05:31:57 PM »
Another thing that may mean something, nothing or be untrue is that on coins with a fish, the letters seem to be punched approximately following the body of the fish, an indication that the puncher "saw" the fish. On the others, the placement of the punches seems random, the puncher "saw" only the outline of the coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2019, 06:43:05 PM »
Yes, the most common application of acronyms follows the curve of the salmon on the reverse. Perhaps an attempt at artistic expression. I know when I look at one I see the coin's devices and not necessarily the coin as a whole.

Bruce
Bruce

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2019, 05:56:19 PM »
The meaning of "KAI" was discussed earlier and I have a comment to add.

 Early on I was also under that the impression that the acronym stood for "Kill All Irish". I thought that was odd, as the meaning wouldn't favor either side. You would be in effect for the destruction of all Irish peoples.

I was told several years ago by a former KAI ...and UVF volunteer... that it did stand for "Kill All Irishmen" He as a strong Unionist, considered himself an Ulsterman as did O.D. Cresswell. The term Irishman was foreign to him.

I have an Irish Shilling stamped "Sons of KAI / Wog" The Sons of KAI was a modern Irish flute band, who vehemently denied what KAI stood for. It's interesting to note that some members of the band had close ties to the former youth gang in Rathcoole. That makes the meaning clear.

I'll have to find my picture of the coin and post it.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2019, 09:15:29 PM »
My comments are upthread, Bruce. Just to ad that KAI was produced with three separate, but well executed punches. If you plan to decorate many coins like that, you'd go for a single punch with all three letters - unless you don't know how to get them.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2019, 09:58:14 PM »
It's extremely rare to see these coins stamped with anything other than individual punches, Peter The only two I recall ever seeing stamped with a prepared punch are some VANGUARD and IRA pieces. Even more involved slogans such as WE WILL MAINTAIN and IRISH REPUBLICAN ARMY are applied one punch at a time, sometimes quite neatly.

Here's the picture of my KAI coin mentioned upthread. I got this from a man in Telford several years ago.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2019, 10:15:21 PM »
The G.F counterstamp is also one punch, but I take your point. Mine was: not a professional or well organised group, like Vanguard and IRA. You will have noticed that your KAI punches and mine are in a different font. It looks like yours were all done at the same time by the same person.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2019, 10:52:05 PM »
Here are a couple of coins that reference the Nationalist Easter Rising of 1916.

The "GPO" issues, of which I've only seen three, are interesting pieces. The beginning of the Rising commenced at the General Post Office in Dublin when Patrick Pearse, the "face" of the revolt read the Proclamation of the Irish Republic on the steps of the building. The armed part of the action was brief but bloody. Pearse and a dozen or so other leaders were executed shortly after.

The 1916 stamped coins commemorate the uprising just as coins stamped 1690 recall the Battle of the Boyne for Unionists. The Loyalist victory there cemented Protestant rule in England. Surprisingly, I haven't seen a lot of 1916 examples, though 1690 stamps are very common.

One oddity about the GPO coin is that it's stamped on the reverse of the coin. A large majority of Nationalist slogans / initials are struck across the King or Queen's portrait as a deliberate act of defacement.

Bruce
Bruce

Online brandm24

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2019, 10:54:36 PM »
Sorry, the first coin pic didn't post. Here it is.

Bruce
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Troubled coins
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2019, 07:16:21 AM »
The consideration the first. I was in that GPO this autumn with SpaBreda. There was an extensive special exhibition on that event. We got a fairly good idea of the circumstances. It is extremely unlikely that the occupiers had either the time or the equipment to do this, let alone both.

The consideration the second. The Easter rising did not have popular support. There are stories of people living around the GPO bringing tea to the British soldiers. It was in fact the stupid and ham-handed execution of the occupiers that made them into heroes and started an independence movement. Therefore, this was done (well) after the Easter rising. Take into account that 1916 coins circulated in the UK until 1969 and that plenty of Irishmen found a job in Britain.

The consideration the third. That said, this is the work of an amateur (the O is punched in sideways) who took the time to do a good job (the letters are well aligned). It is likely to be an attempt to create some kind of commemorative out of a 1916 coin. That would explain why the punches are on the side of the date. I find it a highly interesting piece. TFP.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.