Author Topic: where is this from ? Timor ?  (Read 5225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
where is this from ? Timor ?
« on: September 05, 2007, 10:13:57 PM »
Greetings,

I was this on a catalogue , They say it is from East Timor  KM 8, I went to the library but I could not find it.
When was the countermark placed ? By the Dutch when Timor was conquered from Portugal ???

LP

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2007, 10:15:35 PM »
Here's the other side.

It is 8 reales from potosi  Fillip II

BC Numismatics

  • Guest
Where is this from ?
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2007, 10:36:35 PM »
Luis,it looks like a counterstamped coin from one of the countries in Latin America - either Guatemala or Peru.

I don't recall seeing any mention of any coins being counterstamped for use in colonial East Timor.

Aidan.

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 494
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2007, 11:00:12 PM »
The base coin is too old for the counterstamp to be Dutch. Long distance seafaring took off in the 1590's only. The cross is of a type that was used as a mintmark by the duchy of Gelre, but Gelre was not a seafaring province. I vaguely remember a similar countermark from the sultanate of Sumenep, but now, I can't find it. Frankly, the counterstamp looks Portuguese to me. If I'd found it, I would have asked YOUR comment!

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

BC Numismatics

  • Guest
Where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2007, 11:08:34 PM »
Peter,I think that the counterstamp definitely looks Spanish.Look closely at the arms of the cross.The design is very similar to that of some of the gold 8 Escudos from colonial Spanish America.The host coin is definitely from either Spain or Mexico.

Aidan.

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2007, 11:48:29 PM »
Thanks for all the replys so far,
I could not find it anywere ... It is on the site www.dnw.co.uk . They auction two catalogues in London. There it states that the coin is from East Timor. I'll keep on looking but the counterstamp is unknown to me.

LP

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2007, 01:41:48 PM »
Greetings,

I looked for information on Asiatic coins and found nothing for Timor.
Later I found ( I think ) the reason why the coin was identified as from Timor.
The pic is from countermarked Mexican coins to be used in Timor in 1900.
The cross looks similar to the one I found on the web but it misses the circle around the cross. Besides that , what would be the logic of countermarking coins from the 16th Century in 1900 ?

I am more inclined to agree with Aidan, that it would be Spanish Colonial. I don't know much about that subject, But I'll look around.

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2007, 01:46:35 PM »
Here's a bigger photo of he type of coin this countermark is placed, there are If I remember correctly 7 dates used for Timor.

LP

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 494
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2007, 01:55:44 PM »
The counterstamp on the Spanish coins was made with a circular die, so that the cross is raised. Those on the Mexican coins were made with a die in the shape of a cross, so that the cross is incuse. Add the very different dates and I conclude that the mark on the Spanish coin is of a different origin. I think you will agree that a majority of the Portuguese 16th century coins from the tost?o up has exactly this cross on the reverse.

As for the Mexicans, I am reminded of the "Antigua liberty dollars", fabrications made in the US for sale to collectors. The Timorese have always had other, more pressing problems than how to obtain big silver coins, like food and shelter.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2007, 02:04:18 PM »
I completely agree with your lat post Figleaf,
Still the question is, if this is a genuine stamp from some other country or a fake one ?

LP

Offline Figleaf

  • Administrator
  • Honorary Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 29 494
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2007, 02:34:13 PM »
True, and we don't have much to go on. Since the base coin is Spanish colonial, we can exclude the political protest of an angry Portuguese, who didn't like the Spanish takeover of Portugal. If the stamp is Iberico-colonial, the most likely areas are where Portuguese and Spanish interests met, i.e. East Asia and Brazil. Brazil was a rich colony, in no need of silver coins from Bolivia, so if the counterstamp is from there, chances are that it is a private political protest. The die is professionally done, so I'd suspect a local jeweller.

In East Asia, the Spanish takeover could have cut off the flow of Portuguese coins to its established colonies. Silver from Bolivia was transported to Veracruz by donkey power, hence to Manila with the Manila galleon and from Manila it could have gone anywhere. Therefore, the counterstamps may have been applied officially in any Portuguese settlement in East Asia and chances are that it would be an emergency measure (though a political protest is hard to exclude here also). I'd find it hard to explain that Spaniards would counterstamp their own coin, even harder to explain why a silver coin would be countermarked with a symbol from a gold coin.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 06, 2007, 02:35:59 PM by Figleaf »
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline lusomosa

  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 291
Re: where is this from ? Timor ?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2007, 09:22:08 AM »
All seems very difficult to analyse......

LP