News:

Sign up for the monthly zoom events by sending a PM with your email address to Hitesh

Main Menu

Madras Presidency Jeweler's token on eBay

Started by repindia, March 24, 2012, 04:45:51 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

repindia

There is one Jeweler's token on eBay which is certified as a genuine one pagoda coin by Shastri JC Philip who I guess also posts here. This coin is definitely a jeweler's token and I am surprised that the Shastri would certify it as such.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRITISH-INDIA-MADRAS-PRESIDENCY-1807-5-STAR-GOLD-PAGODA-VERY-LOW-MINT-COIN-XRARE-/260987376530?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item3cc40f5392#ht_2774wt_1166

There is also a possibility that someone is using his name since the person is fighting a war against fakes and counterfeits.

You would also see similar jeweler's tokens in US third party grading slabs too and I am sure these companies have the funds to buy back their mistakes. I had started a similar thread about NGS of India's certification policies http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14379.0.html and not heard anything back.

This thread is not to point fingers at anyone but to bring to attention the token so as to save potential bidders and to check whether the certified coin they are buying is covered by any guarantee.

Again I respect what Shastri JC Phillip is doing against fakes and counterfeits and if he has indeed certified this coin then must be an honest mistake which even US grading/certification companies have made.

Figleaf

Preserving the pictures before eBay deletes them...

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

@josephjk

Quote from: repindia on March 24, 2012, 04:45:51 AM
This coin is definitely a jeweler's token

I am not very familiar with pagodas. How  do you tell the difference between a fake and genuine one? Are there differences to look for?
thanks

Oesho

Particular the way the word 'hun' is written in Persian, gives a clear indication that it is a jewellers copy.
The Pagodas were very popular in South India for jewelers purpose. The continuous demand was the reason to make copies. The problem, however, is that they make them too well and very often these pieces appear in auctions of often very reputed companies.
Below a genuine example of a one Pagoda for comparison.

@josephjk

#4
I see it now - they are different at a number of spots on the coin. thanks Oesho

repindia

I observed one more such coin selling on eBay for a large sum of money. Pictures are attached here.

I contacted the buyer and told him he had bought a "jeweler's copy"-->

"You recently won a Madras gold pagoda graded MS63 by NGC eBay auction xxxxxxxxx. Please be aware that this is a fake coin. You can ask the experts and they will tell you that this is fake. These are jeweler's copies and are not genuine. NGC used to slab them long time back.
If you don't want to believe me best of luck to you!"

His response was-->

"I am one of the Experts of American Numismatic Society, Life Associate
xxx x xxx
and of ANA, NGC and PCGS."

It might have been an honest mistake but really best of luck to him!

andyg

always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Oesho

Quote"I am one of the Experts of American Numismatic Society, Life Associate
xxx x xxx
and of ANA, NGC and PCGS."
This show how much one can depend on slabbed coins and now the Chinese make fake slab as well.
Funny. :o

akona20

I second what Oesho has said having recently seen some of the best fooled.

This is a classic example of why knowledge is the key to buying expensive coins.

cmerc

     Expertise           -  1
Third party grading -  0  !!

One can also recognize copies of the pagoda by inspecting the temple.  Copies usually have a more crude-looking pagoda, genuine ones show more intricate details. 


Quote from: repindia on August 13, 2013, 10:39:32 PM
"I am one of the Experts of American Numismatic Society, Life Associate
xxx x xxx
and of ANA, NGC and PCGS."

But isn't this an Indian coin?   :P
Defending this hobby against a disapproving family since 1998.

akona20

I have a standard email that goes out to these folks about errors in attribution and about fakes. At least I get answered by most groups.

The answer from one major American selling site when I advised that they had shown some upside down was " We are not experts in these coins." I have often wondered how this sits with their eternal guarantee on attribution and genuineness?

As for the lead coin on this article well nothing more needs to be said. A question remains open though about assistance being given to an extremely good Thailand based faking group.

Oesho

QuoteAs for the lead coin on this article well nothing more needs to be said. A question remains open though about assistance being given to an extremely good Thailand based faking group.

My information is that those jewelers copies were made by a jeweler in Madras (Chenai), just for the purpose as intended for, but
somehow people got mislead and within no time those deceptive gold 'one pagoda' coins found there way to many collectors and auction houses al over the world.
Reputed auction houses, despite being informed that it are jewelers copies, didn't withdraw the coin. What can be done to so much ignorance?

akona20

I place the Thailand fakers advice there as a slight throw away line. They are obviously getting great advice at present.

What makes people think they are genuine? Well coins like the one presented here seemingly with some authority. As Oesho points out these copies, okay let us be bolder, these FAKES got into the mainstream because of ignorance and silliness from people who claim some authority and knowledge. And yes they proper from it.

malj1

Shastri has not been in for a while, I wonder if he can confirm its his certification?
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

repindia

I think I made a mistake in contacting the guy. He went ahead and said the coin was genuine and said things which I would not have said to someone giving me his point of view. Following makes for interesting reading-->
"
The Mint Mark on the Pagodas is an English Alphabet hidden within the Design, in the First Series and are 2 English Alphabets hidden likewise.in the Second series, Jewellers overlook this most important mint mark(s) as overall design(s).and would not make the Mint Mark distinct.

In our complete collection of Madras.Pagodas in Gold, Silver, Brass e Copper, each mint coin issue have an mint-mark.unique for the coin value.
When we bought that Pagoda on Ebay, its for 2nd Set we are completing, not for future auction or sales, of the both NGC MS 63 we have, or maybe we will release 1 MS 63 later for sales.

Anyway, British NS or ONS does not have the complete South Asian Coins, as ANS NY NY does. There are 3 sets of Complete Mad.Pagoda collected at the time of issue for ANS..... Check on the history and painstaking work of the curators of ANS...

This is the ANS current true expert Elena Stolyarik, Collections Manager South Asian Coins, who will review the coins herself physically, and your photos and will not write to other known experts for an opinion. But will give immediate opinion or verdict as you called.
"