Author Topic: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.  (Read 6055 times)

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Offline natko

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Today I was reading and digging info on those coins, so just wanted to quickly share the most peculiar info with you.
First story is about 20, 40 and 80 reis 1819 - 1825, which were some two decades ago removed from Mozambique listings in KM catalog to S. Tome. Yet, 1820 date is still listed on both places, although is the same coin, so if you collect both countries by type or by year, you should keep that in mind!

Those were struck in Brasil and Portugal for use on S. Tome, but shipped through Mozambique (from weird reason, it's twice as far!), so probably circulated on both places. However, they are correctly attributed to the S. Tome and Prince colony. Biggest difference I see is that 1819 and 1820 coins have dots by each side of the date, while newer have small rosettes.

Actually, everything can be found on this great site
http://tielens.free.fr/Numis/Mozambique.html

Another interesting story is related to 1853 issues. Like many other colonial forces, Portugal struck homeland type for use overseas. Coins of 5, 10 and 20 Reis 1853 were minted for Mozambique only, but unlike anywhere else I know, two smaller denominations of 1 and 2 reis were made as well, resembling 13 year old design of bigger 3 coins. 1840 issues of Mozambique are similar to homeland types as well, without globe around coat of arms, without specifically written colony, so, without literature it would be hard to attribute it correctly.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 07:51:47 PM by Afrasi »

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 05:16:43 PM »
If I remember correctly, there are also Portuguese homeland types or dates struck exclusively for Brazil.

KM's editorial policy seems to be to list such coins in the homeland chapter. There are several such coins in the British and Dutch chapters.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2012, 12:09:31 AM »
If a date of the type is for colonies, it's listed in homeland of course. If that whole type was issued for colony, there is no much choice and only correct would be listing in the colony, even if it's not specified on the coin itself. On the other hand there are many exceptions, e.g. when different metal was used, like in France or "updated" effigy, like in Britain. I agree on those cases that they should be listed in homeland.

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2012, 12:29:20 AM »
There's also the concern of how easy a newbie can find the coin. Some people have trouble locating a coin that has the name of a French colony on one side and République Française on the other. KM lists them in the chapter of the colony. Those people would have immense trouble finding a Netherlands half gulden if it were listed in the Netherlands Indies chapter, where it belongs.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 09:56:32 AM »
Some pics for this fine thread:

Here are 40 Reis 1819 (Rio de Janeiro) and 80 reis 1825 (Standard Colonial Design) struck for Sao Tomé.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:09:26 PM by Afrasi »

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 10:33:44 AM »
Here are 20, 40 and 80 Reis of 1820, all minted at Rio de Janeiro. (Standard Colonial Design)

These were all found in Mocambique, not on Sao Tomé!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 12:13:37 PM by Afrasi »

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 12:03:17 PM »
And here 20, 40 and 80 Reis of 1840 minted for Mocambique only. ("Homeland Coinage")

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2012, 12:48:27 PM »
Thanks, Afrasi! Are these harder to collect than the homeland coins of the same type?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 02:17:59 PM »
Prices are different than in catalog, some go below but mostly much higher, where are have about the same value, like in all earlier Portuguese colonial coinage. Good example is 1814-1815 series of Angola, where Macuta is very easy in high grade for 20-25 dollars, but others are at least 4 times more expensive. Not even mentioning 2 macuta, which sells at about 2000 dollars.

I guess they're same or just a bit scarcer (speaking of 1840 "homeland types", which has fairly low mintage anyway), while other of that period are considerably harder, although most were struck in Portugal. However, you'll see some pieces, especially new, where low mintage figures dictates high price but you can find them everyday. Afrasi will have much more to say of course, or correct me.

Offline natko

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 02:19:57 PM »

These were all found in Mocambique, not on Sao Tomé!

I wanted to say they're listed on both places in catalogue. To my knowledge, they apparently circulated on both places, for double its face value.

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 04:17:50 PM »
I have not much knowledge about the homeland coinage of Portugal. I can say the series of 1840 is a little bit more difficult to get than 1820 and 1853.

As Natko mentioned these coins "in the first half of XIX ct.",  ;)
here is the set of 1853:
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:25:39 PM by Afrasi »

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 04:29:54 PM »
The last pieces of "homeland coinage" struck for Mocambique are 5 Reis 1874 and 1877, 10 Reis 1874 and 20 Reis 1874. These are not so easy ones ... I have only the last one in my collection. :'( 

 

Offline Figleaf

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 05:59:10 PM »
As a type (I don't look at dates), these coins are not difficult to find, but almost always worn. Your coins look better to much better than average, Afrasi. Those series are a joy to look at.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline natko

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 06:39:30 PM »
BTW, what was relation of countermarked coins to each other and to Portuguese money? I assume at glance that shilling was equal to half rupee, as well that 8 reales was equal to Austrian thaler. Is it known what's the reason there are no crowned countermark pieces of quarter rupee, or annas?

Offline Afrasi

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Re: S. Thomas & Prince and Mozambique coins in the first half of XIX ct.
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2015, 06:28:41 PM »
Now I got a second piece of 80 Reis 1825 and it is very different, specially the size of the shield in the arms. This strong variant is not in my old KM. Can anybody help, please?