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Belgian varieties

Started by Figleaf, January 25, 2012, 09:57:15 PM

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Aernout

Quote from: Figleaf on January 25, 2012, 09:57:15 PM
116.2
5
francs
1939
star edgeF/V


1939 is always a star, but the 1939 Fr/Fl is (very) rare ! Also very hard to find.

mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

Aernout

Quote from: andyg on January 26, 2012, 08:23:05 PM
Have never been sure if this is the no dash variety...

It's an 1857 Cent.  Found in a dealers junk box a number of years ago.


The dash is normally under the  '1 Cent'.

So this is the variety...

Mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

andyg

Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:27:26 PM
The dash is normally under the  '1 Cent'.

So this is the variety...

Mvg,
Aernout

Thanks :)
I always did wonder.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Aernout

Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

Aernout

Quote from: Figleaf on January 25, 2012, 09:57:15 PM

117.1
5
francs1938-1939crown edgeV/F


1938 = crown = normal
1939 = star    = normal

A and B is the edge position

Normal:
1938 Fr/Fl  A  Crown
1938 Fr/Fl  B  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl  A  Star
1939 Fr/Fl  B  Star

Variant:
1938 Fr/Fl  A  Star
1938 Fr/Fl  B  Star
1939 Fr/Fl  A  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl  B  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl Without edge inscription

Mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

Aernout

Quote from: Figleaf on January 25, 2012, 09:57:15 PM
147.220centimes1954-1960centime touches rimV

Never seen one before.

mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

Figleaf

Quote from: SpaBreda on January 26, 2012, 01:15:57 PM
This looks like a 10 Centimes 1920 Fr single line ...
Not really a single line, but rather a normal and a small line

Thanks, Paul. However, I think it could just as well be a filthy die. Could other people post this variety also, so we can compare the length of the second line?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:02:21 PM
A big S on the small s

ist not the same, a small prove that the exist ?

Excellent, Aernout, but, as you said, not a completely proven variety yet. What is striking is that the small S aligns well with the T and should therefore have been used, while the "big" S sticks out above the T and should therefore have been rejected. However, on this coin it looks like things went the other way around: the "big" S is on top.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:08:06 PM
Photos on Bart reactions, above.

1894 Fr - 1901 Fr = Normal lion
1901 Fr - 1901 Fl = Different (bigger) lion

Normal lion = the head, claw and trail are further from the inner circle, lion is smaller and father
Different lion =  the head, claw and trail are closer by the inner circle, lion is bigger and thinner

Fr = French and Fl = Flemish

It's a good thing that we have the raster or dots. If I couldn't have counted the dots between the lion and the inner circle I would still have had doubts. But you are right. Different lion. 8)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:20:30 PM
The NB comfirm them, but there are rare !

Here also, I wonder if the
95.2   10   centimes   1931-1932   single dash   F
is not just a filthy die, therefore a production error, rather than a variety (different die). That would explain why it's seldom seen.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

#25
Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:35:49 PM
1938 = crown = normal
1939 = star    = normal

A and B is the edge position

Normal:
1938 Fr/Fl  A  Crown
1938 Fr/Fl  B  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl  A  Star
1939 Fr/Fl  B  Star

Variant:
1938 Fr/Fl  A  Star
1938 Fr/Fl  B  Star
1939 Fr/Fl  A  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl  B  Crown
1939 Fr/Fl Without edge inscription

In this case, I would think that the coins you call "variant" are obviously production errors, not a variety. Interesting by itself, but not a different type. The same thing goes for the coins without edge inscription (KM 116.3 and 117.3): interesting error, not a sub-type.

In addition, the edge position is random, since edge and coin are produced in two separate actions. KM does not note the edge position on 1 and 2 euro coins, so it logically should not distinguish the positions here either.

Summing it up, the following would be circulation strikes:

116.1 Fr crown 1938 cheap
116.2 Fr star   1939 expensive
117.1 Fl crown 1938 expensive
117.2 Fl star   1939 cheap

While the following production errors exist:

Fl star   1938 expensive
Fr none  1938 expensive
Fr crown 1939 expensive
Fl crown 1939 expensive
Fl none  1939 expensive

But that raises the question whether

116.2 Fr star   1939 expensive
117.1 Fl crown 1938 expensive

could be mules: French obverse with 1939 reverse and Flemish obverse with 1938 reverse, since the legends and the dates are on different sides. In other words, the government had only two varieties in mind: Fr crown 1938 and Fl star 1939. However, by liberally mixing dies and collars, the mint produced almost all permutations possible.

What do you think?

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

Quote from: andyg on January 26, 2012, 08:23:05 PM
Have never been sure if this is the no dash variety...

It's an 1857 Cent.  Found in a dealers junk box a number of years ago.

Convincing, Andy. The dash is just not there. Thanks.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

andyg

Quote from: Aernout on January 26, 2012, 08:37:06 PM
Never seen one before.

mvg,
Aernout

Belg_Jos was studying this variety some time ago - I think his conclusion was much the same.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Aernout

Quote from: Figleaf on January 26, 2012, 10:31:12 PM
But that raises the question whether

116.2 Fr star   1939 expensive
117.1 Fl crown 1938 expensive

could be mules: French obverse with 1939 reverse and Flemish obverse with 1938 reverse, since the legends and the dates are on different sides. In other words, the government had only two varieties in mind: Fr crown 1938 and Fl star 1939. However, by liberally mixing dies and collars, the mint produced almost all permutations possible.

What do you think?

I could be. Is a logical explanation.

But when I look to the encyclopedia of belgian coins (publisher KMR - Koninlijke munt van Belgie):
1938 Fl/Fr = 3 200 000 ex
1938 Fr/Fl = 11 419 000 ex
1939 Fl/Fr = 8 219 000 ex
1939 Fr/Fl = - ex

So we know that the 117.1 had 3 200 000 ex. could we still talk about mules or hybrids ?

mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.

Aernout

Quote from: andyg on January 26, 2012, 11:52:25 PM
Belg_Jos was studying this variety some time ago - I think his conclusion was much the same.

Here a link to the study: http://www.muntstukken.be/forum/index.php/topic,22502.0.html

mvg,
Aernout
Start small to end magnificent - Start klein om groots te eindigen.