Counterstamp 1849 JB

[MattEdge]

Hello,

I have come across an interesting coin described as follows, with photo attached:

"Sarawak, James Brooke (Rajah, 1841-1868), worn Louis XVI flan reverse countermarked with JB 1849 in separate cartouches. Countermarks very fine, extremely rare and apparently unpublished.

An example of one of the earliest coins used in the State of Sarawak under the Rajah Sir James Brooke. We understand that after the initial limited minting of the 'one keping' coin in the early 1840s, that James sought a less expensive option to minting a new currency for his fledgling state and so bought a large horde of out of circulation Louis French coins, on which he had stamped his own initials and the date. The head of the French king can still be seen on the reverse of this coin. This is the only example of this coin we have seen to date."

Can anyone tell me if they have come across such a coin before, or have ever seen reference to such a minting in any publication?

Many thanks,
Matthew

[Figleaf]

Very interesting piece. Is it mentioned in Pridmore? Who are you quoting in your post?

There is perilously little to go on. JB could be James Brooke and 1849 is the right sort of date between that first keping and the start of the real coins in 1863.

However, I would not expect any French coins to be available in quantity in that part of the world. Also, the portrait is Louis XVI, but I believe all his low value coins are copper, not brass. There are brass coins from later periods, but not with this portrait or this reverse (I think I see the royal arms). Can you give size or weight?

More questions than answers...

Peter

[malj1]

No sign of it in Pridmore; nor Chalmers, Brunk or even British Commonwealth Coins, Remick et al. although I do believe I have read something somewhere before.

The host brass coin of Louis XVI is probably something like this 2 Sols of 1792...

[Figleaf]

I don't think that's the host coin. Look at the neckline... Also, the reverse doesn't fit. Having size or weight would be important.

Did some research. Brooke went to Britain in 1846/7 for a few months, but stayed in Sarawak thereafter. He stayed in London, did not go to Birmingham. That makes a European source for the coins unlikely. On coming back, he "pacified" local tribes, fighting him and each other, with such success that by 1850, he had introduced a school and a church, with a real bishop in charge He'd also got into political trouble at home, as the whigs thought he was wantonly killing the sweet innocent natives for the sport of it, making a Birmingham source more unlikely. No mention of a token, but he does seem to have an on-again-off-again financial problem in these days, which may be used to argue either way.

Peter

[malj1]

"something like"   
The previous issue had the shield reverse and slightly different bust - but many of these seem to be brass - bronze from cannons?
the one I have shown is definitely brass.

[Figleaf]

Yes, I also think it is a previous issue with the royal arms (which fits with what I can see on te reverse.) However, the low value royal issues are all copper.

The brass coins came about because, following the revolution, there was a scarcity of coin metal and the revolutionaries had church bells melted for coinage. Church bells are mostly brass. Two possible solutions are that a) this is a worn low silver content coin or b) this is a counter.

Peter

[MattEdge]

Hello,

Thanks for your replied.

The source for paragraph 2 is a valuer from Glendinings, who based his assessment on the provenance supplied for the author of Paragraph one, a member of the Brooke family, a descendant of James, who inherited the coin.

I have read of this coin elsewhere but cannot think where or when!

Perhaps the host coin is this of 1783 attached?

Many thanks for any ideas,
Matthew

[malj1]

I think I have it.
Kr73a.1/2/3/4 are bell metal; obv LUDOV XVI and rev 1791 above shield [17xx shows above shield on the above] one Sol -----my image 89.2 2 Sol

...my Krause is the hardback 2 Vol. edition from way back!

[Figleaf]

Turn the top picture on its head and you will see that the date is 1785 (or maybe 1786) just above the JB punch. There is no doubt at all that the low value coins of 1785 were 100% copper, not brass. Since we know neither weight, nor diameter, it could have been a liard (KM 585), demi sol (KM 586) or sol (KM 578), but the metal is dead wrong.

I am sure Glendinings has done their homework, but I hope they have more to go on than what must be a family tradition, either unknown to or rejected by Fred Pridmore. Working on my own ancestry, I discovered the frailty of family traditions when exposed to research.

Peter

[MattEdge]

Many thanks.

I have contacted the owner and have the following information:

"the coin appears to be copper, with signs of oxidization. Its weight is 13 grams and it is approximately 40mm diameter."

I hope this helps,

Matt

[Figleaf]

Yes, that progresses things. The official weights and measures of the 1785/6 copper coins and the écu are:

	weight gr	diameter mm
liard	3.058	22
demi sol	6,117	25
sol	12.235	28-30
ecu	29.448	41

Which means that when the weight seems to fit (a worn coin should actually be lighter than the official weight, but I guess the weight was rounded), the diameter doesn't and when the diameter fits, the weight, design and metal doesn't. We can also exclude that the host is a counter, since they are brass and generally around 25-32 mm. I think we can also exclude a medal, because the host should be rather thin, while medals tend to be thick, but that is debatable.

Unless there is a measuring error, I am getting suspicious.

Peter

[MattEdge]

Those specs are very helpful thank you.

I passed this on to the owner- apparently he estimated the size at 40mm- it could be as little as 30mm. The weight and material he says are correct. I have asked him to take a ruler to it! Subject to accurate measurement I expect it to be a sol, as assessed my Glendinings.

I am waiting to see the Glendinings valuation- they believe it to be original and have estimated the value at €6000-€8000 !!!

For my own information I would still like to find some mention of this minting, as I am sure I have come across it somewhere before.

Matt

[Hong]

Hi, I'm quite late to this thread but was wondering if anyone can contact MattEdge as I'm writing a journal article on the 1842 keping. I want to include the image of that piece so I was hoping to get permission to use it

Hong

[Figleaf]

Sorry to disappoint, Hong. MattEdge hasn't been seen here since 2012. You can try to contact him with a PM.

Peter

[Hong]

Yeah, I tried but as of now no reply. The thing that confuses me is that by 2012 Glendinnings had long since been defunct. Not sure if Matt meant an ex-Glendinnings expert now in Bonhams but currently trying everything. If all else fails I'll probably get someone to do a detailed sketch to avoid copyright laws. I'm also in contact with a representative of the Brooke family so I guess I'll see how far I can get. Will update if I find out anything new. Though thanks for the reply Peter, hope you're well.

Hong