Author Topic: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945  (Read 10012 times)

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Offline plasticman

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2015, 07:21:08 PM »
None of the images in this thread look very much like the vulcanised fibre I know, and I wonder whether referring to them as 'fibre' is misleading. Clearly there are differing properties of the ones shown but maybe they are all variations on the ceramic type material? My three are all from the same fairly crude material as far as I can see, but does anyone have some in the UK that I could look at?
Colin

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2015, 11:00:57 PM »
That would be in the London (the one in the UK) area. I would like to encourage any member in that area who has these coins to contact Colin by PM. Thank you in advance.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline plasticman

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2015, 11:09:35 PM »
Actually I am based in Shrewsbury, UK but can travel to London easily!
Colin

Offline andyg

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2015, 11:56:51 PM »
just down the road.. and I have a pair of these - doubt they are any different though!
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline malj1

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2015, 05:50:28 AM »
I agree these don't look like the usual fibre tokens. As Chinasmith said they are known as Magnasite.

It is also listed by the same name in this catalogue:

 World War II Remembered: History in Your Hands, a Numismatic Study: Fred Schwan, Joseph E. Boling

Here is a scan of the entire section on these particular pieces.
Malcolm
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Offline malj1

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2015, 06:19:16 AM »
Trust the army to come up with a catchy name. The Manchukuo coins have a very different feel. More like buttons. The BAF tokens feel more like packaging material.

Peter

As mentioned above these BAF tokens are made of CP3 material; commonly used at the time as an insulation board in radios and components during WW2 and in fact during the entire 1930-50's period; later for the printed circuit boards of transistor radios.

A later version of this type of board is now known by trade names, Formica or Laminex; this of course has a decorative layer or finish added.


Malcolm
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Offline Figleaf

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2015, 05:10:03 PM »
I agree these don't look like the usual fibre tokens. As Chinasmith said they are known as Magnasite.

See reply #13. It looks like magnasite is the wrong answer.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Offline malj1

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2015, 08:38:15 PM »
That's taken out of context. I was pointing out that the catalogue I quoted was using this name, Magnasite, not that I agreed with it.
Malcolm
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Offline plasticman

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2015, 11:45:46 AM »
I have had a chance to examine Andy's Manzhouguo coins - they are the same material as mine (although much better quality moulding). I shall try to get mine analysed for metallic elements which might throw a little more light on the subject.

Offline malj1

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2015, 11:06:38 PM »
It certainly will be good to see the results of an analysis to have an answer to this question.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline plasticman

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2015, 05:03:28 PM »
Well, I have conducted an FTIR analysis on one of these and the reflectance spectrum quite clearly shows that these coins are based on rubber ! I was somewhat surprised as this hasn't been suggested as far as I can see, so I incinerated one and discovered that it is 46% mineral ash. So, this suggests that the fraction that burnt off was just over 50% and probably based on rubber and sulphur (which vulcanises the rubber). Certainly the fumes that came off the crucible smelled of burning rubber. As sulphur is increasingly added to rubber, the composite material gets harder and more rigid until at about 30%, the mixture is called Vulcanite or Ebonite. As we know, Vulcanite has been used to make tokens for decades, especially in South America. Magnesium Carbonate was a very common mineral added to Vulcanite in the  manufacturing process.
Rubber is a sap from trees and during WWII many countries had shortages of rubber so they experimented with the sap from various other plants including the common dandelion. The other odd thing is that these coins are described as 'fibre', and the fraction that burnt off under incineration might have included a fibre. I shall continue to investigate and shall report back to this forum.

Offline malj1

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2015, 11:16:12 PM »
Interesting results I look forward to hearing more.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline natko

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2016, 11:54:17 AM »
Here's my piece. I stumbled across many of them these years but wanted to find an about XF example.

I'd like to hear more about the composition, similarities to Japanese clay coins etc. These indeed seem more crumbly.


Offline Afrasi

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2016, 01:22:11 PM »
The catalogue shown by Mal gives the diameter of the coins being 16 and 19 mm. My pieces however show a large range of the diameter and also of the thickness and the weight:

1 Fen 16.2 mm, 1.6 mm, 0.56 g
1 Fen 17.0-17.2 mm, 2.05 mm, 0.74 g

5 Fen 19.0 mm, 1.7 mm, 0.83 g
5 Fen 19.1 mm, 1.9 mm, 0.93 g
5 Fen 19.8-20.0 mm, 2.35 mm, 1.12 g


Offline plasticman

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Re: Manzhouguo fibercoinage 1944-1945
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2016, 12:54:28 PM »
The ones that I have seen all seem to be based on the same material. As I reported above, this is a mineral filled rubber based compound. I assume that a non metallic material was used because of the wartime shortages of metals, but I also assume there was a shortage of normal rubber too. However we learn from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum_kok-saghyz  that in Russia between 1931 and 1950 Taraxacum (a species of dandelion) was extensively cultivated for rubber. I managed to obtain a piece of Russian Dandelion rubber and had it tested using FTIR, which suggested that it was very similar to conventional rubber. Manchoukuo is nowhere near Kazakhstan where the Russian dandelions grow but growing trials were conducted in the USA and presumably 'dandelion rubber' was not unknown in Japan and elsewhere. The climate in Manchoukuo is suitable for dandelion growing, and Wiki tells us that rubber moulding was an industry there in the 1930s. The mineral filler includes magnesium and magnesite (magnesium carbonate) was mined in the area.
So, I am confident that the Manchoukuo coins that I have seen are made from a composition based on rubber and magnesite. Circumstantial evidence suggests that the rubber might have been grown locally in the form of 'Russian Dandelion'.