Author Topic: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"  (Read 26023 times)

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Offline malj1

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2011, 11:44:31 PM »
A contemporary account of the gold coins issued in 1965 from the Isle of Man Weekly Times, 2nd July 1965.




[and a couple other cuttings are on my site].
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 02:31:26 AM by malj1 »
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2011, 11:44:39 PM »
Is that Afrasi on the reverse?

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Offline Prosit

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2011, 11:47:26 PM »
Not quite a New Year coin but pretty close  ;) I like it.
Dale


My latest IOM purchase...
I guess it's not to everybody's taste :)

Offline andyg

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2011, 11:50:07 PM »
"The last pre-decimal Isle of Man coin was a penny, issued in 1859."

Oddly, although the 1839 coins were withdrawn in 1840 that statement is (almost) correct, further issues of the 1839 penny were in 1841 and 1859; the halfpenny in 1841 and 1860; the farthing in 1841, 1860 and 1864  They were not circulation coins though.

So I request the following amendment please,
"The last circulation pre-decimal Isle of Man coins were struck in 1839, but a few trials / patterns exist struck between 1841 and 1864."

All the trials / patterns are exceedingly rare.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2011, 12:00:37 AM »
Well, I've made that change, but I'm still far from finished and am downing tools for today. What a long topic! Let's hope I can finish it tomorrow...
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Offline andyg

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2011, 12:08:37 AM »
"Between 1679 and 1859, the Isle of Man issued tokens and coins "

hehe, the John Murray tokens were dated 1668 (so I presume they were issued around then)
The 1679 date is when an act of Tynwald was passed outlawing all the tokens in circulation on the island, except the John Murray tokens.   Using 1859 as a cut off date is also problematical, see previous notes!
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2011, 11:35:59 AM »
The catalogues tell me that the car on the 1997 two pound coin is a Jaguar Ferrari. I was rather alarmed when I read this, because back in the 1960s (the only time that I took any notice of cars) the Jaguar and the Ferrari were two different beasts, so I am shocked to hear that they are now cross-bred. Perhaps someone can explain how this came about?
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Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2011, 11:43:44 AM »
"Between 1679 and 1859, the Isle of Man issued tokens and coins "

hehe, the John Murray tokens were dated 1668 (so I presume they were issued around then)
The 1679 date is when an act of Tynwald was passed outlawing all the tokens in circulation on the island, except the John Murray tokens.

That's why I chose the date of 1679, as you could say that is when all the tokens became official.

   Using 1859 as a cut off date is also problematical, see previous notes!

The reason I used the date 1859 is because Numismaster shows that the Victorian penny was issued from 1839 to 1859. Having looked again, I now see that the halfpenny was issued until 1860! So surely they couldn't have existed if Manx authorities had truly banned Manx coinage in 1840? I'm confused...
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Offline malj1

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2011, 12:41:17 PM »
That's why I chose the date of 1679, as you could say that is when all the tokens became official.

The reason I used the date 1859 is because Numismaster shows that the Victorian penny was issued from 1839 to 1859. Having looked again, I now see that the halfpenny was issued until 1860! So surely they couldn't have existed if Manx authorities had truly banned Manx coinage in 1840? I'm confused...

Fred Pridmore in his The British Commonwealth of Nations, Pt1 European Territories states...

    The last local coinage struck for the island was issued in 1839 and consisted of pence, halfpence and farthings. Up to the time of this issue, fourteen Manx pence was the equivalent of one English shilling. When the 1839 copper coins were introduced it was ordered that only twelve Manx pence were to be the equivalent of one shilling. The apparent loss of two pence in the shilling caused considerable dissatisfaction among the inhabitants. To avoid further trouble, the local copper coinage was demonetized and by an Act of the Tynwald dated 4 May, 1840 Manx currency was replaced by British on the 21st September, 1840.

" That from and after Monday, 21st of September next, all copper coin of the currency of this island, passing after the rate of fourteen pence or twenty-eight halfpence for the shilling British, shall cease to be current. Given at Government House, the 4th day of May, 1840. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN.—J. Ready."


Maud Lister says in her paper entitled Manx Money says....

    Between 1841 and 1864 inclusive, a number of mules were struck from the obverse of the current pence, halfpence and farthings, and the reverse of the 1839 Manx issue. These pieces are usually described as patterns.   

Manx Museum - J D Clucas coll. catalaogue says....

    MULES
    These coins combine the obverses and reverses of different issues. The last is one which appeared about 1850 when Boulton's Soho Mint at Birmingham—where much Manx coinage had been produced—was sold. It is possibly a pattern produced by Wyon for use in India.

   
I have read that there were lots of strange concoctions made at the Soho mint at that time along with restrikes, many from rusty dies.

Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2011, 12:54:28 PM »
So this is what I now have:

"Between 1679 and 1859, the Isle of Man issued tokens and coins that were legal tender and circulated alongside British coins. The last circulation pre-decimal Isle of Man coins were struck in 1839, but there are a few trials / patterns in existence that were struck between 1841 and 1864."

I think that is probably an accurate description for the official issues. Anybody who is interested can also read our discussion in this topic, of course.
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Offline malj1

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2011, 01:05:06 PM »
I feel you should alter that 1859 to read 1839 or perhaps 1840 as all IOM coins and tokens ceased to be legal tender from that latter date.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Offline <k>

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2011, 01:10:24 PM »
I feel you should alter that 1859 to read 1839 or perhaps 1840 as all IOM coins and tokens ceased to be legal tender from that latter date.

Yes, I missed that.  I am suffering from Isle of Man fatigue  :( - and still two sets to go  :-\
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Offline andyg

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2011, 01:30:53 PM »
I feel you should alter that 1859 to read 1839 or perhaps 1840 as all IOM coins and tokens ceased to be legal tender from that latter date.

Whilst at the other end no tokens were issued in 1679...
I'm not sure that any tokens were made officially - just that they were excluded from the act.
Does Pridmore mention why the John Murray pieces were excluded?  An oversight or intentionally?
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Offline malj1

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2011, 01:45:33 PM »
Pridmore just gives a brief mention that 'this token issues was raised to the status of legal tender by an act of Tynwald on the 24th June, 1679.'

Maud Lister gives a much better account...

  During the second half of the seventeenth century there was a large circulation of Irish issues in the Isle of Man, consisting chiefly of the copper pieces known as St. Patrick's half pence and farthings, and of small brass halfpenny tokens commonly called " Butcher's Brass" on account of the pieces bearing a representation of the Butchers' Arms. These tokens were  issued in Dublin and in Limerick. In a pamphlet in Trinity College, Dublin it is stated in regard to these "Butchers' Halfpence," that one man who issued them, counterfeited his own tokens in the ratio of 10 forgeries to one genuine one; which forgeries he refused to redeem, on the ground that they were false, and, the pamphlet states, this resulted in a loss of little less .than £1,000 to the City of Dublin.
  So much of the base Butchers' brass had got into circulation in the Isle of Man by 1697,  that Tynwald enacted that " no copper or brass money called Butchers' halfpence, Patrick halfpence and copper farthings, or any other of that nature, shall pass in the Island after the 1st day of Jan. next " but added that this should not hinder the passage of . . . the brass money called Jno. Murrey's pence, which was still to pass according to order. Thus "Johnnie Murrey's penny," as it is known in the island, which began as a token, was raised to the status of a legal coin by this Tynwald Act. It is a very scarce piece, and when found, is usually in poor condition. Its scarcity, I think, is due to the fact that when, in 1733 all former issues were declared to be no longer current, a later John Murrey, son or grandson of the issuer, redeemed the tokens. This little coin is not attractive in appearance; those specimens which I have seen being poorly struck.   
  It was issued in two varieties in brass and I have seen the statement that it occurs in copper but have not seen such a one. One variety has on the obverse IOHN MURREY 1668, within a circle, round the rim, and HIS PENNY I+.M within a dotted, circle;- on the R the Three Legs within a dotted circle, surrounded by QUOCUNQUE GESSERIS STABIT, within an outer circle. The second variety is said to be similar on the obverse, but on the R (instead of the Three Legs) has of DOUGLAS IN MAN.


I may post the entire paper on my web site tomorrow as it dates back to 1947.
Malcolm
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Offline andyg

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Re: Comments on "Milestones in the decimal coinage of The Isle of Man"
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2011, 02:34:02 PM »
Coincraft adds this;

Oswalds 'Vestigia' notes:  "No insular money was ever recorded until 1679, when Govenor Murrey's copper penny became legal tender"  The coinage was redeemed in 1710 by Murrey's grandson, another John Murrey prior to the issue of the Derby coinage, using security depositied by the original John Murrey for this purpose.
always willing to trade modern UK coins for modern coins from elsewhere....