Author Topic: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006  (Read 3781 times)

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Offline Overlord

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee on internet with strange date
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 05:33:08 PM »
Your coin has very broadly cut calligraphy compared to mine & the Zeno one, also from Surat , & as you pointed out the mint is off the flan so I wonder if perhaps it's from a different mint & as they are all of the same year AH1060 then I would doubt the die cutting would be so varied ?
Vic
Why I think it could be of Surat mint is because I do not remember seeing this obverse "ornament" on a square area type Rupee of another mint. While this symbol does not occur on all square-area type Rupees of Surat, it seems to me to be typical of that mint. Here are some more specimens from the same mint for comparison. That said, I haven't seen enough coins to be absolutely sure. Perhaps Oesho would be able to confirm or deny this.

Also, the placement and style of the AH and Regnal years on the three coins appears too similar to be a coincidence to me.

Offline Overlord

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee on internet with strange date
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2011, 06:16:56 PM »
Found a twin brother of my coin (the middle one here. Unfortunately, the mint name is also off on this one.

What is interesting to observe on the two error coins and this one is the presence of another common ornament (off on my specimen) over the "sin" of Rasool on the obverse.


From the examples I found on the Internet, I observe the following:

1. Square-area type Rupees of Surat from at least AH1051/RY 14 appear to show both of these ornaments. (I could not find an example of AH1050/RY 14). On the earlier coins, these seem to be absent. See, for example,

AH1050, RY 13
AH 1049, RY 13
AH1047, RY 10
AH1046, RY 9
AH1045, RY 9
AH1044, RY 7 (scroll down the page)
AH1043/RY 7

There is a specimen on which just the AH year (1051) can be observed (find here) that has only one of these ornaments and appaers to be a "transition" piece.

2. From AH1051/RY 14 onwards, these two ornaments seem to appear consistently on the coins, till the very end of the series in AH1069/32 (see examples below), though their forms differ a bit (the sprig-like ornament seems to become comma-like in the last few years). The very last example shows the first ornament as four dots.

AH1069/RY32, example 1
AH1069/RY32, example 2
AH1069/RY32, example 2

I wonder if the appearance of these ornaments indicates a significant event, such as the change of the mint master.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2011, 04:04:57 PM by Overlord »

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee on internet with strange date
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2011, 06:28:16 PM »
Lots of information you sorted out there !  ;D

The ornaments certainly seem to be attributed to coins struck at Surat, I just thought that in any given year they would be more or less very similar but maybe it's not the case.

Bit confused by AH1049/ RY13 & 1045/RY9  from Akbarnagar mint
Vic

Offline Overlord

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee on internet with strange date
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2011, 04:57:44 AM »
Bit confused by AH1049/ RY13 & 1045/RY9  from Akbarnagar mint
Thanks for pointing this out. I had multiple tabs open and seem to have messed up the links.  :-[
Will fix them this evening.

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee on internet with strange date
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2011, 11:08:13 AM »
It's so easily done,  I've botched quite a few of my posts with either uploading the same side of a coin twice, uploading a blank photo because I saved the 'cut' & not the 'paste' when I edited it ::) & numerous other mishaps.


looking at Zeno database I wonder why they don't allow new New user registrations ?
Vic

Offline asm

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2011, 02:24:29 PM »
New users are regularly been added but not from the main menu. Write to the moderator / charm  charm@postman.ru

In case you are not successful, please drop me a PM.

Amit
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Offline Overlord

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 04:11:09 PM »
Fixed the links and added a few more examples. What is interesting is that one of the ornaments also appears on a coin dated AH1049 (image here).

The mint staff of AH1060 appear to be a curious lot. The die cutters get the year wrong or more than one die, and where they do get it right, the other fellows miss the mint name altogether.  ;D

Offline capnbirdseye

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 05:58:44 PM »

The mint staff of AH1060 appear to be a curious lot. The die cutters get the year wrong on more than one die, and where they do get it right, the other fellows miss the mint name altogether.  ;D

There doesn't seem to be much, if any, information about die cutters from the Mughal era, I read in one of my books regarding costing for 19th century Bikanir state hammered coinage that the cost of cutting a die was just 4 Annas, it also says that one die makes 6000 coins ! The engraver earned 7  Rupees per month but the mint store keeper earned 10 Rupees per month so the engravers skill counted for little.

 There is no doubt that some were vastly more skilled than others, just looking at some of the beautiful ornaments & animals on coins of Jahangir shows how skilled some of them were
 I wonder what happens to a die to make it get discarded, maybe it slowly gets compressed and begins to expand so that the impression on the coins begins to get shallower & the lettering wider?

Vic


Vic

Offline Figleaf

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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2011, 11:22:39 PM »
Dies wear from use. The cheapest solution is to replace them. There are other reasons for discarding a die, like a new ruler, a new year, die cutting errors and cracked or broken dies.

The most likely reason for not discarding a faulty die is haste: the ruler suddenly needed a lot of money. This often happens when military expenditure shoots up.

Peter
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Re: Shah Jahan Rupee with date error AH1006
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2011, 12:26:22 AM »
Evidence suggest that a die would take a day to engrave. It also suggests that 6000 coins or more could be made from the one die.

These is a need to study certain 'ornaments' and engravings on Rupees and various other devices for want of a better word. perhaps a look at the records of the Shroffs would bear some fruit. Someone who knows the Armenian used at this time would be helpful.