French Ecus Louis XIV

[rorey36]

How to recognize fakes French  Ecu Louis XIV
Regards.
Roberto

[Figleaf]

Badly made fakes, both. There should not be an X above the head, nor any text (apparently remnants of SIT NOMEN DOMINI BENEDICTVM legend) above the crowns on the double L's. I wish all fakes were so easy to spot.

Peter

[saro]

Just a small remark : the fact that there are parts of a remnant legend on a silver Ecu of Louis XIV doesn't necessary indicate that it's a fake; under the reign of Louis XIV, according to a law, the silver Ecu were struck over older coins of the same size, but with a new type, that was called "réformation".
The old coins were said "récriées", that is to say "not for use in the market"; people have to bear their coins to the royal mint and have to pay a tax for this "réformation". New coins often show traces of the previous legends.
A coin may have been re-struck 2 (or even 3) times...
Successive types are well known and it isn't possible to have a former type overstruck on a later, if you see that, then, sure it's a fake..

[Figleaf]

Quite right, saro, but there is more here. The X could only have come from the king's reign number (LOUIS XIIII), but the X is immediately followed by an I. The I is a narrow letter and there is place above the head for it. There is no reason why the X should appear quite clearly and the I not at all.

Peter

[translateltd]

There is definitely the trace of something vertical after the X, and I could be easily convinced it was the older legend LVD XI... still showing through.

[Figleaf]

Tried to find an écu with the small letters SIT very close to the border, as visible on the other coin.  The letters all seem to be of similar size. Those on the écu aux trois couronnes (Dy 1568) seem close to the edge, but that is a later type than the écu aux huit L shown. Those on the écu de Flandres (Dy 1561) are close also and a later type. Dy 1560 is too rare to be a candidate and struck later also. All types have normal size letters. Or do you think the flan for an écu was stamped with the die of a demi-écu?

Peter

[translateltd]

Tried to find an écu with the small letters SIT very close to the border, as visible on the other coin.  The letters all seem to be of similar size. Those on the écu aux trois couronnes (Dy 1568) seem close to the edge, but that is a later type than the écu aux huit L shown. Those on the écu de Flandres (Dy 1561) are close also and a later type. Dy 1560 is too rare to be a candidate and struck later also. All types have normal size letters. Or do you think the flan for an écu was stamped with the die of a demi-écu?

Not sure I really follow this, but that's by the by.  All I was pointing out was that there does indeed seem to be "something after the X", contrary to your claim above.  I've got used to squinting at "phantom" detail since looking for the missing date on the proof NZ 10c a day or two ago.

[Figleaf]

We're not on the same page, Martin. There's an upper coin with an X that does not seem to be followed by anything. There's a lower coin, also with an X, followed by something that could be a I (though it looks too fat to me) that has the word SIT (from sit nomen domini benedictus) in small letters at a place where it doesn't belong.

Peter

[Figleaf]

Twelve years later and a little wiser, I revisited this page with better software and a better screen. That swept away practically all my doubts, in particular because I now saw the D of LVD preceding the X on both coins. Saro and translateltd were right. They are both overstruck on an older coin and genuine. My only remaining issue is that I cannot identify a host with a small legend lettering very close to the edge of the flan.

The top coin is Duplessy 1506, écu 1686, Paris. The bottom coin is Duplessy 1514A, écu 1690 Bayonne.

Peter