Identifying Indian Coins, A Discussion: Baroda 1/2 rupee, AH1288, Ref: Y#20

Started by Figleaf, November 24, 2007, 10:56:39 AM

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Figleaf

I feel this one should have been really easy, but no...

It's silver, 5.75 grams, around 16 mm.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Rangnath

The coin is beautiful Peter.  Why couldn't they have made the letters smaller so that more of it could have been readable?

If the date is to read X128 AH, then the posible date is about 1717 AD.  If the date is to be read 128X AH, then, if we guess in the middle between 1 and 9, the approximate AD date would be something like 1869. A bi-lingual coin.  The nagari script reads something like maa gaa or even naa gaa but what about the dot within the "ga"? 

Hopefully Oesho is still in town. 
But darn it! This is DOABLE!
richie

Rangnath

Peter or Aidan, have you a decent catalog? 
I suspect the coin is a half rupee of Jayaji Rao of Gwalior, 1843 to 1886. 1259 AH to 1304 AH.
That would make the date on the coin 128X, which works just fine. The weight, size and style are right.   
This may be what is called an anonymous issue. It may or may not be in the standard world catalog, but it is worth looking.
richie

Prosit

I wish you guys would take a moment and take a coin like this and draw arrows to this part and to other parts and tell me what the heck I am looking at.  I am interested, curious and this in a nice looking coin but at my house, ignorance is running rampant!

Dale


Rangnath

Sorry Dale.  I'll draw a diagram about what I would like to see later this evening.

Aidan, when I look at Numismaster, there are Km numbers for the following half rupees that might fit the dates 1843 to 1886, but without images.
Km 236, 150, 151, and 51.  And, when I look in the Fitzwilliam Museum collection, I can see several coins from Gwalior that are identical to the km numbers assigned in the standard catalog.  Your 1981 catalog is better than not having any, which is my situation but I think it is missing some recent adds.
richie

Rangnath

Dale,
My diagram will have to wait till tomorrow.
richie

Figleaf

Quote from: dalehall on November 25, 2007, 03:25:51 AM
I wish you guys would take a moment and take a coin like this and draw arrows to this part and to other parts and tell me what the heck I am looking at.  I am interested, curious and this in a nice looking coin but at my house, ignorance is running rampant!

Great question, Dale, thanks for bringing this up, but we haven't come very far yet. There are three elements of importance on this coin.

1) In the upper frame are what remains of two devanagari characters. Rangnath reads them like maa gaa or naa gaa
2) In the lower frame are three Arabic numbers: 128 (they are listed in almost any KM catalogue). The number is too high to be a regnal year. It may be a date with a missing number, like (1)128 AH or (less likely) 128(x) AH. KM explains how to convert Islamic dates to Christian dates and it also contains a table where you can look up the one if you have the other.
3) On the other side is what looks like the Arabic letter ya to me (a sort of a fish hook with two dots) with a six-petalled flower inside. The flower may well be a mintmark. Other letters are partly visible.

This is a half or quarter rupee struck with the dies of a rupee, so most of the die is not on the coin. If the coin gets identified, it will be possible to reconstruct the whole die. This either takes a full flan coin or a number of coins of this type that show the different parts of the die. Oesho's great strength is that he is aware of many of the whole dies. His method is to recognize the issuing authority first, which he does by looking at style, execution and characteristics. He then locates the exact type, with the help of his catalogues, which gives him the complete text, including all clues to the mint. Last, he compares this with what is on the coin for additional detail, such as mint, year of issue and variant.
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Figleaf

Thanks for joining the chase, Rangnath. I checked Gwalior in KM. There are a few types with devanagari characters, but none with a date 128x. There is a regnal year 28 coin (C238), but without illustration. I suspect it looks like the rupee KM 152, which is no match. There is a rupee with the combination 128 but it has no devanagari characters. Moreover, Gwalior used a 5-petalled slower with clear leaves as mintmark, but not a six-petalled dotty flower.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Oesho

Dear All, you were searching at the wrong place. It's an half rupee of Malhar Rao (AH1287-1292/AD1870-1875) of Baroda State. The Nagari initials read Ma Ga (Malhar Roa Gaekwar). The date is AH1288. The last digit is shown very weak, but is still visible. Ref.: Y#20.

Rangnath

Once Sheik Nazruddin lost his house key in the bushes between his house and his neighbor's. A friend observed the Sheik searching underneath a street light.  What are looking for? asked the friend. 
I am looking for my house key.  I lost it in the bushes over there. 
Then, why are looking for the house key here? asked the friend.
Because there is more light here! exclaimed Sheik Nazruddin.

I knew what I was looking for, but I had more examples under Gwalior state.
sheik richie

Rangnath

#10
Dale,
I am a bloody neophyte at reading Arabic.  So take what I say with a grain of salt.
We read Nagari script (sanskrit, Hindi and similar languages) from right to left as with English. 
We read Arabic from left to right.  With hammered coins, usually the plate is much larger than the flan. Not all of the message gets printed on the coin.  Sometimes, not much at all of the message gets printed. 

But, if we know what the message is, we can read it just like you can read "isn't it"  as "is it not".
Several of the hammered copper coins posted were struck in the name of Shah Alam II.  So the diagram is intended to help you with that phrase: Shah Alam.
If I failed you, I am sorry!
richie

Rangnath


Figleaf

#12
And thanks Oesho for another great ID!

I have found a more complete die in KM (Y 21a), so I can show you now how this coin fits in and why it looks different from the illustration in KM. Just open this page in two different windows and compare the original illustration with the picture below. Note the devanagari characters Maa Gaa that identify the ruler as Oesho indicated. Note also the second Arabic 8 of the date, which appears weakly struck, or perhaps re-cut on a 1287 die. Note how even this broad flan (nazarana) rupee shows only part of the die. Only the nazarana 4 rupees show the whole die, but it's incompletely illustrated in KM.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Oesho

Imagine this was a half rupee, how much would be on the flan of a 1/8 of a rupee?
The full text on the obverse reads: Sena Khas Khel, Shamsher Bahadur (Champion Swordsman and Chief of the Special Troops),  the family title of the Gaikwars.
It was after the suppression of the Indian Mutiny (as the British would call it; Indians would call it the first Great Freedom fight) of 1857, the Mughal emperor?s name was removed from the coins and, in the case of Baroda, replaced by the family title of the Gaikwars.
Other Princely States adopted the name of the British monarch on their coins. Bharatpur even put the effigy of Queen Victoria on their coins (ref.: KM#156). For some States it was too much to adopt the name of the Queen Victoria on their coins and, as in the case of Mewar (Udaipur), only Dosti London (Friend of London) was mentioned on their coins (ref.: Y#11). Another State, Gwalior, continued to strike posthumous coins in the name of Shah Alam II at their mint at Ujjain till 1896, 90 years after the this emperor has expired. It?s curious to know that they issued coins right-up to the 100th regnal year of Shah Alam II (AH1173/?74 = 1856/?57).  The only change they made, when the British became the paramount power in India, to start with regnal year 1 and continued this till the 38th regnal year.(Ref.: KM#245)

Rangnath

Thanks Figleaf, for your suggestion. 
The subject title has been changed.
Perhaps this topic might help some of us with problems with Persian and Nagari on Indian Hammered coins.
richie