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Rather out

Started by FosseWay, September 29, 2022, 08:01:57 AM

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FosseWay

Quote from: brandm24 on September 28, 2022, 10:54:17 PMGreat information, guys. This coin was in a small lot of other political counterstamps...UVF on an Irish coin, RATHER NOT on an English 2p, and this one.

"RATHER NOT" is such a cornily British protest to something!  ;D

Do you have any idea of what the stamper would rather not have? Brexit? Or is it old enough to be from the first EEC referendum?

brandm24

I'm still thinking on that one. I suppose it could be either or even something else. I'll post a picture of it because the placement of the Rather Not is interesting. Maybe it'll tell you something I'm not seeing.

Bruce
Always Faithful

brandm24

Here's the coin...a 1977 2p. Interesting that the slogan is "surrounding" the badge of the Prince of Wales, although I'm not sure that means anything.

It's hard to tell when it was counterstamped but it looks like it's been there for some time. If I'm right, these 2p coins still circulate today so that doesn't help us date the stamp. While we can't ever know the meaning of it do you think it could be a Troubles piece? Anti-Unionist maybe?

Bruce
rsz_rather_out_1.jpgrsz_rather_out_2.jpg 
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FosseWay

The host coin does still circulate. It could be Brexit-related, though there is no lustre visible in the depths of the punch marks, and any Brexit-related stamp must have been made in the last 6 years.

On the other hand, it can't be related to the first EU/EEC referendum, as the coin is from 1977 and that referendum took place in 1975.

It seems a bit vague to be a Troubles-related piece - don't they usually say what they mean in forthright, if abbreviated, terms?

It could be Scottish independence-related - there've been two referendums on that in this coin's lifetime.

brandm24

Quote from: FosseWay on September 29, 2022, 11:29:52 AMThe host coin does still circulate. It could be Brexit-related, though there is no lustre visible in the depths of the punch marks, and any Brexit-related stamp must have been made in the last 6 years.

On the other hand, it can't be related to the first EU/EEC referendum, as the coin is from 1977 and that referendum took place in 1975.

It seems a bit vague to be a Troubles-related piece - don't they usually say what they mean in forthright, if abbreviated, terms?

It could be Scottish independence-related - there've been two referendums on that in this coin's lifetime.
The statement is a bit vague in any case, but the meaning of Troubles stamps aren't always clear either. I have a few "translators" in the UK who have told me in a number of cases what a slogan or acronym means. They've been very helpful to me.

I hadn't though about the Scottish independence movement so thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Bruce
Always Faithful

Figleaf

Just for the sake of completeness, the punch says RATHER OUT, which is marginally clearer than rather not. The state of the coin gave me another idea. The pitting on one side and discolouration remind me strongly of mudlarking.

Imagine the scene. A Southwark Londoner, in apparent state of intoxication finds he's been passed a political statement as small change in the dark outside the pub. Disgusted, he throws it towards the Thames with all the power left in him. His ears register a satisfactory splash, so he goes in (contrary to the advice on the coin) to have another pint. When ebb comes, the coin lies on the surface of a mud flat, waiting for a mudlark and his metal detector.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

brandm24

I bought an old William III penny from a mudlark a year or so ago. He lives in London and was a member of the Thames Mudlarks. He found the coin on the north foreshore between Black Friars Bridge and London Bridge. An interesting way to find coins. It looks different than the 2p but it was probably in the river for 250 years or so...that would make a difference. :)

I messed up on the "not / out" thing. Glad I posted a picture of the coin so you could catch the error. My apologies.

Bruce
Always Faithful

brandm24

Here's the old penny I bought from a mudlark mentioned in #6. She's a beauty isn't she?

Bruce
rsz_initials-fleur_de_lis_1.jpg
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FosseWay


Figleaf

If you think that the host coin or token is in the name of William III, that's probably on the strength of the ribbon and the round letter underneath that might indeed once have been a G. Or an O. Or even a Q. Unfortunately, the next letter, which should have been a V if it had been Willemite, is no longer recognisable. If you press me, I'll squeak that William III is indeed the most likely option. :)

I think you were right to buy the coin, though. It was counterstamped with an escutcheon with I•R monogram above a thistle, which is quite likely to refer to James Stuart, the old pretender (Iacobvs Rex Scotorvm). That is all the more fun since it was found on the banks of the Thames, not somewhere in the North. I wonder if it was found near the Tower.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

It needn't be the Old Pretender - it could be the former James II, who lived in exile for almost all of William III's reign. He died in 1701, the year before William.

brandm24

Always Faithful

brandm24

Quote from: Figleaf on September 30, 2022, 02:25:42 PMIf you think that the host coin or token is in the name of William III, that's probably on the strength of the ribbon and the round letter underneath that might indeed once have been a G. Or an O. Or even a Q. Unfortunately, the next letter, which should have been a V if it had been Willemite, is no longer recognisable. If you press me, I'll squeak that William III is indeed the most likely option. :)

I think you were right to buy the coin, though. It was counterstamped with an escutcheon with I•R monogram above a thistle, which is quite likely to refer to James Stuart, the old pretender (Iacobvs Rex Scotorvm). That is all the more fun since it was found on the banks of the Thames, not somewhere in the North. I wonder if it was found near the Tower.

Peter
Do you recognize the I.R monogram by chance? I never identified the second letter as an R so that's a new wrinkle. I, and the seller, both thought the the figure underneath was likely a fleur de lis. Very hard to be sure because the coin is so corroded.

Not sure where the Tower is in relation to Blackfriars but it's on the same side of the Thames at least. It would be ironic wouldn't it?

Bruce
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Figleaf

Quote from: brandm24 on September 30, 2022, 04:32:28 PMNot sure where the Tower is in relation to Blackfriars but it's on the same side of the Thames

Since there's a bridge at Blackfriars, it's sort of on both sides, but the mud flats there are on the South side, diagonally opposite the Tower. It's about half an hour on foot from the Tower (I was actually lodged at St. Catherine's docks, but that's close to the Tower) and that bridge, so it's not a distance you can throw, but for long, there were ferry piers in the area around Blackfriars (now St Mary Overy's dock) and they becomes a major suspect now.

The plant wouldn't be a heraldic fleur-de-lis, because its left and right tips turn down.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

brandm24

I should have said that the coin was found on the north shore the same side of the Thames where the Tower is.

Bruce
Always Faithful