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Gun money

Started by Figleaf, September 25, 2018, 11:20:32 AM

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Figleaf

Didn't find a separate discussion of gun money to attach these pictures to. That's surprising. We found that the price of the gun money series had risen to a level worthy of ridicule, considering that metal detectorists still find a fair number of them. Now, I was told that metal detectoring is forbidden in Ireland (stupid!), but I take the Irish for flexible enough to make that a relative problem only ;)

Anyway, in short, when James II and William III were fighting out the question of who's the boss in England on Irish land, the cash-strapped James II had copper and brass objects melted and turned into coins. To a degree, this was due to the failure of his second wife, Mary of Modena to get financial support from the supporters of catholicism. Louis XIV at least gave her a group of expendable French soldiers, but successive popes gave her nothing.

The coins are emergency issues. Interestingly, they carry a month in addition to the year. Historians believe that Jams intended to exchange them for silver coins month by month once he was back on the throne. That dream ended on the banks of the Boyne. William declared the gun money coins valid for about their intrinsic value, which was relatively nice of him but still absolutely ruined the followers of James and deepened Irish poverty.

While the story of the gun money coins is relatively well known, I discovered that the national coin collection in Collins barracks included some off-metal gun money coins I did not know existed: a crown and a shilling 1690 struck in gold and a shilling 1690 in silver.

It makes no sense at all to strike emergency coins in gold or silver. The museum ticket speculated that they may have been made to obtain approval or that the dies were found after the battle and used to make souvenir pieces. The latter speculation seems more likely to me.

My images below are rights free, provided they are used for non-commercial purposes.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

An aside, but quite an important one, about the dating.

The English dating system (but not the Scottish) at the time of the Gun Money issues followed the Julian calendar and had New Year's Day on 25 March. Not only does this mean that Gun Money coins dated January or February are given a "misleading" year date by our reckoning, but also there were two Marches per calendar year. Even the display at the Collins Barracks didn't get this completely right, as it stated that March 1689 was followed by April 1690.

Actually, 1-24 March 1689 were followed by 25-31 March 1690. Coins struck in "March 1690" are therefore datable to one week in the spring of that year by our dating system, not three and a half weeks in 1691, by which time James had long since lost the Battle of the Boyne and disappeared into exile. I don't know whether March 1690 coins command a premium - one might presume that there are fewer of them because of the shorter period, but the issuance of Gun Money may be sufficiently spasmodic at other times for the time difference not to be significant.

bagerap

The March 1960 is most certainly the shortest dated coin that I've encountered. (There may be some siege pieces used for a similarly short time.)

Checking back I find that of the 18 Gun Money pieces I have sold, three came from this unique date, a fact I strongly emphasised in the sales copy. However they do not appear to have attracted a noticeable premium.

malj1

#3
I've not looked at these for around thirty years, I do remember this first one was a scruffy gift from a dealer who had no idea what it was.

Crown 1690 12.7g
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

malj1

Half crown Oct 1689 15.8g and another 1689 but month is undecipherable 14.0g
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

malj1

One shilling July 1689 5.2g; Sep. 1689 5.9g; Oct. 1689 6.6g
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

malj1

Limerick besieged 1690-1 halfpenny over struck on large size gunmoney shilling 1691 6.8g

...shame about the nasty scratches.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

Figleaf

TFP @ malj1. Amazing how fast this has turned into a superb thread.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

FosseWay

Like the retrograde И in HIBERИIA - are they all like this or do they exist with the correct N?

Figleaf

The halfpennies all have a retrograde И, but the farthings exist with a correct N also.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

brandm24

This isn't a great example but I've always wanted to add some gunmoney to my collection.

I don't have a working scale, but it's 24.5 mm and brass. It's a shilling and dated September, 1689(?) I'm not sure if any of this type was issued in 1690. Unfortunately, the area of the date is heavily worn and the only part I can read is the "6".

Bruce
Always Faithful

FosseWay

From memory, I think if it's September it has to be 1689. I don't think they were being issued in 1688 and September 1690 is several months after the Battle of the Boyne.

Figleaf

Compare the shilling in reply #5. I think that what you are taking for a 6 is actually the X of XII.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

malj1

Tried to bring it up a bit but too far gone to get any more out of it.
Malcolm
Have a look at  my tokens and my banknotes.

FosseWay

My memory was partially correct  ;D

I was wrong when I said that GM issue stopped after the Battle of the Boyne. Coins exist dated as late as October 1690, so September 1690 is a possible date.

However, 24.5 mm for a shilling puts your coin as a "large" shilling (usually quoted as 25-27 mm). The "small" ones are around 21 mm, i.e. a lot smaller than yours. Large shillings from Dublin are known from July 1689 to April 1690 inclusive.

Small shillings (overstruck on or using blanks originally intended for large-issue sixpences) are known from the Limerick mint until September 1690.

All above info from here.