Cash coins for ID please

[mrbadexample]

Hi all, can someone help me with these please? I was given these as "Chinese copper cash". The first is ø21mm & 3.6g, the second ø25mm and 3.9g. They appear to be cast, metal unknown. I don't know the correct orientation, sorry. Are they actually coins, or tourist pieces?

Any information gratefully received.
Thanks,
MBE

[Figleaf]

Top coin is Chien Lung (1736-1795) tung pao, labour ministry. I don't like the squarish quality of the characters, but don't have a genuine coin at hand for comparison. Emperor Kao Tsung made it to the list of the worlds worst killers.

Bottom coin is Chia Ching (1796-1820) tung pao, Canton (now Guangzhou), Kuang Tung (now Guangdong) provincial mint. This one looks good to me.

Peter

[mrbadexample]

Thanks again Peter. If it makes any difference, the second is probably around ⅔ the thickness of the first. The first also has superfluous metal on the rim, which is what makes me think it is cast.

[Figleaf]

Thickness is of secondary importance. Weight is what counted, though it varied over time. Almost all cash type coins are cast, with a few exceptions only towards the end of their existence. Because of the casting process, using mother coins and because the Chinese were (and are) control freaks, the big safety feature on Chinese coins is that the characters are exactly the same as long as the (grand)mother coins were cut in Peking/Beijing. Most were. However, I am learning that small differences were made frequently to indicate the period in which the coins were cast. This is an area that our member bgriff99 knows all about. You may want to drop him a PM.

Peter

[bgriff99]

Both are genuine, cast of brass.   The first is from one of the two central mints in Beijing.   The "Board of Revenue" operated the main mint, acting as the national treasury.   Your coin is from the "Board of Works", as in public works (aka ministry of labour).   It had three foundries, or branch mints at that point, with different privy markings.   The overall writing detail was changed slightly every year, acting in lieu of placing dates on them.   That system had been used for many centuries.   The writing of this coin is clear, and to the extent my date chart/ reference collection is accurate, this is from the 48th year of reign, 1783.   It is the "auxiliary mint" of the Board of Works (the others were "old" and "new" mints).   The reverse is written in Manchu, a transliteration of the Chinese mint name "Bao Yuan."

The Kwangtung / Guangdong cash uses the initial writing style of its reign, which was then not changed at that mint.    Casting was done in every year of the reign, so it can only be dated to the period 1796-1820 as Peter said.

[mrbadexample]

Many thanks for the detailed information bgriff99.

Do these coins have a denomination, as such?

[bgriff99]

The valuation is just one cash.