Question About French €20 Piedfort Coins

[Bimat]

I recently received a nice French €20 silver piedfort coin (shall show it here soon). The technical details are as below:

Weight: 44.4g, Diameter: 37.0mm, 900/1000 Silver, Proof.

My question is: Since it's advertised and sold as piedfort, does normal version of the same coin (different weight/thickness/diameter) also exist? Can't find any information on MDP's website/other numismatic databases...If it doesn't exist, how can one call it a piedfort coin?

Aditya

[Gerhard Schön]

A quick look into the Euro Coin Catalogue by Gerhard Schön reveals that there would be a normal thickness coin (22.2 g, 37 mm) as well but with 10 euro face value.

[Bimat]

A quick look into the Euro Coin Catalogue by Gerhard Schön reveals that there would be a normal thickness coin (22.2 g, 37 mm) as well but with 10 euro face value.

Thanks Gerhard! But since there's no €20 coin with less weight, the coin I have can't be called a piedfort, right?

The definition of piedfort given here (French term for a coin struck with regular dies on double, sometimes triple thickness planchet. Piedforts are not meant for circulation) does not answer my question...

Aditya

[Figleaf]

You seem to be comparing your cool technical expertise with commercial hot air, as breathed by the pseudo-coin floggers of the Monnaie de Paris. Your approach makes sense, theirs is supposed to make cents.

Peter

[Bimat]

Thanks Peter! How can the French mint deceive collectors so shamelessly? Here's the €20 coin dated 2012 for example, advertised as piedfort and sold for €122!

https://www.monnaiedeparis.fr/fr/node/2448

Someone should drag MDP in consumer court as it is necessarily a case of cheating!

Aditya

[Figleaf]

But that would be difficult. Cases against the state are usually* treated by a separate court system, which is so slow, that the court of human rights has condemned it for not providing justice in a timely manner.

In general, there is less tolerance for commercial flatulence than e.g. in anglo-saxon countries, but enough to make me confidently predict you won't have a chance in court. If you are still alive when the case comes before the court.

Peter

* Depending on the particulars of the case. The courts have decided that if you fall off an escalator in a French airport when coming into France, it is a public case, but when leaving France, it is a private case

[Bimat]

But that would be difficult. Cases against the state are usually* treated by a separate court system, which is so slow, that the court of human rights has condemned it for not providing justice in a timely manner.

In general, there is less tolerance for commercial flatulence than e.g. in anglo-saxon countries, but enough to make me confidently predict you won't have a chance in court. If you are still alive when the case comes before the court.

Peter

* Depending on the particulars of the case. The courts have decided that if you fall off an escalator in a French airport when coming into France, it is a public case, but when leaving France, it is a private case

Thanks Peter...Frankly speaking, I'm quite disappointed by the unethical practice being followed by MDP. They produce some excellent quality coins (whether so many coins are really required is a different issue!)...and I don't think any other EU mint does such cheating...

Aditya

[Guillaume Hermann]

Bimat, in France we numismats use to laugh about Monnaie de Paris...

[Guillaume Hermann]

The Monnaie de Paris is an "établissement public industriel et commercial" and furthermore, in this case, it is acting as a private company in the normal commercial world without extra-powers. So the case would be treated by a civil court.
But I do not think someone wants to try 

[Bimat]

The Monnaie de Paris is an "établissement public industriel et commercial" and furthermore, in this case, it is acting as a private company in the normal commercial world without extra-powers. So the case would be treated by a civil court.
But I do not think someone wants to try 

Since I'm located in India, I can't do anything; but someone should at-least send MDP an e-mail asking them not to misguide the buyers. Perhaps I'll do that myself this weekend. I hope they are as responsive as Austrian Mint/Greek Central Bank etc...

Aditya

[Figleaf]

Reply from HPDP, a most distinguished member of "numismatique":

I don't have more information of course, I imagine that the Monnaie de Paris uses "piedfort" as a commercial term for the planchet used.

The Monnaie de Paris has for years been striking circulating coins, at least in francs and centimes, on different planchets of precious metal, with a weight of twice or thrice of the precious metal planchet rather than the weight of the original coin and called them piedfort; even while the single weight planchet strikes may not have been made.

Perhaps at some time, it was decided that €10 equalled 22 grams of silver, who knows, but even without such a decision, they can create a €20 of 44 grams, with the expression piedfort being a sales term, for quite a limited agio of precious metal: 22 grams at current price: 10 euros for a medal - sorry, the thing is officially circulating - a coin sold for €122.

What is in principle not allowed is to exchange real euros for other than face value. If I make square carton official 3.14 euro pieces, my future may darken ... anyway.

It's a nice medal, there, and I would not pay more or at best significantly more than silver value.

[Guillaume Hermann]

Since I'm located in India, I can't do anything; but someone should at-least send MDP an e-mail asking them not to misguide the buyers. Perhaps I'll do that myself this weekend. I hope they are as responsive as Austrian Mint/Greek Central Bank etc...

Aditya

I am totally pessimistic about the usefulness of your message to them, but if you want, you can send it first to me in English in private, and I will translate it into French for you before you send it (and the opposite for their answer).

As a French, I am sorry about the MdP behaviour, which is very famous in France, and a recurrent theme for jokes.

[Figleaf]

I second that. A message to MdP will most likely never get any reaction, even if it is in french. Even as a government enterprise, rather than part of the government, their attitude towards customers is much more like (un)civil (non-)servants than like supersalesmen

Peter

[Bimat]

Thanks Peter and Paris! I will try to draft a message to MDP this weekend and send it to you both. You may change it as appropriate if necessary and forward it to MDP. I hope they listen to us...

I have no issues with the price tag: whether it's €20 or €120..they are free to sell it for any price, there always be some buyers! But they shouldn't do false advertising, that's my only point!

Aditya

[Bimat]

Here's the image of so called 'piedfort' coin I got. I take the liberty of using image provided by the dealer from whom I got the coin.

Aditya