Enigmatic copper: Narsingarh, Makrai or Gwalior Ujjaini Mint?

Started by Rangnath, June 16, 2009, 01:01:39 AM

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Rangnath

 

Some more on Narsingarh.

We had another discussion on the enigmatic series that might be from Markrai, or from the Bhopal Feudatory Narsingarh (or someother place entirely!):  http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,2273.0.html  

The following images are of the following:
A.  A coin attributed to Narsingarh on Zeno that fits into the enigmatic series discussed above.
B.  The image of the only coin the standard catalog has identified as being from Narsingarh.
C.  Another coin identified by a dealer as being from the beautiful vale of Narsingarh.

richie

Oesho

#1
Wish I knew.

Rangnath

#2
Thank you for looking!
When you say "I wish I knew", I know to take a deep breath and move on. 

Oesho, the following would by my choice of subject for this site; when you have the time and if you have the inclination and if you would  indulge me my inquisitiveness:
Of all the enigmatic coins and "Princely" state conundrums that you have encountered, which would you rank towards the top of the list for which you would like answers? Richie

Figleaf

#3
It is both comforting and awe inspiring that we have reached the edge of knowledge with this thread. Knowing all seems to me no fun and knowing what you don't know seems like real wisdom.

I am in a philosophical mood today  ::)

I met Oesho yesterday. Oesho, if you feel like telling us about the gun you found, go right ahead, open a thread in the Living Room or if you prefer to do it here, go ahead and just call it gun money ;)

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Rangnath

#4
Thanks Peter for your profundity. 
And what a coincidence! My next book on philosophy, to be written in French, was to be called "A short look into the long barrel of Gun: a Search for the Edge of Knowledge".

too long a tittle?

Anyway, if Oesho has a gun story, I would love to hear it.
richie


Rangnath

#5
     As some of you may know, I've been trying to find a coin that came close to matching the catalog coin for Narsingarh, Km 1.  I think that I found it in this one.  It weighs 13.8 grams, it has a trisul with four dots around it on the obverse and a rather unique 7 dotted pinwheel on the reverse. 
     The photograph is of Narsingarh in 1968 in September.  The maharaja's palace lies on the hill above the lake. The weather, the green  (a blessing of the rainy season) and an idyllic valley were beautiful.  Not everything there was perfect, however. 
     I had a meal at a friend's house served in the traditional way. We sat cross legged on the floor with the communal meal laid out in the middle.  As was appropriate, my left hand was not in use.  My right hand became coated with the delicious, spicy curries.
     Were my hosts playing a joke on me?  This was among the hottest meals I have ever eaten in my life!  My throat was aflame and my eyes  and nose were running profusely.  We had no napkins, I had no protection and all eyes were on The Guest, me.  I don't think I have ever been so uncomfortable during a meal though subsequently I came to a realization that I had actually survived.  "Please, would you like more food ?" How could I say no?
    What a gorgeous memorable day that was and how I love Narsingarh.
richie

Salvete

Many years ago, the late Ken Wiggins wrote a paper about the coins of Sitamau.  I am not able to say whether his conclusions are still valid, but I have no note that they have been challenged - so here goes:
In a journal of some kind (can someone remember where it was published, please?), KW used some remarks in the Imperial Gazetteer as a basis for his inquiry into the copper coins of Sitamau.  the coin under discussion here is a typical example of Ken's 'Type 1' in that paper.  Having a variety of daggers on them, these coins resemble, to some extent the coins of Makrai, but the balance of opinion at the time Ken wrote about them, was that he was probably right to attribute this long lived and variable type to Sitamau.  I am willing to bet that almost everybody who has a few of these in his (or her) collection has them 'filed' under Sitamau, with a note referring to Ken's paper.   They are still very easily available and cheap, and can be had in many varieties.
If this material has since been superceded, I apologise for being behind the times on this.  Hope this may help.
Salvete.
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Rangnath

Very interesting indeed.  I would love to get my hands on the article.  By any chance can anyone provide the necessary information: Journal? Tittle? Volume? Page? Date? 
In the meantime, I will continue to be the only collector with a few of these who has NOT filed them under Sitamau.  What I did, for your information, is split them. I put half under Makrai and half under Narsingarh. Cutting the coins was of course difficult but how else to do this?   ::) 
The idea that Narsingarh may never have minted its own coins is so disturbing to me that I am undergoing self hypnotic therapy in order to maintain my coin headings with dignity and equanimity. 
richie

Salvete

So your copper coins became 'pieces of two,' Rangnath?  I have to say that I agree with those who declare that there is absolutely no evidence that Narsingarh ever struck coins.  Cross off yet another  coin-producing state, Rangnath!  I have no idea whose authority was used by Krause to attribute these nice coppers thus, but many of us are pretty sure the coins are of Ujjain under the Sindhias.  Quite recent, but no dates offered, so far as I know.  Be content to add Basmati and Karanja to your list of mints to collect.  And Ujjain (Bundelkhand), Daryapur, Bari, Rahatgarh, Sharifganj and a host of other 'new' mints.  Try comparing the 'Narsingarh' coin to the many square copper types of Ujjain, and tell me what you think.......
Salvete.
Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Rangnath

 Oh Salvete, you really know how to hurt a guy, don't you?  :(
richie

Salvete

Ultimately, our coins are only comprehensible against the background of their historical context.

Asad

NARSINGARH STATE COPPER PAISA..
NARSINGARH was a part of RAJGARH STATE (MY HOME TOWN  ;D).
The State of Narsinghgarh was carved out of the State of Rajgarh by Paras Ramji, the younger brother of the then Ruler of Rajgarh, Rawat Mohan Singhji in 1681 A.D.

is this is the only type issued by narsingrah state ??

Oesho

Dear  asad.bhopal, if you read this thread you must a come across the note by Salvete that Narsingarh didn't issued any coins and that the coins in qeustion are issues of Sitamau.
Skipp Narsingarh as a coin issuing State.

Asad

Dear Oesho sir,

yes migjt be possible that this coin is not issue by Narsingarg state . but whenever i ask for the identification of this coin . every one attribute it as a issue of Narsingarh state. i will try to search for  coin in narsingarh many times but not able to find coin there. got 2 coins from bhopal.

Figleaf

This is an unfortunate characteristic of the numismatic community: extreme conservatism. Errors once made are very hard to correct indeed. Numismatic legends live on and on, even when they have clearly been shown to be false. As an example, most US coin collector believes the Panama pill is the smallest coin in the world. It's not even in the top league.

I would trust people like Wiggins, Lingen and Tabor before any dealer.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.