Enigmatic Copper: possibly 19th century Malwa Opium Trade coin

[asm]

The obverse of the coin has only dots inside and outside the circle. The reverse has dots and may be one or two characters? The coin is 14 mm in diameter and weighs 5.18g. Please help identify it?
Amit

[shariqkhan]

Looks like paisa of Jhabua Native State

[Rangnath]

I have been searching for a coin from Jhabua. This could be one. I can not rule it out. But usually, though not always, the dots in Jhabua coins are connected with an internal line and probably represent a plant abstraction. And if letters are in use, they are devanagari, usually for "Jabuva".  I see two letters on the reverse.  One looks like a Persian "L" and the other like a Devanagari "r".  What do you think?
richie

[asm]

I saw today a coin of BIJAPUR (I am not sure if it is a correct attribution) at( http://www.kkhobbies.com/coin_details.php?pid=790 ) which has dots - not very similar. Could this help in attributing the coin that I had posted above?
Amit

[Rangnath]

Aidan and Shariq might be right, though I don't think so for the reasons that I stated above.  I also do not think it comes from Bijapur.
I tried using your link Amit. But when I arrive at the destination, an image was not available.
I recently purchased a coin I think is from Bijapur.  I'll post it below. 
I'll also post the page in Goron and Goeka that pertain to this falus. 
In the standard Catalog, page 912 in the 17th century text, there is also a picture.  It shows the "leaf" with dots on both sides of the coin.  And the "leaf" looks more like a portico in a Moghul edifice.

richie

[asm]

Richie, Even I could not get the immage from that link. The details are at: http://www.kkhobbies.com/products.php?page=3&cid=3. The coin is almost similar to the one you have uploaded.
I do agree with your views that it may not be a Bijapur issue since the dots are in a leaf like structure. However, two things came to mind. One is that i had picked it up along with the lot of 15 coins which were all of the Bahamani Sultans and two that though the dots are in a circle, there are some inscriptions around thew obverse which are also observed in the coin you have posted.
Amit

[asm]

On deeper looks at my collection, I came across a coin similar to the one Richie has posted but the weight is 4.18g and is 16 mm in diameter. From the page of G&G posted by Richie, it is heavier than a 1/3 falus and lighter than a 2/3 falus. G&G has not listed a 1/2 falus. Where should I classify the coin? I am unable to post an immage today as my camera has been lent to a friend who has traveled abroad. I will try to post an immage tomorrow.
Amit

[asm]

This is the reply from Selvette on this topic:

In our present pathetically poor state of knowledge of the cheap, crude copper coinage produced by the ton in the last half of the 18th and most of the 19th centuries in a number of places, anything anybody says about this coin is likely to be guesswork assisted by intuition. I know no more about the subject than anybody else, and much less than many.  The following is offered to get discussion going, not to end it.

I think this is a copy of a Dhar coin, sometimes attributed to Banswara, which was itself a copy of the 'Ra-ij' series of possibly Banswara coppers, in KM as Ratlam KM 20 and 21.  From the crudity and weight, I would bet on it being struck in Malwa, probably NW Malwa, probably Sailana area, unofficially for the opium trade.  It looks like a kick in the face, but to me it is interesting just for the history.  I would advise "Keep it as Malwa opium trade coin, prob struck near Sailana.

Any one has any other ideas?

Amit

[Rangnath]

Thanks to Oesho and Salvete, we have learned quite a bit about enigmatic coppers.  Frustrating, isn't it?

How about this as a subject tittle?

Enigmatic Copper:  possibly 19th century Malwa Opium Trade coin

Amit? Overlord?  Engipress?  What do you think?
richie

[asm]

Richie,
I agree. I think this is the perfect subject title. Salvete has also helped point out possibilties in case of several other of my unattributed coins. I will be uploading his views soon.
Amit

[Salvete]

I think everyone is familiar with the 'Ra-ij' coppers of Ratlam?  There are a number of 'mutations' of the cartouche containing the words 'ra-ij' and they tend towards the stylisation of that cartouche (fewer, bigger dots) and the words (becoming simplified).  I saw the notes of a collector in Indore, who has documented 7 distinct stages in this degeneration, all of which are clearly meant to read 'ra-ij, but progressively more crudely executed.  It may be that this coin and its circle full of dots is the last stage in the degeneration of that cartouche, perhaps?  I am not suggesting that it is a coin of Ratlam, merely that it could have been copied from such a coin.  Such coins as that under discussion are very common, very variable in weight and size, and also in design.  They mostly seem to be found in the northwest Malwa area, but preserving details of find-spots for such crude coppers is not usually considered worthwhile, unfortunately.
What do colleagues think about the suggestion?
Salvete

[Rangnath]

I suppose that what you suggest is possible, but I don't think so.  Do degeneration of designs occur when all previous designs are still available and in circulation?  Aren't they usually a result of some sort of discontinuity; a separation of eras or styles or long lapses of time? 
It is possible that the die maker of this particular coin was a total degenerate, and took a perfectly beautiful 'Ra-ij'  design and in one foul stroke of abstract genius degenerated it completely.  And I suppose this could be a total degeneration of the basic 'Ra-ij' design, but why the "moghul" arch? Doesn't that suggest a different origin? 
You know much more than I Salvete and you've seen many more of the 'Ra-ij' degenerations. Your theory just seems too complicated to me.
richie

[Salvete]

You are probably right, Rangnath.  If by 'Mughal Arch' you mean the obverse legend (right view in your picture), the only thing I can see is a loop of a Persian letter, some dots and the top divider, both in retrograde, I think - which may be itself an indication (though not anywhere near fool-proof) of a copy, in my view.  I have the exact same coin in my Ratlam tray (by default) because it looks so much like the end of a progression of the Ra-ij cartouche, which includes a crude version of the words ra-ij within a circle and ring of big dots exactly similar to the one we are discussing.  My mind is open regarding this design, but it would not surprise me to find it hybridised with other Malwa coin designs as well as the Indore-like designs that I have already seen, as discussed by Dr. Bhatt.  We shall, I hope, find out where the truth lies, or die trying!  (I'm joking, of course!)
Salvete

[Rangnath]

I've seen very few coins of Tatlam.  The ones I have seen with "Ra'ej" have the cartouche enclosed by a nearly perfect circle. 
In the coin at the top of this thread, an ogee arch is used at the top of the circle. It is that arch (descended as it was from the dome of St. sophia in Constantinople) which I'm referring to as a Moghul arch.
richie

[Salvete]

Again, Rangnath, you may well be right.  I am reading it as the result of a damaged or badly cut die.  If either of us finds another similar coin with an Arab-style arch on the cartouche, we should take another careful look, and discuss this further.  None of mine show that feature, but maybe other users of this site have something similar that they would like to delight us with?  Other similar coins have come from a couple of metal and coin dealers in the Sailana area, and this may be a clue to their origin, perhaps?
Salvete