Fantasy Rupee with Pseudo Persian Legend

Started by mtayal, November 27, 2008, 02:01:44 PM

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mtayal

Hi:

Another new silver coin. New addition. Please help identify.

Thanks
Mahesh

Oesho

Fancy coin. No original. Legend doesn't mean any thing

Rangnath

The technique in rendering the calligraphy is very weak. But fakes, if this is what this "coin" is, trouble me very much.  If this had been a little more accurate as an imitation of a lesser Indian "Princely" state AND I became emotionally hooked.. I am NOT that good at this.  And I am vulnerable to fraud. 
richie

Figleaf

Hard to conclude anything from a picture, but judging from the stress marks in the field on he left picture and the thin, "shaky" writing this piece may have been produced by sand casting. If so, the "ping" test* would give a good indication. This in turn would mean that the piece is probably a contemporary counterfeit, not meant to deceive collectors but meant to circulate. Contemporary counterfeits are collected and have an interest by themselves.

* Place the coin on the top of a finger and strike it lightly with a metal object, like a fork. Struck coins wil emit a hgh, clear "ping", while cast coins will yield a dull "thud". This is due to the density of the metal in the coin.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

mtayal

I tried Ping test and heard a thud and not a ping. In any case I have returned this coin to the dealer only after firing him left right and center for selling fake coin.

Mahesh

Oesho

#5
Quote from: Oesho on November 27, 2008, 03:38:19 PM
Fancy coin. No original. Legend doesn't mean any thing
Perhaps it is necessary to explain things. I wrote that it was a fancy coin. There is no example after which this object was made, only a couple of crude Persian characters, some up-side down others in retrograde, etc. The whole inscription is meaningless. There are more examples of this kind cottage industries. It is not correct to call them fake, because there is no proto type from which they were copied.
Therefore we may call them modern fantasies, inspired on local coinage, but of no clear proto type. 

Figleaf

Agreed that fake is the wrong word, but I do think the piece was made to deceive and I am not sure it is all that modern.

The retrogade letters may be seen as further evidence of sand casting: the mould must be shaped in mirror image, which is tricky. When coins were still hammered or screwed, even die cutters in official Mints sometimes made mistakes like this. However, sand casting is an obsolete way to copy metal objects, as the mould can only be used once and at best produces unsharp copies that are slightly too large.

Another factor to take into account is that the forger could easily have copied an existing coin with the same method, by simply pressing a genuine copy in the sand, rather than "drawing" his own design in the mould with what looks like a stick. Since he didn't, we may assume that he lived in a time when people couldn't read the Arabic characters, like himself. He wanted people to assume that the coin was of a certain fineness, so he could make a profit by using a lesser fineness. Also, our forger would have had no problems when caught during production, because he hadn't copied a coin, he'd made a metal object. It was only when spending the piece as money that there would be a risk. This means that there were local rulers around, ready to inflict punishment on forgers.

Therefore, I think this piece is at least 100 years old.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Rangnath

As moderator, I feel ultimately responsible for the final selection of an appropriate title to place in the Subject box at the top.  The title should be accurate, succinct and helpful in future "searches".  "Unknown Coin?", for example, is not a helpful subject title. And, I look for the title to give resolution.

The issues raised in this post are complex.  What is modern?  What is fake?  What is or isn't wilful deception?
As Oesho and Peter make contributions, I learn. 

At any time, please dear guests and contributors of this board, offer suggestions or improvements on the wording for the "Subject". For example, how do you, Peter and Oesho, Overlord and Shariq, Girish and Mahesh, Martin and Aidan and many more, feel about the title "Fantasy Rupee with Pseudo Persian Legend"?

richie

Figleaf

An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

mtayal

Richie,


This is an appropriate title. How about adding Old Fantasy Rupee and Pseudo Persian Legend. As figleaf suggested it could be 100 year old.

Mahesh

Oesho

#10
Dear Richie, I find it a perfect title for this subject.
Nevertheless still a few remarks:
The cinquefoil on the right of the reverse image may relate to the 19 san coinage of Murshidabad. A nine (up-side-down) is next to it. The 19-san coinage has been subject to much imitation. See: http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1601.15.html
By copying and re-copying, the original design completely disappears. The token rupee under discussion has not been cast, but clearly struck and was, most probably, intended as (tribal)jewellery. It wasn't very important what the design was, some lines and figures (like the cinquefoil) were sufficient. Only the decorative value and a coin-like object was of importance. Such crude token rupees may have been produced during the later first half of last century (1930 - 1950). 100 years old sounds a bit to much for me, 60-70 years may be more accurate, but nevertheless we can't prove the correct date. They most probably were produced by village silversmiths.
Tribal woman would still use old coins for this purpose and nowadays when no silver coins are being current they even use the copper-nickel coins of the last century.

The following pictures were taken in December last year in the Konkan area of Maharastra.
The woman were working on the road.



Figleaf

#11
Much of our discussion hinges on whether the piece was cast or struck. My argument that it was cast is supported by the "ping" test outcome (a thud) and the marks on the piece. I think I see some trapped air bubbles near the cinquefoil as well.

This would probably not be the work of a silversmith, who would be able to produce better moulds as well as a better design (though I admit the cinquefoil looks good, the lettering is an indication that the maker could not read), but maybe you use the word silversmith for anyone working with silver, rather than for a professional, in which case we agree on this point.

I cannot judge whether it was used for decoration on clothes, but I note that there is neither an eye on nor a hole in the piece. Also, I would expect such a piece to be made in a cheaper metal, to be silvered or gilded. The Ottoman pieces meant for decoration of clothes I have seen were generally of much better quality and nearer to the originals.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Rangnath

#12
I am enjoying the discussion.  I know too little to add anything, I'm afraid. 

Today, the women of the Konkan coast use, as Oesho said "when no silver coins are being current, they even use the copper-nickel coins of the last century."

In this case, I see a Km 52 "Asian Games" 25 paisa coin, as you can see below.
richie

Figleaf

Thanks for those delightful pictures, Oesho. Women working on te road... Those faces have character and they look like they're dressed for a party.

Peter
An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.

Rangnath

Forty years ago, it was NO party for the road crews.  The abuse the women received, from physical labor and sexually from the overseers, was a fact of life.  Hopefuly, some of that has changed.
richie