World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Other European Influences => Topic started by: jlcarvoeiro on April 28, 2011, 11:25:41 PM

Title: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on April 28, 2011, 11:25:41 PM
Here are 2 of my latest swap“s. A dinheiro from D.Joćo III with 1,3 gr and aprox.17 mm (I would like commments specially on this one because there are a lot of fake“s) and a bazaruco of D.Pedro II from 1686 with 3,6 gr and aprox.17 mm.Thank you and i hope you like them.

(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/1975/dinheiro.th.jpg) (http://img808.imageshack.us/i/dinheiro.jpg/)

(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/575/dinheiro1.th.jpg) (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/dinheiro1.jpg/)

(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9287/bazaruco.th.jpg) (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/bazaruco.jpg/)

(http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/3995/bazaruco1.th.jpg) (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/bazaruco1.jpg/)
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Figleaf on April 29, 2011, 12:14:53 AM
I agree with both identifications. These are types I hardly ever see. Thanks for posting.

The catalogue number of the first one would be Gomes India D. Joćo III 07.01. Gomes gives a diameter of 20/22 and a weight of 3.9/5.2. As the circle of pearls on your piece is complete and visible, it should at least reach those values. It doesn't. I also think it is far too good for this type. You are right to say that many fakes insist. In my opinion, this is a fake. However, you should seek other opinions also.

The second coin's catalogue number is Gomes India D. Pedro II 02.01 or possibly 02.06. Gomes says the diameter is 18 mm and the weight is 4.0/5.4. However, 02.06 - 02.08 show that genuine smaller coins exist. The only significant difference I can find between your coin and those pictured in Gomes is that on your coin the last digit in the date is positioned correctly and I note the downward slope of the band of the crown. This could all be explained by the conditions in India: hand engraving and engravers who do not know European script. I would take this coin for genuine, but you should consult other people, as I am no expert on these coins.

A personal message to lusomosa (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=38) may help.

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on April 29, 2011, 12:31:22 AM
Thank you Figleaf for your posting.I“m very huried about that dinheiro but i would like to get more comment“s from "experts" in this sort of coins.
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on April 30, 2011, 11:48:05 PM
I was told by an person that know“s something about this dinheiro“s types that the metal ligue that this material was made (calaim) it“s a bit hard and the fake“s you can bend them with your fingers if you make a bit of pressure and mine was the case , it bended.   >:D :'( So off to his origin , a trader that it“s my frined and for sure he didn“t know and as a very similar in his collection , thinking that also he has some coins of portguese India that i will tell him to get me the picture“s and weight“s to post them here because i was not that sure at first hand.Thank you for your comment“s.
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Oesho on May 01, 2011, 04:43:50 PM
First a correction on the attribution by Peter. The first coin is not Gomes D. Joćo III 07.01, but 13.01 (Dinheiro Lisboa para Malaca). The weight is given as 2,00 g. and diameter 20 mm.
Damićo Peres: Catįlogo das Moedas Indo-Portuguesas do Museu Numismįtico Portugues, Tomo I (1511-1657, Casa da Moeda 1963, describes in the chapter Casa da Moeda de Lisboa (para Malaca) two such pieces (p.22, #38 & 39) both are illustrated as well. The weight of the two pieces is given as 1.96 and 1.66 g.
J,. Ferraro Vaz: Dinheiro Luso-Indiano (Braga 1980), illustrates in on page 81 and gives the same weight as Gomes. The oldest pictorial reference I know for this type is in the Auction Catalogue of J. Schulman: Collection Henry Thomas Grogan, 23 February 1914. In this catalogue two coins (lot 1302 and 1303) are described and one (lot 1302) illustrated. The weight is given as 1.98 and 2.11 respectively.
I have 5 specimen which weigh resp.: 2.34, 2.25, 2.22, 2,06 and 1.46 g.
As the dinheiro are all of the same fine workmanship and were known early in the 20th cent. and later well described in the 60's I don't think these are forgeries.

The other coin is a copper bazaruco dated 1686 of D. Pedro II (1683-1706). Gomes P2 02.01. I was struck at Diu.
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Figleaf on May 01, 2011, 05:54:20 PM
I suspect we are using different editions of Gomes. Mine is the 4th (2003).

Your sources and collection put the weight of the coin at around 2 grams. This specimen is 1.3 grams.

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Oesho on May 01, 2011, 08:46:22 PM
Quote
I suspect we are using different editions of Gomes. Mine is the 4th (2003).
Yes, I work with edition 1987 (Moedas Portuguesas). I was not aware that er was a more recent edition.

Quote
Your sources and collection put the weight of the coin at around 2 grams. This specimen is 1.3 grams.
An example in the Mint Collection is 1.66 g. Also quite low. Nevertheless I can not be definite, but genrally I don't suspect these coins.
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 01, 2011, 09:16:57 PM
So Oesho you dont think this dinheiro is fake ???? I bought one around 3 months ago and when i got home and weight it it was 5 gr so everybody told me it was fake but this one is exactly the same style but it weights 1,3 gr wich gave me a bit more securety to trade it.Thank you all for your commments.
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Oesho on May 01, 2011, 09:50:53 PM
The 5 g. piece most probrably is a Soldo ( = 2 dinheiro)
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 02, 2011, 11:12:04 PM
But it was the same size has this one ,can that be right?
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Oesho on May 02, 2011, 11:28:06 PM
The Soldo should be approximately 25 mm in diameter and the Bastardo of this type 28 mm
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 02, 2011, 11:38:30 PM
Here are the photo“s of the fake i had a few months ago.I still had the photo“s on file for future transactions. 17mm  5 gr

(http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/575/dinheiro1.th.jpg) (http://img153.imageshack.us/i/dinheiro1.jpg/)

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/2818/dinheiro2.th.jpg) (http://img694.imageshack.us/i/dinheiro2.jpg/)
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: Rangnath on May 03, 2011, 12:17:10 AM
I am un-familiar with Portuguese Colonial Coinage.  And, the problem with presenting two coins in one post is that, unless I resort to two cups of coffee, I can become confused.  In fact, that is exactly my current state: confusion.
Would one of you kind people please summarize the conclusions concerning the two posted coins?
richie
Title: Re: Portuguese India
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 03, 2011, 01:23:32 AM
Richie the first coin i posted apparently it“s a good one , it weights 1,3 gr and measures 17mm.The last photo posted it“s of a coin a bought a few months ago and i had to returne it to the seller because it was a fake , 17 mm and 5 gr.Thank you.
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & FAKE bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Rangnath on May 03, 2011, 07:57:31 PM
Thanks! 
On the reverse of the dinheiro.. is that an abstract fish?  and is there a right side up for this symbol?
richie
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Figleaf on May 03, 2011, 09:21:30 PM
It is a quartered circle with the date in the quarters.

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & FAKE bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 03, 2011, 11:26:17 PM
Richie the simbol is an armilary sphere and the right ide up is the way i posted the fake coin.Thank you.
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & FAKE bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Rangnath on May 03, 2011, 11:33:38 PM
thanks Figleaf and jlcarvoeiro!
Now I know. 
richie
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & FAKE bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 03, 2011, 11:42:05 PM
Glad to help you Rangnath. ;D
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & FAKE bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Oesho on May 05, 2011, 11:31:47 PM
Just as an additional documentation of the coins discussed above herewith a dinheiro (2,06 g.) and a bastardo (10.95 g.) of similar type.
Also a AE 2 bazaruco 1686 (7.32 g.) of D. Pedro II has been listed.

Why describes in the header "FAKE bazaruco, D. Pedro II"? I don't think there is any reason to describe it as a fake.
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: jlcarvoeiro on May 06, 2011, 01:27:59 AM
I didn“t wright FAKE bazaruco in my original post , probably one of the moderators did because my doubt was on the dinheiro and not on the bazaruco.Thank you Oesho for your addicional information.
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Rangnath on May 06, 2011, 02:05:58 AM
I didn“t wright FAKE bazaruco in my original post , probably one of the moderators did because my doubt was on the dinheiro and not on the bazaruco.Thank you Oesho for your addicional information.

Alas! I am that moderator! 
Pardon for my confusion and I corrected the header.
Oesho, I love your examples, specially the last one.  It is absolutely beautiful, patina and all.
richie
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: brokencompass on July 29, 2011, 10:13:07 PM
@Rangnath : Adding more to what jlcarvoeiro said. It is actually a Portuguese armillary sphere, an equipment used for navigation and astronomy. The lines represent the parallels and the meridians I think. It was used to find position on earth's surface using the stars as reference. It is also a part of the Portuguese coat of arms.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Coat_of_arms_of_Portugal_%28Lesser%29.svg/150px-Coat_of_arms_of_Portugal_%28Lesser%29.svg.png)
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Rangnath on July 29, 2011, 11:12:57 PM
Well thank you brokencompass.  Though getting this information from you contains some irony, no?  Sort of like the blind giving the blind his walking cane?
All kidding aside, when was this equipment originally used?  During the 16th century?
richie
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: brokencompass on July 29, 2011, 11:39:38 PM
lol good one Richie! I didn't get it for a minute   :)

From reading about it on Wikipedia, it looks like it's been around for a very long time and improvements were made to it through the ages by different people. I think probably since the Portuguese used it for navigation in the 15th and 16th century during their age of discovery helping them expand their empire throughout the world, it was important enough for them to include it in their coat of arms.

Looks like even Brazil kept it after it's independence from the Portuguese.


(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Coat_Arms_Empire_of_Brazil.svg/500px-Coat_Arms_Empire_of_Brazil.svg.png)
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2011, 12:01:18 AM
These arms were used 1840- november 1889 only.

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: brokencompass on July 30, 2011, 12:13:00 AM
oh yes this is one, but it was present in every coat of arms since its independence from the Portuguese.

Looks like even the British East India Company had an armillary sphere in it's coat of arms too!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zS2JDRBdNzk/TAzwXqDcYFI/AAAAAAAABz0/FQAne3-6ahU/s1600/coat+of+arms.JPG)
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2011, 01:09:32 AM
Not quite. It was abandoned in 1889 because the monarchy was overthrown. The new arms show the Southern cross. Also, the arms shown above are not of the EIC (attached) or of the Merchant Adventurers of London (attached)

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: andyg on July 30, 2011, 01:28:58 AM
Also, the arms shown above are not of the EIC (attached) or of the Merchant Adventurers of London (attached)

Peter

are you sure?

(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/M/M072/M072664.jpg)
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: andyg on July 30, 2011, 01:32:53 AM
this one from circa 1600

(http://royalmunsterfusiliers.org/d5arms1.jpg)
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2011, 01:38:30 AM
Well ... uhh ...

Peter
Title: Re: Portuguese India dinheiro, D.Joćo III & bazaruco, D.Pedro II
Post by: andyg on July 30, 2011, 02:12:47 AM
that one is also the arms of the EIC (it was used later...)