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Other tokens and medals => Transportation tokens => Topic started by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 12:59:48 AM

Title: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 12:59:48 AM
It's hard to find out more about these tokens, but they are intriguing, if only because they are generally richly decorated. Also, they have nothing to do with one way trips to Australia. I found out that there is a company National Transport Tokens Ltd. in Blackburn, which distributes the tokens and calls itself a "transportation consultancy", which I always thought was the uniformed person who'd actually know stuff, wandering around aimlessly in stations or holding endless conversations with colleagues.

AJG told me about the reason of their existence. When you are 60, you may choose between a free bus pass and an amount (somewhere around £60) in tokens. I found that in spite of the word "national", there is no national public transportation organization. All kinds of lower governments do their own thing, apparently without any consulting with neighbouring or overlapping bus services or British Rail. Therefore, the owners of each system must decide whether or not to honour the tokens.

Apparently, the tokens are used to make sure that only those who may have a free bus pass can use them. However, it is OK to give change in real money, but you can't convert any token by itself. As an economist, my advice would have been to give all beneficiaries a tax discount of £60 and be done with all the forms, regulations and insecurity on whether you can use the tokens. As a collector, I am glad they went for tokens and bureaucracy instead.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 01:05:47 AM
Here is the first piece, a 50p. The reverses all have the denomination at the centre, with NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN around. That's boring, so I didn't scan them. This one shows York Minster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Minster)'s Western front, which is one of England's finest cathedrals. The view on the token is impossible, since other buildings are too close by.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 01:38:40 AM
This 50 p token presents Edinburgh castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Castle), a particularly ugly, but interesting complex of military housing within what once was a majestic fortress. The picture is somewhat misleading as the castle stands in the centre of Edinburgh. The castle glacis is the stomping grond for an annual military tattoo.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 02:04:37 AM
The subject of this token is Caernarfon castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caernarfon_Castle), a spectacular complex of walls and towers near the Irish sea, opposite Dublin. The castle is the scene of the investiture of the prince of Wales. It is also connected to the 5th Earl, who financed the expedition that discovered the grave of pharaoh Tuthankamen. Folklore has it that he dies shotly afterwards as a victim of the curse of the pharaoh. Having visited the grave, I have been unable to ascertain the existence of the curse. I already had stomach trouble before I got there :)

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 09:15:51 AM
The last of the 50p has the logo of "National Transport Token Ltd." I hope to discover more monuments in due time. All 50p tokens are 9-sided, aluminium, 2.0 grams and 29.1 mm.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 10:02:27 AM
On to 20p. Though I have only found pictures where the tramcar has rectangular windows, this seems to be the Brill 21E Tramcar, used all over the country. A smallish, double-decker car with open top and electricity when in most cities, trams were still horse-drawn. I guess modern safety inspectors would take issue with the low railing on the top deck an the accessibility of the electricity lines..

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 12:34:51 PM
Somewhat further advanced in time and technology is this Daimler CVD6 bus. Powered by an 8.4 litre Daimler engine, it was still suitable for city traffic only. The body was built by Northern Coachbuilders. The type was phased out around 1966.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 12:43:28 PM
I am amused by the designation of the class 508 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_508) train as an EMU, as that is also the designation of the precursor of the euro [ducking].

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 01:01:18 PM
The metrocar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyne_and_Wear_Metro_rolling_stock) on this 20p is a light railway vehicle, now pretty outdated, built by Metro-Cammel.

All 20 p tokens are 7-sided, aluminium, 1.5 grams and 24.7 mm. The reverse shows the denomination and legend NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN around.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 01:33:17 PM
For a long time, the only variant of the 10p I knew of was the holed one below. It is aluminium, 1.1 gram, 21.5 mm. Both sides are the same. I recently got a new version (thanks, AJG!). It features Aquarius, of uncertain gender in the pose of a British tourist on a Spanish beach. In view of the series above, I expect that other signs of the zodiac are around. The connection between the zodiac and public transportation is not at once obvious to me. The new type is considerably thicker and smaller, aluminium 1.9 grams, 19.3 mm.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 01:43:14 PM
The only 5p in my collection fits in the "holed" series, except that the 5p is significantly larger than the 10p, which must have been confusing. Like the holed 10p, it has a reeded edge, while all other tokens above have a smooth edge. It is 1.8 grams, 27.5 mm, aluminium and both sides are the same. I like the way the 5 is folded around the hole.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 02:00:44 PM
To conclude with, the pound. Contrary to all the others, it is dated and it has a pound sign (the others do not have a p in the denomination). In addition, there's a pearl border on the reverse the others don't have. The obverse bears the logo of National Transport Token Ltd. also found on one of the 50p pieces. The token has a reeded edge, it is aluminium, 2.1 grams and 23.0 mm.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on April 26, 2010, 07:31:10 PM
Paul Baker once told me the £1 coins had the Utrecht mint logo on...
The 5p and 10p with holes are no longer valid, but the rest can be spent on the bus...
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on April 26, 2010, 07:56:14 PM
My 1 Pound is without the mint marks... but I am sure I have seen an image of one with mark of the Utrecht mint.

The company website is not working...

http://www.transport-tokens.co.uk/

are they still in business ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2010, 08:19:48 PM
Yes, it looks like they pulled their site from the server. Here is a marker on the corner of Blakewater Road and Philips Road in Blackburn, found with Google Earth. They are mentioned on the second sign from below. The photo may be years old, though.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: chrisild on April 27, 2010, 08:59:26 AM
May make sense to contact Stagecoach and ask about those tokens:
http://www.stagecoachgroup.com/scg/about/groupstructure/overview/
(scroll to the bottom)

Christian
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on July 31, 2010, 10:31:52 PM
I now have a National Transport 1 Pound token with the privy marks. Here is an image of the dated side...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on July 31, 2010, 10:34:09 PM
...and here is a closer image for the date and privy marks.

I now notice that on the other side... the encircled "R" (symbol for registered trademark) on this piece is a fairly small and is different to that on the two other 1 Pound tokens shown earlier in this topic. Image another day perhaps.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on July 31, 2010, 10:56:16 PM
I met a gentleman who's handling the pension fund of the group. He gave me the name of the person to contact. Even so, I received no answer to my mail.

I can confirm that those are the marks of the Utrecht mint (right) and mintmaster (left). Please do add the other side, Paul. There's very little info on these pieces, so the more is published, the better.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: a3v1 on July 31, 2010, 10:56:30 PM
These privy marks suggest that these tokens were struck at the Royal Dutch Mint in Utrecht.
Regards,
a3v1
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 14, 2010, 05:18:55 PM
Oakham castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakham#Oakham_Castle) would be a fitting subject for a commemorative coin, but a transportation token will do.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fd/Oakham_Castle_and_church_spire.jpg)

We know what a castle looked like in the Middle Ages: high walls, towers and some buildings within the walls. We know what a Roman fortified camp looked like: walls or palisades, watchtowers. But do we have any idea of what a fortress looked like in-between? Old texts speak of halls and we know they were high enough for an upper part, but did not have wall-to-wall floors. We suspect that at best they used Roman buildings, repaired with wattle and daub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub), at worst they were made of beams, wattle and daub and moss, so they disappeared. Stories like "Arthur's castle" Tintagel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tintagel_Castle) are (mainly Victorian) fantasies.

Oakham, built in stone, gives you an idea of what a strong place may have looked like in the days of Alfred the Great. Its (dry?) moat and palisade or wall have gone, but the great hall remains. With some fantasy, you can also see how such great halls developed into Romanesque (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanesque_architecture) churches. An instant favourite...

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 14, 2010, 05:51:19 PM
Conwy castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conwy_Castle) is a huge affair of walls and towers. It started out as a royal fortress to keep the Welsh in their place and ended up as an empty hulk in the English civil war.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 14, 2010, 06:34:05 PM
The Leyland Lion LT1, built 1926-1940 was the first of four bus types of that name. Here (http://www.lvvs.org.uk/tf818.htm) is the story of one being fixed up again.

In all aspects, this token looks like the earlier 20p tokens. It is, however, a 50p token of he same size as the "castles" series.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 14, 2010, 07:53:04 PM
Here is a type of public transportation we haven't seen yet, a minibus. Though nominally a Mercedes type, it was built only in Britain by Mercedes UK. The body on the picture is slightly different from the one on the token. This is a 20p token.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 14, 2010, 08:10:07 PM
Here are the Zodiac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac) 10p tokens. One (Gemini) is missing and another (Aquarius) was shown before in this thread. Special thanks to andyg for collecting these (including most of the tokens shown earlier) tokens for me.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: <k> on August 14, 2010, 08:13:35 PM
These are attractive tokens. I have a vague memory of reading an article about them some decades ago (the transport ones, not the Zodiac-themed ones), either in Coin News or Coin Monthly. Apparently the author of the piece went to visit the Birmingham Mint, where they were supposedly designed and minted, and he was presented with a set of them as a token(!) of his visit. Unfortunately I never kept a copy of that article, and I wonder if AJG, who apparently knows a bit about the subject, has any knowledge of where they were actually produced?
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on August 14, 2010, 09:19:32 PM
NC Midi,

NC stands for Northern Counties a coach builder in the North of England, they built bodywork on top of pre prepared truck chassis bought from another company, in this case from Dodge.
As far as I know the Mercedes (is that a 709?) had Dormobile conversions.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on August 14, 2010, 09:43:34 PM
Conwy castle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conwy_Castle) is a huge affair of walls and towers. It started out as a royal fortress to keep the Welsh in their place and ended up as an empty hulk in the English civil war.

Peter

I should point out the the Bridge in front of the picture is not actually part of the castle, it is a suspension bridge built by Thomas Telford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Telford) in 1826 to carry the coach road to Holyhead, for the ferry to Ireland. It was one of the first suspension bridges - It would have made a nice subject for the token...  Next to it on the picture below is Robert Stephenson's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stephenson) tubular rail bridge, built in 1848 it was another first being the first bridge of this design.  Robert Stephenson was the son of the more well known George Stephenson, of 'Rocket' fame, Another potential subject for the token - but instead we got the castle.....
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on August 14, 2010, 09:49:44 PM
These are attractive tokens. I have a vague memory of reading an article about them some decades ago (the transport ones, not the Zodiac-themed ones), either in Coin News or Coin Monthly. Apparently the author of the piece went to visit the Birmingham Mint, where they were supposedly designed and minted, and he was presented with a set of them as a token(!) of his visit. Unfortunately I never kept a copy of that article, and I wonder if AJG, who apparently knows a bit about the subject, has any knowledge of where they were actually produced?

Not a clue as to who manufactured them, I'm not even sure if they are still being manufactured.

The first 50p has the Leyland Lion, moving onto the Castles series then to the National Tranport logo.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: translateltd on August 14, 2010, 10:04:17 PM
The Leyland Lion LT1, built 1926-1940 was the first of four bus types of that name. Here (http://www.lvvs.org.uk/tf818.htm) is the story of one being fixed up again.

In all aspects, this token looks like the earlier 20p tokens. It is, however, a 50p token of he same size as the "castles" series.

Peter

Interesting item - all the more in that the representation of the vehicle displays the same "clay model" problems that I mentioned in reference to the Austrian 5 Euro yesterday.

Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on September 14, 2010, 10:48:47 PM
I have some more info on this topic...

Most of the pieces were made by The Birmingham Mint - though not the latest as pieces as that mint closed a few years or so ago.

The other day I got a 2005 dated 1 Pound that is generally as per the 2003 1 Pound showed earlier.

The other day I also got a 50 Pence in the usual size but with the reverse like that on the 1 Pound tokens - I think I had already seen such a piece on ebay.

This current ebay lot is apparently of a bag full of the 3p tokens but with "TOKEN ORGANISATION" (so seemingly before the company "National Transport Tokens")...

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400153876571

I have one or two bags but I think they each say "NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKENS".

I have seen wrapped (brown) paper rolls of the earlier 10p token type..... seemingly rolls of 50 pieces.

Finally.. another mint had some involvement with the production of the zodiac series 10p types. Perhaps figleaf can see a difference with some of his pieces ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on September 28, 2010, 09:54:17 PM
Here's a scan of a token bag that I did a few years ago.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 29, 2010, 01:46:15 AM
Thanks to Akbar Andy, I now have some more tokens to share. Here is the first. The Ebley mill (http://www.stroud.gov.uk/docs/democ/history_ebley_mill.asp), once a woolen cloth factory, is now in Stroud. It is the seat of the Stroud district council, a lower government. The reverse is like the other 50p tokens.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 29, 2010, 01:52:02 AM
Another new guy on the block is a 10p, like the first one in reply#9, but only 21.5 mm and 1.1 grammes. Both sides are the same.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on December 29, 2010, 11:59:20 PM
One wonders with the impending cuts (around 25 to 40%) to the UK concessionary fares budget how much longer these small local authorities will continue to go their own way. 

Bad form to quote oneself, sorry,
but I've answered my own question without realising it.
From April 2010 money for concessionary fares will no longer go to the district authorities - it will instead be diverted to county councils or unitary authorities (middle tier of government instead of lower tier) to save costs.  Therefore unless Wokingham is unitary (I don't think it is) they will no longer have authority to have their own concessionary fares system.  However, thats the idea - it remains to be seen what happens on the ground.

As to why Wokingham issue their own tokens, two reasons I can think of,
tokens have expiry (unlike National tokens) so can be written off at the end of the year.
tokens can only be used in Wokingham, therefore reducing uptake.

National tokens on the other hand are purchased by the LA (local authority) from National tokens Ltd, up front then given out to concessionary passengers who can use them all over the UK - so with these tokens, unlike the LA tokens there are no redemption costs to the LA.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 30, 2010, 02:12:04 PM
As to why Wokingham issue their own tokens, two reasons I can think of,
tokens have expiry (unlike National tokens) so can be written off at the end of the year.
tokens can only be used in Wokingham, therefore reducing uptake.

This is unfortunately possible. I call it "manager thinking": the concessionary fares are a cost, so let's limit its usefulness to save cost. I would have thought that a social program that is not used is a failure and that the real challenge is not how to keep legit beneficiaries away, but how to make sure the non-legit have no acces to the programme. See also my rant here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,8259.msg54155.html#msg54155). I wonder when we'll see the first hospital where the managers have fired all the doctors and nurses and the only cost remaining is their own salary.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 30, 2010, 02:18:56 PM
On to better things. I enjoyed the above discussion on the time frame of the tokens. In that light, this must be another precursor of the national system. North West (England) is pretty vague, but in my mind it includes Carlisle. So is this a halfway house between a local token and a national token?

The token is 1.5 gram, 24.8 mm. The denomination is somewhat weird in a decimal system (unless you are Russian or Bulgarian.) Was it due to the fare system, pre-decimal, or is it good for three zones (no d or p)?

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 30, 2010, 02:22:31 PM
This token is just one step away from a national token. Note the similarity in style with the previous post (more on that in my next post). this one is 21.4 mm and 1.1grammes. Again, pence or zones?

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 30, 2010, 02:31:05 PM
And here the two last types, same size, same hole, same decoration, same finely reeded edge, but now with the inscription NATIONAL.

BTW, there is no reason why only my tokens should figure in this thread. If you have types not featured yet, please add them.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on December 30, 2010, 07:53:55 PM
This is unfortunately possible. I call it "manager thinking": the concessionary fares are a cost, so let's limit its usefulness to save cost.

The National tokens are "concessionary" tokens, but perhaps the full meaning of concessionary is not immediately apparent, they can be given to the elderly, the disabled and the unemployed. Again different districts have different rules.

I do not know why the North West token (which includes Manchester and Liverpool) is inscribed "Token 2" or "Token 3"
Does anyone have a "Token 1"?

Paul - you quote the first tokens being in 1973 - I'd be interested to know more about this when you have time.

There is also another type of 20p not illustrated so far, as I don't collect them I don't have one to post!
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on December 30, 2010, 10:27:52 PM
My "1973" date for first issue is from an article in "Token Corresponding Society Bulletin" Vol 5 No.11. A now past editor of that publication sent me the text in an e-mail in April 2000. The author of the article gives thanks to two named members/ex-members of senior management of NTT.

The "NATIONAL TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues of 1973 were just a "2" and a "3" (obviously decimal pence).
The only "PUBLIC TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues were a "2" and a "3". These were also first issued in 1973.
The only "NORTH WEST PUBLIC TRANSPORT TOKEN" issues were a "2" and a "3". These were first issued in July 1971. 
All "2" and "3" pieces for the above went out of use around the mid-1980s.

The article lists the MCT and the SELNEC tokens (neither type having a denomination) as the predecessor pieces to the above. These two are a bit harder to find - but still cheap. I have one of each somewhere and will do images when normal image posting starts working again.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 30, 2010, 11:04:26 PM
Thanks Paul. That helps. The 3 remains an odd denomination, so I suppose it was dictated by fare setting, e.g. the 3 could be used to complement the 2 pence to 5 pence.

Picture from my collection added. Both sides are the same. Voice assigns this token to Manchester. SELNEC is South-East Lancashire North-east Cheshire.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on December 30, 2010, 11:08:51 PM
I have a fare chart at work from the old NBC (National Bus Company), fares were allocated by distance - I can't remember the per mile charge - it wasn't much.  If I remember tomorrow I will have a look....
(I'm only at work till lunchtime, then the pub so I may not have time ;D)
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Prosit on May 04, 2011, 03:07:20 AM
Pretty big for 5p.  Aluminum, 27.5mm  +/-

Dale
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on June 27, 2011, 10:27:11 PM
Here is the latest addition to this great fun series: 20p, 7-sided, aluminium, 1.5 grams and 24.7 mm., showing a double decker closed top bus dated 1920 (the type was actually produced 1919-1921). Detail: the ad on the front is for National Transport Tokens. Can't read the ads on the side.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Kushi on August 16, 2012, 03:33:20 PM
Does this company still exist? What were the last tokens they issued?
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 16, 2012, 05:22:57 PM
Not sure which company you mean. If you meant Leyland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Leyland), the answer is no. I think the bus part went to DAF, who dragged it along in its own fall.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Kushi on August 16, 2012, 05:36:42 PM
No. There was a company called National Transport Tokens that issued many aluminum bus tokens, mostly for concessionary fares. Some of these are listed on page 152 of the 1990 Smith and Smith catalogue.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on August 16, 2012, 07:24:55 PM
When I got interested in these tokens, they were issued by a company called Stagecoach. I contacted them once for more information, but got no reply. See reply 14 of this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on August 16, 2012, 08:20:39 PM
The company is still National Transport Tokens - they are owned by Stagecoach, but do not trade under the Stagecoach name.  Since their tokens are still being issued as well as being valid I therefore surmise that they still exist.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on August 17, 2012, 12:10:30 AM
from figleaf...
>>they were issued by a company called Stagecoach<<

Would it be more accuracte to consider the various participating local authorities to be the issuers of these tokens as opposed to NTT ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Kushi on August 17, 2012, 12:24:07 AM
No. The home city of the issuing company is usually used. However, I would like to create a new section for "National Tokens", not referring to the company NTT, but for any token whose usage is spread all over the country.

Here is their current website.  http://www.concessionarysolutions.com/national-transport-tokens.aspx
They have apparently, recently moved to Reddish, Stockport, Cheshire.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on August 17, 2012, 12:45:12 AM
Yes "National Transport Tokens" together would be how to categorise these.... Many different local authorities issue these token to people living in their area - the same types used by many local authorities. Bags of tokens can sometimes be seen on ebay - the bag will be a National Transport Tokens bag often (perhaps always) with additional printing of the name of a local authority. Older types are sometime encountered in rolls (unmarked) as opposed to bags.

I likely have all the "Manchester" pieces starting as 500CA as listed on page 152. (That is the only Smith book I have.)

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on August 17, 2012, 12:48:13 AM
No. There was a company called National Transport Tokens that issued many aluminum bus tokens, mostly for concessionary fares. Some of these are listed on page 152 of the 1990 Smith and Smith catalogue.

I see that in the Smith cat. they are listed under Manchester which is indeed hopeless. As Paul says some reference to issuing authority is warranted. However a new section for "National Tokens" would seem the best solution here.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Mark H on November 20, 2012, 01:29:12 PM
Hi

NTT ( National Transport Tokens) is currently based in Reddish, Stockport and moved there in 2010. It is now more of a niche product.

NTT do have stocks of tokens and and have separated out all the ones listed.

I would be interested in hearing any thoughts on Transport Tokens or if anyone is missing any from any collection. I would do my best to oblige.

Thanks

Mark
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on November 20, 2012, 01:33:46 PM
That is a kind and very generous offer Mark. Thank you very much.

The problem is that we don't know what is out there. Would it be OK to let you know what we DO have instead?

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Mark H on November 20, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
Yes Peter. Of Course.

Back in the annals of time there are undoubtedly some tokens of which I am unaware.

I do have stocks of the more common recent ones and some with the holes in the middle which are pretty much vintage.

Let me what you have and I will fill in the blanks against known designs. Clearly something old and rare may be more difficult to come by !

Look forward to hearing from you.

Mark 
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on November 20, 2012, 07:21:27 PM
The only current one I've not located for Peter is the 10p zodiac sign - Gemini.  Everything else current has been illustrated in thread as far as I know - (I'd be surprised if there are any but am waiting to be proved wrong!)  The older ones with the hole I never see in use as they are not current anymore, so not sure what is issued.

(ps given that I work for the opposition should I be communicating with you?  >:D)
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on November 20, 2012, 07:40:59 PM
Guess what. The gemini piece is on its way to me. Thanks Mark!

Isn't there something like Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition in public transportation? ;)

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: andyg on November 20, 2012, 08:02:53 PM
Maybe it's just bad luck, but over the years I never did find that one!
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on November 20, 2012, 09:27:42 PM
From the Zodiac 10p series, the one Zodiac sign I do not have is Gemini. Per info from a long time ago (late 1990s perhaps) in the Token Corresponding Society Bulletin (that mentioned info having been given by someone at National Transport Tokens - as far as I re-call) there are 23 different pieces of the 10p Zodiac series of which I have 19. I had those 19 by about 12 years or so ago - all are nice grade having been quite new when collected. The Birmingham Mint made some of each design with date 1994, the Roger Williams Mint made pieces with 5 of the designs with date 1994 and they also made pieces with those 5 and one other design with date 1995.  So I never tried to memorise the list of the 4 of 23 I still needed - hence still on 19 pieces. I will have to do an image to show the differences between the pieces of the two different mints (no mint marks were used).

But for now an image of another of my pieces..  one of a few proof 20p pieces I have in an unmarked case. I have also seen proofs of the 20p series in copper-nickel advertised for sale (no images).

There are a few 50p pieces I am without.

I wonder - do we have images all of the 1 Pound token dates included in this topic ?

My other interest is in knowing which minter has produced the more recent tokens.

Any plans for a 2 Pound token ?

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Mark H on November 26, 2012, 10:58:59 AM
I have been out of the office for a few days.

There have been some messages and I will get to these this week.

Thanks

Mark
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Mark H on November 28, 2012, 11:07:24 AM
If I am understanding the thread correctly, Gemini seems to be in short supply. I do have some stocks of Gemini and if you would like to email your addresses I can send one of these on to you as required.

I'm afraid I don't have the history of minting to hand but don't really understand how there can be 23 Signs of the Zodiac 10p. I am happy to be enlightened.

If you wish to email me your address and don't want to post it on this forum please send to msehaberfield@hotmail.com and I will send you the token.

We are reviewing our stocks v a list provided and will post accordingly once completed. In response to one of the questions, there are no current plans for a £2 token, we find the smaller values to be useful for customers and users.
 
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on November 28, 2012, 12:14:23 PM
Here are a couple of scans from John Tolson's article 'National Transport Tokens' from the TCS Bulletin Vol.5 No.11 of May 1997.

This goes some way to showing how there can be 23 10p Zodiac .tokens  ;D so we have 12+5+5+1

Paul may care to add to this to enlighten us further.  8)
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Mark H on November 28, 2012, 01:23:51 PM
I understand now. Minting Dates !

Which ones are you missing.

I have asked the team to now look for minting dates not just designs.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on November 28, 2012, 08:49:01 PM
Quote
Which ones are you missing.

 ;D That is an easier question - I don't have any of the Zodiac tokens!
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on November 28, 2012, 11:27:44 PM
So here are illustrations to show the differences between the obverses for the two mints. The easiest difference to see is that in the relative position of the "NA" (in "NATIONAL") with respect to the "1" (in "10") positioning. There are also a few other small differences on the obverse. These differences are the same whichever the reverse design is. From these particular images you should also be able to see slight differences between the Capricorn designs used by the two mints. The lower image is of a piece struck by "RWM". Also - for both sides there are variations per minter in the profile around the inner edge of the rims.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on November 29, 2012, 12:47:14 AM
The above shows  RWM only produced six tokens bearing the date 1995. I wonder if the Birmingham mint made any with the 1995 date?
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on December 03, 2012, 10:38:52 PM
This is to show that, thanks to Mark, I now have a full set of zodiac tokens. Yet another piece with a story. Great fun!

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: africancoins on December 03, 2012, 11:06:26 PM
Clarification of the details from the listing in the scan from Malcolm...

Ignore the pattern - until we know otherwise we can assume that no collectors have them.

So with date "1994" - just made by Birmingham Mint - Pieces, Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo - 7 pieces

Then with date "1994" and made by both Birmingham Mint and RWM - Capricorn, Aquarius, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius - 2*5 = 10 pieces

Then with date "1995" made by just RWM - Capricorn, Aquarius, Taurus, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius - 6 pieces

In all....    7 + 10 + 6 = 23 pieces in total.

I have 19 of the 23 above. I do not have any other pieces for this series. The article was written with some info from NTT (according to another part of the article) - so very likely the listing is complete - unless new pieces have been made in the past few years.

Confirmation of it still being true to say that ALL pieces of the 10p Zodiac series are dated either "1994" or "1995" would be useful.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: orsk2 on February 25, 2013, 01:52:30 PM
On to better things. I enjoyed the above discussion on the time frame of the tokens. In that light, this must be another precursor of the national system. North West (England) is pretty vague, but in my mind it includes Carlisle. So is this a halfway house between a local token and a national token?

The token is 1.5 gram, 24.8 mm. The denomination is somewhat weird in a decimal system (unless you are Russian or Bulgarian.) Was it due to the fare system, pre-decimal, or is it good for three zones (no d or p)?

Peter

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/29th-january-1971/26/10-million-travel-tokens-for-north-west-now-being-
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/22nd-january-1971/16/huge-token-travel-scheme-for-north-west
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on February 25, 2013, 05:15:47 PM
Thank you, Orsk. That answers two questions. The 2 and 3 are new pence and the tokens date from after 1971.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: plasticman on March 12, 2017, 06:05:54 PM
The 50p one is clearly a UK National Transport Token but the 1Euro one is presumably for non UK use. The obverse of both shows what I assume is the logo of the issuing company
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on March 12, 2017, 10:42:20 PM
Could it be for use in Eire?  I must seek one of those 1Euro  ::)

...along with the 10p Sagitarius 1994 from the Birmingham mint that I'm still seeking.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: chrisild on March 13, 2017, 02:06:37 AM
Hmm, where have I seen that logo before? Ah yes, here ... in Reply #4 :) Does not explain the euro-style piece though.

Christian
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on March 13, 2017, 02:52:06 AM
The same obverse logo is also used on the £1 see at Reply #11 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6397.msg40743.html#msg40743) although the euro omits the ®
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: plasticman on April 13, 2017, 06:45:05 PM
I have contacted Stagecoach who tell me that the National Transport Tokens were issued for England, Scotland and Wales only, so the aluminium Euro one must presumably be a test or trial piece. You can see on the logo face that the Registered mark ® is not present on the Euro coin, otherwise the logo is the same as the 50 official one. As I am selling a collection on behalf of someone else, I shall sell this Euro token on Ebay as a singleton, the rest still await more sorting.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on July 02, 2017, 04:24:42 AM
I must seek one of those 1Euro  ::)


I now have the Euro 1 test piece with the NTT logo (the ® is omitted) 25mm Aluminium and edge reeded with seven indents.

Very similar to the flan of the 20 euro cent except this is 22.25mm and edge plain with seven indents

However I am no further forward with the reason for the test piece.
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on July 02, 2017, 10:20:04 AM
Since Birmingham and Utrecht are out of business now, maybe Roger Williams Mint (now TokensDirect (http://www.tokensdirect.com)) knows more.

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on September 09, 2018, 03:41:03 AM
Here is the full scan of the late John Tolson's article National Transport Tokens, TCS Vol 5.No.11
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: Figleaf on September 09, 2018, 09:05:51 AM
I am confident we have covered the national tokens (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/UK_National_transport_tokens) well in WoT, though I'd like to see the test tokens above added, but additional detail is of course always welcome. Thanks malj1!

Peter
Title: Re: UK national transport tokens
Post by: malj1 on September 09, 2018, 09:26:10 AM
Mention has also been made previously of proofs of some issues too.

Reply #60 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,6397.msg126818.html#msg126818)