World of Coins

Modern coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens of other continents => Pacific Islands => Topic started by: andyg on April 11, 2010, 01:47:29 PM

Title: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: andyg on April 11, 2010, 01:47:29 PM
These look to be a privately issued set IMO
I doubt you can spend them!

(http://www.pfalzmuenzen.de/images/1441_cook_2010_7.jpg)

more here (http://www.pfalzmuenzen.de/ShopNeuheiten_Maerz/1441_CookIslands_2010_neuer_Kursmuenzenjahrgangssatz/cda00df53b2d43b86154154df83e1a91/)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: chrisild on April 12, 2010, 08:42:14 AM
I doubt you can spend them!

Not sure whether they are private issues, but with that I agree. Thomas writes on his page - see your link - that the pieces are apparently "legal tender" but made for collectors and not intended for circulation. Also, the denominations and specifications are different from the (New Zealand) coins that are actually used there ...

Christian
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Bimat on April 12, 2010, 05:03:54 PM
The $1 coin does look good.. 8) I liked the design on 2 and 50 cent coin too..
Aditya
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Harald on April 12, 2010, 08:57:55 PM
they cannot be legal tender since they are not according to New Zealand coinage specifications.
since 1995 the NZD is the only legal currency. The earlier coins (and 3$ notes) were not demonetised
and remain legal tender (probably no longer circulating). the dollar coins of 2003 are already somehow doubtful.

BTW, the term "legal tender for collectors" is sophisticated nonsense. of course, collectors can use
them for payments among each other...

cheers
--
Harald
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Figleaf on April 12, 2010, 09:54:36 PM
It seems to me that sophisticated nonsense is a contradiction in terms. Deep dark brown icky nonsense? Horrid, unadulterated, spooky nonsense? Political spin?

Apparently, the Cook Islands have lost all self-respect for 10% of the take. How sad.

Peter
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: andyg on April 12, 2010, 09:57:29 PM
What's stopping them from issuing a circulation set again?
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: translateltd on April 12, 2010, 10:12:35 PM
they cannot be legal tender since they are not according to New Zealand coinage specifications.
since 1995 the NZD is the only legal currency. The earlier coins (and 3$ notes) were not demonetised
and remain legal tender (probably no longer circulating). the dollar coins of 2003 are already somehow doubtful.

When I was in CI briefly last year, the only "local" coins I saw were the $5 coins - I got a 2003 one in change.  All other coins and notes there appear to be NZ ones.

There have been earlier posts on this elsewhere in WoC, including some correspondence from our late High Commissioner in Rarotonga.

Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 05, 2015, 06:43:09 AM
(http://www.joelscoins.com/images/cookset10.jpg)

Here is the Cook Islands 2010 set. Now, I believe that one never circulated. This one, we are told, will be different.

This set is fantasy set, issued by a European dealer
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 05, 2015, 01:10:42 PM
Very bad. That dealer could get into trouble with the Cook Islands.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 05, 2015, 02:49:35 PM
Sure, he would when he visits Cook Islands.

How can he visit Cook Islands Since he does not know where those islands are?

Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on March 06, 2015, 05:49:38 PM
I believe many of these coins were minted as on Numista much more people entered the "fantasy" series to their online collection than the coins of the official series. It's a shame but, what can these governments do about it ? It is one of the many problematic countries which are being used by certain companies to mint coins for without permission.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Prosit on March 06, 2015, 09:45:33 PM
Fairly nice designs though.
Dale
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 07, 2015, 08:35:49 AM
Nonetheless, New Zealand as the world's tenth largest currency traded in the world always contracts out all of its coinage production.

Currency trading is basically shifting some bytes of data on computers and has little to do with coinage.

Sweden has been outsourcing its coinage for quite some time now and Denmark has just joined its neighbour recently. Neither the local population needs physical currency nor the population size justifies economies of scale of coin production. Few months back, I was surprised to see a person paying 5 Krones for ice cream by a credit card. In Belgium, many small shops would charge extra if you try to pay less than 10 Euro by credit card.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 12:22:54 PM
This set is fantasy set, issued by a European dealer

I have now applied the acid test: I checked Gerhard's Katalog, and the Cook Islands 2010 set is included. Gerhard only includes official issues by recognised states, and also official issues by unrecognised states that hold power over the territory they control (such as Transnistria).

So, the Cook Islands 2010 set did not circulate. This was a "circulation-like" set, with different denominations, but did not circulate. It was an official set but issued only for collectors. I have started a topic about such "circulation-like" issues:

Deceptive Pseudo-Coin Sets. (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30941.0.html)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 08, 2015, 01:11:10 PM
Gerhard succumbed to same weakness as George Cuhaj.
To me the only test to distinguish between coin and a non - coin ( call it token, fantasy or a product of mint games) is that
A) it should be a legal tender
B) it should be generally accepted in the specified region by public at large and issued by the concerned authorities, at face value.


In this case,if Cook Islands had authorised it then it should have had at least same denominations as existing circulation coins.

1000 Euro coin in gold, issued at face value by France fails this test as do the bimetallic, 1 Turk Lirasi pieces, minted by Turkish mint, released with press release but with various animals. These bimetallic pieces have the same specifications as actual 1 Turk Lirasi coin and are capable of fooling the vending machines but they are not coins since they are not legal tender nor issued at face value by the Turkey National Bank.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 01:19:34 PM
Here is how I see it:

Official coins fall into three categories:

1] Standard circulation coins. These coins are usually minted with the same design for several years.

2] Commemorative circulation coins.  These are one-year coins that also circulate. In the UK, 50 pence, 1 pound and 2 pound coins are used for this purpose.

3] Collector coins. These are usually commemorative coins and are often described as "legal tender". However, normally they do not circulate, since they are intended for collectors. "Circulation-like" sets that do not circulate also fall under this heading.



Unauthorised pieces are fantasies - plain and simple.  ;)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Prosit on March 08, 2015, 01:24:44 PM
Looking at that 2010 set and then looking on eBay I see a different dollar coin for 2010 which I do see in the Krause catalog. I don't see the bimetallic one listed.

I have 11 coins for Cook Island but nothing for 2010. None of these I have look like they ever circulated. I like them anyway.

Dale
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: andyg on March 08, 2015, 01:26:56 PM
In this case,if Cook Islands had authorised it then it should have had at least same denominations as existing circulation coins.

Martin (translateltd) once told me that Cook Islands government got 10% of the profits from the sale of these....
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Prosit on March 08, 2015, 01:30:38 PM
I would put at least some circulation-like coins under "Standard Circulation Coins" instead of collector coins but other than that I like your definitions.

Dale



Here is how I see it:

Official coins fall into three categories:

1] Standard circulation coins. These coins are usually minted with the same design for several years.

2] Commemorative circulation coins.  These are one-year coins that also circulate. In the UK, 50 pence, 1 pound and 2 pound coins are used for this purpose.

3] Collector coins. These are usually commemorative coins and are often described as "legal tender". However, normally they do not circulate, since they are intended for collectors. "Circulation-like" sets that do not circulate also fall under this heading.



Unauthorised pieces are fantasies - plain and simple.  ;)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 08, 2015, 01:32:01 PM
Many times, commemorative coins are never issued into circulation.

Also, many commemorative coins are issued for several years whereas there are cases where circulation coins were minted only for one year only. I can quote examples if so required.

Commemorative coins should have some association with the year in which they are minted and not like US 1 dollar of Native American, UK 1 Pound with flowers of Wales etc., or Serbia 20 Dinara with a personality with no link to the year of minting.

If collector coins are made, like earlier 2 Zloty of Poland , without any link to physical specification of existing circulation coin of same denomination then it is a token. It took Poland several years to understand that.

If Cook Island had permitted 2010 set the they should have a triangular 2 Dollar set as existing set which also was issued in 2010. Also, 1 Dollar of actual coinage was issued in 2010 and was of Copper Nickel and not bimetallic.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 01:44:04 PM
I would put at least some circulation-like coins under "Standard Circulation Coins" instead of collector coins but other than that I like your definitions.

Dale

The point of my category of "circulation-like" coin sets is that these coins look like circulation coins but do not circulate. "Standard Circulation Coins" absolutely do circulate. The two categories are mutually exclusive. These categories are entirely my own - others will have their own.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 01:50:46 PM
Also, many commemorative coins are issued for several years whereas there are cases where circulation coins were minted only for one year only. I can quote examples if so required.

Yes, that's another category: one-year-only circulation design series, e.g. the Canada 1967 Centennial set.

Commemorative coins should have some association with the year in which they are minted and not like US 1 dollar of Native American, UK 1 Pound with flowers of Wales etc., or Serbia 20 Dinara with a personality with no link to the year of minting.

Yes. "Special coin" would be a better term for these. The UK comprises 4 nations and uses the coins to honour each one in turn, using thematic subjects rather than commemorative ones.

Quote
If collector coins are made, like earlier 2 Zloty of Poland , without any link to physical specification of existing circulation coin of same denomination then it is a token. It took Poland several years to understand that.

No, it's a collector coin.  :D  Don't confuse the matter. A collector coin is an official issue, even if it doesn't circulate. Tokens are not official issues. They come in lots of categories, as the token boards on the forum show.

Quote
If Cook Island had permitted 2010 set, then they should have a triangular 2 Dollar set as existing set which also was issued in 2010. Also, 1 Dollar of actual coinage was issued in 2010 and was of Copper Nickel and not bimetallic.

What does this other 2010 dollar coin look like?
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 08, 2015, 01:54:23 PM
Looking at that 2010 set and then looking on eBay I see a different dollar coin for 2010 which I do see in the Krause catalog. I don't see the bimetallic one listed.

Which year SCWC are you looking at?
Kindly see 2015 SCWC which has been extensively revised.
The standard circulation 1 Dollar is listed as
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Prosit on March 08, 2015, 02:20:46 PM
Consider the US dollar coins up to 2011 and the half dollars up to 2001.
Made to circulation specifications, made in numbers to circulate and the government had every intention that they would/should circulate. Most were available at banks in any quanity or were able to be had in any quanity at face value.

However the public doesn't circulate them.

That to me is "circulation-like coins" that I would catagorized under circulation coins and not collector coins. Not the other coins you likely are referring to which are collector coins that are circulation like in some fashion.

Since 2011 the US dollars and since 2001 the US halves are strictly collector coins. Absolutely no ambuguity about those later coins in my mind.

Dale


The point of my category of "circulation-like" coin sets is that these coins look like circulation coins but do not circulate. "Standard Circulation Coins" absolutely do circulate. The two categories are mutually exclusive. These categories are entirely my own - others will have their own.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 08, 2015, 02:24:54 PM
I have now applied the acid test: I checked Gerhard's Katalog, and the Cook Islands 2010 set is included. Gerhard only includes official issues by recognised states, and also official issues by unrecognised states that hold power over the territory they control (such as Transnistria).

Which WMK did you see?
2015 WMK does not list that fantasy issue.

Here is what WMK lists and balance 2 coins in 2015 SCWC
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 04:08:42 PM
Which WMK did you see?
2015 WMK does not list that fantasy issue.

Here is what WMK lists and balance 2 coins in 2015 SCWC

2013. So was it authorised or wasn't it? That's the trouble that fantasy issues cause - you can't always be sure which is fantasy and which is genuine.

I don't know when the Cook Islands stopped issuing its own coins. They had problems in 1994, when the NZ banks realised that the Cook Islands, which ran a currency board, were not fully backing their notes - each one was backed only 95%! So then the islands returned to using NZ coins and currency, but they still kept those coins of their own, that had already been issued, in circulation. So it's a complex issue. Good to see their hermaphroditic god, Tangaroa, still appears on the dollar.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 04:20:09 PM
Well, yes, that muddies the waters further. In that case, I would add whether the government / Treasury / Mint intended that a coin should circulate. This should be apparent from the mintage numbers. So those US coins that are disliked by the public should in no way be put in the same category as, say, the BVI "circulation-like" coin sets of the 1970s that were meant for collectors and never meant to circulate.

This is beginning to remind me of "The Life of Brian" - the part where a member of the Judean Liberation Front says ,"What did the Romans ever do for us?" - supposedly a rhetorical question, but the other members start giving all the answers: roads, aqueducts, ice cream (I jest), etc.  ::)

Consider the US dollar coins up to 2011 and the half dollars up to 2001.
Made to circulation specifications, made in numbers to circulate and the government had every intention that they would/should circulate. Most were available at banks in any quanity or were able to be had in any quanity at face value.

However the public doesn't circulate them.

That to me is "circulation-like coins" that I would catagorized under circulation coins and not collector coins. Not the other coins you likely are referring to which are collector coins that are circulation like in some fashion.

Since 2011 the US dollars and since 2001 the US halves are strictly collector coins. Absolutely no ambuguity about those later coins in my mind.

Dale

 
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 08, 2015, 04:37:04 PM
2013. So was it authorised or wasn't it? That's the trouble that fantasy issues cause - you can't always be sure which is fantasy and which is genuine.

I don't know when the Cook Islands stopped issuing its own coins. They had problems in 1994, when the NZ banks realised that the Cook Islands, which ran a currency board, were not fully backing their notes - each one was backed only 95%! So then the islands returned to using NZ coins and currency, but they still kept those coins of their own, that had already been issued, in circulation. So it's a complex issue. Good to see their hermaphroditic god, Tangaroa, still appears on the dollar.

The 2010 set is a fantasy, irrespective of if any amount was paid to Govt. Of Cook Islands since they were never legal tender.
They have only three coins - 1, 2 and 5$.
All three with the new effigy were issued in 2003 and first two again issued in 2010.
Now a six coin series is being issued.
I work on only circulation coins.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 08, 2015, 04:50:10 PM
The 2010 set is a fantasy, irrespective of if any amount was paid to Govt. Of Cook Islands since they were never legal tender.

Well, the consensus seems to be that is a fantasy. However, if the govt. received money for it, then it would be an authorised official collector set and therefore NOT a fantasy. In the UK our five pound collector coins are legal tender, but I doubt whether very many shops would accept them. So legal tender doesn't really account for much. The important things are: is a coin, or set, an official issue? ; and does the public accept coins as spendable money - whether are not they are legal tender.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 09, 2015, 02:40:39 AM
In many countries of European Union, the circulation sets have 1, 2 and 5 cent coins but vending machines do not accept them. Countries like Finland, Belgium and Netherlands do not release 1 cent coin in to circulation. They are legal tender and in cash transactions, accepted without any hitch. 

The moment the monetary Union was signed, the Central Banks of these nations gave up their power to define the legal tender and that prerogative now lies with European Central Bank.

In other words, legal tender is a region specific definition.

5 Pounds in UK is defined as a legal tender but is not in generally accepted terms, a circulating coin. It does not form a part of Royal mint BU set.
1 and 2 p are defined as legal tender, but are not released in to general circulation, are accepted as circulating coins by public at large, mainly due to historical reasons so are circulating coins even though vending machines may not accept them in most of the cases.

I was in USA for three months and travelled across 7 states. Never did I come across a 50 cent or 1 dollar coin. All vending machines, except New York metro ( tube) accepted coins other than quarters.
1 cent coins were accepted at cash counters and freely given.  The mint issues 6 coin BU set but de facto only Nickel, dime and quarter are really circulating coins.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on March 23, 2015, 08:35:26 PM
Quote from: Government of the Cook Islands
The coins shown are authorised by the government as legal tender but do not circulate.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 23, 2015, 11:04:17 PM
You mean this set? So, it is a "circulation-like" set. It looks like a standard circulation set, but it doesn't circulate and is meant only for collectors.

(http://www.joelscoins.com/images/cookset10.jpg)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 23, 2015, 11:54:34 PM
Who in Cook Islands approved it?
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on March 24, 2015, 06:50:47 AM
You mean this set? So, it is a "circulation-like" set. It looks like a standard circulation set, but it doesn't circulate and is meant only for collectors.

Correct.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 24, 2015, 07:12:21 AM
So for year 2010, two different design coins were approved. One for circulation and it circulated and another one for collectors of Europe. Cook Islands have always got their coins minted from Royal Australian Mint and that mint has not made bimetallic coins. To get collectors of Europe interested in this set, a bimetallic coin was included. This was never approved, as informed by Executive Secretary to the Finance minister of Cook Islands.
Can you inform us as to who was granted this permission and which mint minted it. I would also be interested in know as to how many sets were minted? The mintage coincided with minting of set of Sultanate of Pemba as well as Andaman and Nicobar Islands. So I am assuming that they were also authorised by some authority in some place.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 24, 2015, 09:01:03 AM
I believe the Cook 2010 set may have been a product of the New Zealand mint, a private company:

http://www.nzmint.com/faq
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on March 24, 2015, 11:55:35 AM
What is the basis of your guess?
Does this mint have capacity to produce bimetallic coins?
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 24, 2015, 01:59:07 PM
What is the basis of your guess?

See this topic: Pseudo Sets: Official "circulation-like" issues (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26788.0.html).

> Does this mint have capacity to produce bimetallic coins?

That I don't know, sadly.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on March 25, 2015, 12:51:16 PM
Although it's a good guess, New Zealand Mint informed me that they weren't involved in the production of this set.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on March 25, 2015, 02:30:16 PM
Thanks for the info, eurocoin.  ;)
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on April 17, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
So for year 2010, two different design coins were approved. One for circulation and it circulated and another one for collectors of Europe. Cook Islands have always got their coins minted from Royal Australian Mint and that mint has not made bimetallic coins. To get collectors of Europe interested in this set, a bimetallic coin was included. This was never approved, as informed by Executive Secretary to the Finance minister of Cook Islands.
Can you inform us as to who was granted this permission and which mint minted it. I would also be interested in know as to how many sets were minted? The mintage coincided with minting of set of Sultanate of Pemba as well as Andaman and Nicobar Islands. So I am assuming that they were also authorised by some authority in some place.

This set is non circulating legal tender. There have been produced 25.000 sets. The coins have been minted at the BH Mayer Mint. SoftSky Inc. in Sheridan, Wyoming was granted permission to issue this set. All sets have been exclusively distributed by Coin Invest Trust in Liechtenstein.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on April 17, 2015, 08:54:11 PM
Excellent research, eurocoin.  Who gave you the information?
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on April 17, 2015, 09:03:29 PM
Excellent research, eurocoin.  Who gave you the information?

Thanks <k>, The CEO of the Ministry of Finance of the Cook Islands gave me this information.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on April 17, 2015, 09:38:18 PM
Thank you. So that's official: the 2010 set is not a fantasy, but neither did it circulate.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: Pabitra on April 22, 2015, 08:09:18 AM
This set is non circulating legal tender.

If it did not circulate in Cook Islands then where is it legal tender?
People in Cook Islands have never seen these coins hence will neither accept them nor are legally bound to accept them.
In other words, it is NCNLT.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: <k> on April 22, 2015, 10:57:43 PM
You are quite right that "non-circulating legal tender" is a contradiction in terms. However, various countries use the term "legal tender" to show that coins are official, and yet nobody would expect to be able to spend them in a shop. We could argue over the terms, but it is obvious now that this set is in fact official, even though it will never circulate. Therefore we can finally conclude that it is not a fantasy, though it definitely belongs in that grey area that I have called "circulation-like" sets.

So, if Gerhard includes the TDC Gough Island set in his Katalog, just because it is "official", then to be consistent he should include this one too. This does not mean that it is given any stamp of numismatic approval, because if, like Figleaf, you despise this type of collector item, then you will not want to own it in any circumstances. As Figleaf says, "Caveat emptor". But above all, eurocoin deserves credit for researching this and establishing beyond doubt that it is an official Cook Islands collector issue and not a fantasy.
Title: Re: Cook Islands: Series of coins 2010
Post by: eurocoin on June 05, 2015, 08:51:42 PM
So, if Gerhard includes the TDC Gough Island set in his Katalog, just because it is "official", then to be consistent he should include this one too.

According to Mr Krämer the 2015 edition of the WMK includes the set of Cook Islands coins dated 2010 as #1594-1600.