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Other tokens and medals => Not used for payments => Topic started by: taylorandheaton on December 17, 2019, 12:38:20 PM

Title: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 17, 2019, 12:38:20 PM
Hi All,
I need to check a German token info. from Peter Menzel books. Does someone have below book and help ? Thx in advance.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191217/7a22020c9cf26dea87ae6892a1aadb74.jpg)


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Henk on December 17, 2019, 07:20:01 PM
I have the book and also the newer editions and I am willing to help with any questions you might have.
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 17, 2019, 07:38:03 PM
I have the book and also the newer editions and I am willing to help with any questions you might have.
Many thanks Henk!Could you check Menzel 4287.1.2 and let me know what its commentating note or any pictures for this token please?Cheers Tian
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: jezuss on December 17, 2019, 09:05:40 PM
the numbers in the catalog change with every new edition...
and there are no pictures in the new editions.
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 17, 2019, 09:10:46 PM
the numbers in the catalog change with every new edition...
and there are no pictures in the new editions.
Many thanks! Now just post its PCGS picture for all,wish to get more info.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191217/9209068b951efd7c0d981f7c02f96ada.jpg)


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: jezuss on December 17, 2019, 10:52:31 PM
as there are no pictures in the catalog, it is difficult to find a token without text...
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 17, 2019, 10:56:59 PM
as there are no pictures in the catalog, it is difficult to find a token without text...
Thanks again!


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Figleaf on December 18, 2019, 09:18:05 AM
I presume PCGS would have the latest edition and the catalogue number is known. That should help, shouldn't it?

Peter
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: jezuss on December 18, 2019, 09:35:54 AM
the catalog number changes in every new edition of the catalog...
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: jezuss on December 18, 2019, 09:42:15 AM
4287.1 is a 18mm beer token from j. hahn in the catalog from 2005
in the catalog from 2014 it is a 20.5mm beer token from brauerei k gotschalk.
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Figleaf on December 18, 2019, 10:04:01 AM
Menzel changes the numbering because he inserts newly discovered types. So there are your indications: a 10 pfennig from an issuer whose name starts with H, or maybe two or three letters beyond in the alfabet, with a military sailor.

Peter
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Henk on December 18, 2019, 10:09:46 AM
I cannot check the entry in the "old" Menzel catalog as I have stored it and only have the new edition at hand now.

First of all the attribution to Kiau Chau is daubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder. In the newest Menzel (2018) the token is not listed for Kiau Chau. It is listed however as number 2951 with issuer Paul Herpig, owner of a clothing store in Berlin. This token exists with several varieties of the reverse.

I attach a picture of one of these tokens.

These tokens are also listed, and illustrated, in the book: Berlin Marken und Zeichen by W. Hasselman (1987).This book also lists a small medal, identifying the man on the obverse of this token as: Schuster Wilhelm Voigt, Der Falsche Hauptmann von Köpenick. This is a shoemaker who dressed up as an officer of the German Army and commanded a group of soldiers to assist him in confiscating the money box in the town hall of Köpenick near Berlin. He was later arrested and his story was publicised widely and aroused lots of hilarious comments.

Can you post a picture of the reverse?
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 10:30:31 AM
Menzel changes the numbering because he inserts newly discovered types. So there are your indications: a 10 pfennig from an issuer whose name starts with H, or maybe two or three letters beyond in the alfabet, with a military sailor.

Peter
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/35762569a068d0d6c0143b30a15b04c7.jpg)



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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Henk on December 18, 2019, 10:48:29 AM
This reverse identifies it as Menzel (2018) 2951.4
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 10:53:46 AM
I cannot check the entry in the "old" Menzel catalog as I have stored it and only have the new edition at hand now.

First of all the attribution to Kiau Chau is daubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder. In the newest Menzel (2018) the token is not listed for Kiau Chau. It is listed however as number 2951 with issuer Paul Herpig, owner of a clothing store in Berlin. This token exists with several varieties of the reverse.

I attach a picture of one of these tokens.

These tokens are also listed, and illustrated, in the book: Berlin Marken und Zeichen by W. Hasselman (1987).This book also lists a small medal, identifying the man on the obverse of this token as: Schuster Wilhelm Voigt, Der Falsche Hauptmann von Köpenick. This is a shoemaker who dressed up as an officer of the German Army and commanded a group of soldiers to assist him in confiscating the money box in the town hall of Köpenick near Berlin. He was later arrested and his story was publicised widely and aroused lots of hilarious comments.

Can you post a picture of the reverse?
Many thanks for offering helpful info!


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 11:07:01 AM
I cannot check the entry in the "old" Menzel catalog as I have stored it and only have the new edition at hand now.

First of all the attribution to Kiau Chau is daubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder. In the newest Menzel (2018) the token is not listed for Kiau Chau. It is listed however as number 2951 with issuer Paul Herpig, owner of a clothing store in Berlin. This token exists with several varieties of the reverse.

I attach a picture of one of these tokens.

These tokens are also listed, and illustrated, in the book: Berlin Marken und Zeichen by W. Hasselman (1987).This book also lists a small medal, identifying the man on the obverse of this token as: Schuster Wilhelm Voigt, Der Falsche Hauptmann von Köpenick. This is a shoemaker who dressed up as an officer of the German Army and commanded a group of soldiers to assist him in confiscating the money box in the town hall of Köpenick near Berlin. He was later arrested and his story was publicised widely and aroused lots of hilarious comments.

Can you post a picture of the reverse?
Kiautschou used dollars/cents after 1907.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/890cec0a6aa654b68901355ab1b1544f.jpg)


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 11:13:10 AM
Attached used one stamp 25pfn
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/468f1b6f7e26f38e4cdd6f3c082486ea.jpg)

Maybe Menzel made a  big mistake before or P.H. stood for other meaning?
 


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 11:21:59 AM
4287.1 is a 18mm beer token from j. hahn in the catalog from 2005
in the catalog from 2014 it is a 20.5mm beer token from brauerei k gotschalk.
Many thank!Reference book should have fixed ref numbers. Otherwise,very confusion and not enough professional!


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 18, 2019, 11:37:57 AM
Another sample postcard (1906 Tsingtau,Kiautschou)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191218/97a17f806c42a16fda7daab6ca9cd39a.jpg)

So if its Kiautschou token,must be an early issued token ,no late 1906/07?Not sure how Menzel got its Kiautschou info for this token?!


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Figleaf on December 18, 2019, 01:10:17 PM
Most excellent teamwork, gentlemen! I think Paul Herpig is credible. A Berliner celebrating the Kapitän von Köpenick is very credible also.

Peter
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Henk on December 18, 2019, 04:22:02 PM
I mentioned this
the attribution to Kiau Chau is doubtful as tokens from this area are denominated in cents, not in pfennig as stated on the holder.
because of the tokens stating a denomination from Kiau Chau all state "cents" no tokens from this area denominated "pfennig" or "Mark" are known.

The official currency in Kiau Chau was Chinese Dollars. The banknotes issued there by the Deutsch Asiatische Bank were denominated in dollars and Taels. The coins issued for this area in 1909, but scruck until 1913, have the denomination of 5 or 10 cents.

Resulting from the Boxer uprising in 1900/01 there were a large number of German sailors and soldiers stationed in Kiau Chau. For this reason the German post also sold stamps payable and denominated in Marks/pfennig. These were issued until about 1907.

There may of course have been tokens denominated in Marks/pfennig in use in Kiau Chau. None are known however.
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 19, 2019, 03:27:26 AM
I mentioned this  because of the tokens stating a denomination from Kiau Chau all state "cents" no tokens from this area denominated "pfennig" or "Mark" are known.

The official currency in Kiau Chau was Chinese Dollars. The banknotes issued there by the Deutsch Asiatische Bank were denominated in dollars and Taels. The coins issued for this area in 1909, but scruck until 1913, have the denomination of 5 or 10 cents.

Resulting from the Boxer uprising in 1900/01 there were a large number of German sailors and soldiers stationed in Kiau Chau. For this reason the German post also sold stamps payable and denominated in Marks/pfennig. These were issued until about 1907.

There may of course have been tokens denominated in Marks/pfennig in use in Kiau Chau. None are known however.
Thanks Again,Henk!
No obvious evidence to find common Pfn tokens in Kiautschou,but had some few early Pfn tokens on special occasions.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191219/f9ebfe9550ef37b8a53df0d8dc048c9a.jpg)


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: taylorandheaton on December 19, 2019, 03:31:11 AM
Thanks Again,Henk!
No obvious evidence to find common Pfn tokens in Kiautschou,but had some few early Pfn tokens on special occasions.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191219/f9ebfe9550ef37b8a53df0d8dc048c9a.jpg)


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Just a S.M.S token sample,also had more SmS samples used by Pfn in Kiautschou
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191219/28fd0db5461a8235d804259b9fb73c3a.jpg)


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Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Figleaf on December 19, 2019, 07:12:23 AM
The two very interesting tokens you show do not mention the currency. The 50 was used on-board SMS Emden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Emden), therefore it is practically sure that it is denominated in Mark/pfennig. The casino was likely to have been on-shore. That makes it more probable that it was denominated in Dollars/cents, unless the casino gave access to Reichsmarine staff only.

Peter
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: jezuss on December 19, 2019, 09:27:34 AM
31663. UNTEROFFIZIER-KASINO MI
MATR. ARTL. ABTLG.
KIAUTSCHOU
o.J., bds. (WZ), o.O.
1 10 Ms, 20,2 mm 75.-
Anm.: Unter (WZ) auf Vs.
klein "V."

i can't find the second token.
Title: Re: Help pls!Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: Henk on December 19, 2019, 12:46:36 PM
The second one is Menzel (2018): 38106.5
KANTINE S.M.S. EMDEN. No Year, Reverse Value
5: value 50, Brass, 25,1 mm It is valued at  € 35.-

The ship money is listed in a separate volume (file): Teil 4: Marken der deutschen Kriegsflotten
Title: Re: Help pls%uFF01Peter Menzel Reference book
Post by: malj1 on March 23, 2020, 12:42:55 AM
The S.M.S. Emden tokens are highly sought after in Australia where they command very high prices. I have the 10 and 50 [pfennig]

Commissioned in 1909 the Emden had a brief, but very successful sortie in the Far East at the beginning of the Great war, before being battered into submission off the Cocos Islands on the 9th November, 1914 by the Australian cruiser H.M.A.S. Sydney.

See here (https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/special-collections/foreword.php?specialcollection_id=365) for more.