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Other tokens and medals => Advertising, propaganda and numismatic artefacts => Private countermarks => Topic started by: eurocoin on November 20, 2019, 07:00:02 PM

Title: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on November 20, 2019, 07:00:02 PM
Occasionally I come across  reports of collectors who found coins with a countermark related to Brexit in their change. I had saved a few images on my phone and while cleaning again came across them. I found them too interesting to just delete so instead I will post them here. 
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on November 20, 2019, 07:01:08 PM
2 pounds coin of Gibraltar stamped with NO EU on it:

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=95701;image)
© Brian Wadey - Fifty Pence Coin Collectors Group 50p, Facebook
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on November 20, 2019, 07:01:57 PM
50p of the UK with an even clearer message of a remainer as found in circulation in Manchester:

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=95702;image)
© Barry Brophy, Facebook
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: Figleaf on November 20, 2019, 07:25:24 PM
Interesting topic. At least we don't have a problem of "you don't know when they were marked" with these. They are subject to another problem, though: the rule of demand creates its own supply. If it becomes clear the a 2 pound coin of Gibraltar is worth two pounds in Gibraltar, nothing in the UK and £5 to a coin collector or an eBay buyer, they will be produced "for the market", rather than to vent someone's spleen.

Peter

P.S. I have never understood why sex is a negative in English.
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on November 21, 2019, 11:19:10 AM
I haven't seen any of these yet so apparently they're scarce.

I agree that produced "for the market" is a very real possibility for these pieces. It's become a problem for the Troubles related issues that I track, but these are even newer. Very little time for the coins to acquire markers that help in authentication.

Of course the most important thing to consider is intent. If they were struck to promote a cause or point of view then they'd have to be considered legitimate. But how do you prove or disprove intent?

I'm currently in contact with a professor at the Fitzwilliam Museum (Cambridge) whose researching the history of "dissident money".I've shared a lot of what I know about the Troubles coinage with him, but the scope of his grant covers other countries too. If you have no objection, eurocoin, I'd like to forward your pictures to him. I think he'd be interested in seeing them.

Bruce

Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: Figleaf on November 21, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
Of course the most important thing to consider is intent. If they were struck to promote a cause or point of view then they'd have to be considered legitimate. But how do you prove or disprove intent?

I have actually dealt with the question of "proving" intent. Perhaps it helps if I tell you about my approach? The question was, how to define a long-term investment, something that boiled down to "the intention to hold on to the investment for a long time. What I did was:

List actors and analyse how well equipped they are. In this case, anybody can make them, but the British are most likely and Britons who have access to the required punches are even more likely. If the countermarked coin was purchased in say Nigeria, that says something. If it came from a UK school that teaches metal working that says something also.

List instruments and analyse what makes them most suitable. All coins can be used but e.g. those of the UK will circulate and spread the message. Circulated coins work better than proofs.

Give the two lists a generous amount of thought. Sort them by likelihood. Define a broad case of what is likely to be genuine. Test on known imitations and doubtful cases. In my case: is a tsarist railway bond partially repaid a century later a long-term investment? No. Intent to hold is lacking. The purchase of a large package of equity in order to claim a board seat is probably a long-term investment, but what if the buyer changes his mind and sells the package to a third party in a take-over bid? Buying real estate is normally a long-term investment. A day trader buying a 10 year bond is not making a long-term investment etc.

Peter
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on November 21, 2019, 03:24:53 PM
Several 'coins' have so far been issued by collectors related to Brexit, one of which can be seen here (https://www.amazon.co.uk/silverstan-Brexit-Designed-matching-produced/dp/B07MGZ726Y), so it is certainly possible that sooner or later someone will decide to start to mark legal tender coins with messages related to Brexit to sell the countermarked coins. As far as I know that has not (yet) happened though.

The 2 pieces in this topic were both found in general circulation.

You may certainly forward the images to your contact at the Fitzwilliam Museum.
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: andyg on November 21, 2019, 06:13:54 PM
I have an old pound coin stamped "OUT EEC" somewhere, received in change - I think I posted a picture of it when I got it (not that I can find it again ::))
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on November 21, 2019, 11:10:34 PM
Even in the extreme case of someone stamping a modern coin, selling it on eBay and then turning over the proceeds to a group he supports can be considered legitimate. If he pockets the money then it's not. So there we are, back to intent. Only the maker knows for sure. We can only speculate.

Bruce

Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on November 21, 2019, 11:28:36 PM
I have an old pound coin stamped "OUT EEC" somewhere, received in change - I think I posted a picture of it when I got it (not that I can find it again ::))
If you can find it, I'd love to see it. Do you recall the date of the coin?

 I got this example from a source in Vale Paraiso, Portugal not too long ago. The slogan "EEC / No" is a slight variation from yours, but the meaning seems clear.

The coin, a 1969 Irish 10p, fits into the timeline of the EEC well. While the concept of the European Economic Community was first proposed in the 1957 Treaty of Rome as a plan for the economic integration of future EU members, Ireland and the UK didn't join until 1973. Someone for whatever reason was opposed to membership.

Bruce

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: andyg on November 21, 2019, 11:47:45 PM
The pound coin is dated 1984, by the time I got it c2010 the EEC had long been renamed so I presume that it had been around for a while.
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on November 22, 2019, 10:10:30 AM
Thanks for the picture. andyg. Much appreciated.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on February 09, 2020, 03:18:55 PM
Three further pieces:

BRXT CON found in circulation in Rotherham.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=97023;image)
© Jamie Hatton - Coin Collectors UK, Facebook

Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on February 09, 2020, 03:19:29 PM
FÜCK BREXIT on a 50p found in circulation in or near Norwich.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=97024;image)
© Emma Edgar, Facebook
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on February 09, 2020, 03:20:24 PM
PEOPLE'S VOTE on a 2 pence coin of 2012 that is part of the collection of the Fitzwilliam Museum.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=39617.0;attach=97025;image)
© Dan Hicks, Twitter
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: eurocoin on February 09, 2020, 03:30:06 PM
The last coin was done by an anonymous artist in Bristol using the nickname Minty Mcfarthing. More on that can be found here (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/bristol-artist-stamps-peoples-vote-2342387).
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on February 09, 2020, 05:23:04 PM
Thanks for posting the pics of these three coins, eurocoin. Looks like there's the beginning of a cottage industry in the UK. While it's interesting, I don't think they'll have much influence in changing minds. The Troubles related coins probably didn't either, but there were so many thousands struck and circulated that it certainly influenced the government to ban them. Time will tell though.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on February 09, 2020, 06:10:47 PM
Sorry, but I forgot to ask. Do you know what the "Con" in "Brxt / Con" stands for?

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: andyg on February 09, 2020, 08:25:18 PM
It's a shortening of "Conned"

ie. Swindle / Defraud / Cheat / Deceive
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on February 09, 2020, 10:06:53 PM
It's a shortening of "Conned"

ie. Swindle / Defraud / Cheat / Deceive
Got it. Thank you.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: FosseWay on February 10, 2020, 08:03:08 AM
It's a shortening of "Conned"

ie. Swindle / Defraud / Cheat / Deceive

Originally a shortening of "confidence" - a "con man" is a confidence trickster. From that comes the verb "to con" = to defraud in that way, and the noun "con", an instance of this.
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on July 09, 2020, 12:22:16 PM
Here's a new example just seen on eBay offered by someone in Cardigan. I doubt this circulated at all, so may be made for "the market" I expect there are others examples.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: FosseWay on July 09, 2020, 04:27:59 PM
That's dated 2020 - is it on an actual Brexit coin?
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on July 09, 2020, 06:28:55 PM
Yes, it's a 50p. When would the coins dated 2020 be released for circulation? The piece looks brand new to me.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: andyg on July 09, 2020, 06:44:21 PM
Yes, it's a 50p. When would the coins dated 2020 be released for circulation? The piece looks brand new to me.

Bruce

The Brexit 50p is the only 2020 dated coin out at present. 
It will be a nice surprise if there are any other 2020 coins to be found in change....!
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on July 09, 2020, 06:59:11 PM
Here's a picture of the reverse.

Bruce
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: FosseWay on July 09, 2020, 07:57:24 PM
Yes, that's the Brexit coin. The choice of host for that particular message won't have been random  ;)
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: SandyGuyUK on July 10, 2020, 09:20:06 AM
I think that's the only Brexit 50p I would be trying to get in my collection.  I've not come across any in the wild - that's probably due to having only used coins once in the last 4 months!!  Either way, I'd be very torn if I got one of those in change as what does one do with a coin that represents something that one finds so hateful and negative?  That said, I do have some 1933-1945 German coins in my collection and I guess this would end up falling in the same type of category for me - i.e. we're collectors, not necessarily judges/arbiters of what is right/wrong...

There's a philosophical thought for an early Friday morning!

Ian
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: Alan71 on July 10, 2020, 09:40:00 AM
As they’ve defaced the obverse rather than the reverse, to me it’s as though they’re trying to portray the Queen as having that attitude!  The reverse has largely been left unscathed, as though whoever did this can’t actually disagree with its sentiment...

I have enough of these from my Strike Your Own Coin visit on 31 January, and as I haven’t used cash in almost four months (and don’t plan to again), the likelihood of me getting a Brexit coin in change is nil!
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: FosseWay on July 10, 2020, 09:52:49 AM
I wondered as well why someone clearly opposed to Brexit would deface the non-Brexit side, but I reckon it's just a case of practicality - it's probably easier to read the slogan if punched over the Queen's head than over other text.

As to having this coin in my collection (with or without countermark) - it is a bona fide coin of a country I collect, so yes, I would like one if I come across one even though my view coincides with the that of the counterstamper. But I'd rather have a genuinely circulation example as opposed to a BU in a pack.
Title: Re: Countermarks related to European integration
Post by: brandm24 on July 10, 2020, 11:08:25 AM
Yes, that's the Brexit coin. The choice of host for that particular message won't have been random  ;)
Yes, nothing more appropriate for this guy than that one.

Bruce