World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => India post 1947 => Topic started by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 08:03:00 PM

Title: Discussion: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 08:03:00 PM
Please see the attached photo. I purchased from a dealer online. As per mint information, the coin is supposed to be quaternary alloy. Do quaternary alloys have this characteristic? Or does it indicate something else?
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Navaneeth on September 13, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
This seems to be damaged or a fake coin (If got just the coin ). Please add some more images.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
Rest of the coin is perfectly OK. The area is very small, as you can guess from the size of letters and is visible only with a magnifier. The photograph was taken with considerable difficulty.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Figleaf on September 13, 2018, 09:13:31 PM
Are you thinking the coin is clad? Don't forget that smooth surfaces always look different from uneven surfaces, if only because the light is reflected differently. Maybe it's also the light, but it looks like this occurred on a proof coin. Proof flans are tortured even more than circulation dies. Something as silly as the metal being slightly polluted or badly mixed might have caused small slivers to break off when the coin is struck two, maybe three times under higher than normal pressure.

Peter
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 09:32:15 PM
It is not the light, i have tested it in all types of light and from all angle. I accept your explanation of the manufacturing fault. This one is a proof coin. What i didn't tell, and i should have told, is, i got this one at a much cheaper price ( the set is broken though) than that at which it is being sold by the mint. After knowing this, do you have anything more to say?
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Figleaf on September 13, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
It seems natural to me that if the seller sees that a proof coin looks damaged, he knocks the price down. In fact, if he had't done so it would have been more suspicious. But what do you think happened to the coin?

Peter
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Navaneeth on September 13, 2018, 09:39:24 PM
It is not the light, i have tested it in all types of light and from all angle. I accept your explanation of the manufacturing fault. This one is a proof coin. What i didn't tell, and i should have told, is, i got this one at a much cheaper price ( the set is broken though) than that at which it is being sold by the mint. After knowing this, do you have anything more to say?

If rest of the coin is ok and visible only with the lens.. then no need to worry as you have got at better price.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 09:44:09 PM
It seems natural to me that if the seller sees that a proof coin looks damaged, he knocks the price down. In fact, if he had't done so it would have been more suspicious. But what do you think happened to the coin?

Peter

I think you have got it in your initial reply. The first thing that came to my mind is electroplating  :)
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Figleaf on September 13, 2018, 09:51:01 PM
That is easy to check. Electroplated coins very often show a seam at the edge. A thick edge and some judicious heating and filing could hide it, but with that magnification, you ought to be able to spot a seam. In addition, electroplated coins are very often off weight. If your coin is overweight, it's sure to be a fake. Even when it is significantly underweight, it would be suspicious. Do remember that electroplating alone will not give you the proof effect and if you know how to make a fake proof effect, why skimp on the metal? You might as well use something like the real thing.

Peter
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 13, 2018, 10:01:05 PM
Thank you. Gained some knowledge today about coin production technology.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: kansal888 on September 30, 2018, 06:16:52 AM
Dear Rabi

Now a days, market is flooded with high quality Chinese fakes.

Please post a good high resolution image of both sides of your coin. Or alternatively contact me with a PM.

Regards

Sanjay

Edit: email address removed to prevent harvesting by spammers. Please exchange contact information by PM.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 10:21:56 AM
Well, proof coins are not legal tenders, so by faking, no one will jeopardize the economy. The price at which these coins are being sold is not that much and the market is also not that big ( proof coins are not mobile phones). So why will the Chinese people take that much trouble of sending fake proof coins over the Himalayas? Last time i checked, this forum is for grown ups.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Navaneeth on September 30, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
It's not about the jeopardizing the economy, its about fooling collectors like you and me. Fake coins are playing the major role and for some coins, its very difficult to identify even a from an expertized numismatist.

Many people sell these fake coins as original UNC or Proof sets and grab money from innocent people. 

Example: 1000 Rupees fake coins at $3, This gets replaced from Proof sets or sold as proof/unc coins for Rs 1500 - Rs 2000 online. https://bit.ly/2R5YhJn

Some of the greedy mint officials also sharing the originals which are getting faked. Till now the Shri Jagganath Nabakelebara coin hasn't opened for booking from Kolkata Mint, But already has it on many online platforms.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Figleaf on September 30, 2018, 10:38:01 AM
Last time i checked, this forum is for grown ups.

Personal attacks are not allowed here.

Whether proofs are legal tender or not is irrelevant. The fakes are meant to deceive collectors, not to be spent instead of genuine coins. Even if the proofs are sold at a low price, the profit margin is large and the risk practically zero. Chinese fakes can be found on the internet, offered as fakes, so the retail distribution risk is for the re-seller. In general, Chinese fakes are meant to defraud collectors. The only exceptions I know of are the current Chinese coins they fabricate (serves the Chinese government right for tolerating a fake coin industry) and plastic tokens for use in music events in European countries.

Peter
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 11:23:34 AM
Personal attacks are not allowed here.


Peter

Extremely sorry for that. Actually, i couldn't find out a better way to express my feeling when i found a open invitation( along with an email id) for coin grading, in a public forum, from some one whose level of expertise is not known to me.

Sorry once again.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 11:33:15 AM


 Till now the Shri Jagganath Nabakelebara coin hasn't opened for booking from Kolkata Mint, But already has it on many online platforms.

See, even you have made the same mistake. The coin has been released as JAGANNATH, not JAGGANATH(as spelled in the online fakes). These are the minute details that collectors are supposed to look at.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: dheer on September 30, 2018, 11:39:09 AM
Extremely sorry for that. Actually, i couldn't find out a better way to express my feeling when i found a open invitation( along with an email id) for coin grading, in a public forum, from some one whose level of expertise is not known to me.

Sorry once again.

Kansalji is well known numismatist. He is invited in several coin release ceremony. His views are sought by mint officials on various topics. He has ongoing efforts to highlight fakes.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Navaneeth on September 30, 2018, 11:50:13 AM
See, even you have made the same mistake. The coin has been released as JAGANNATH, not JAGGANATH(as spelled in the online fakes). These are the minute details that collectors are supposed to look at.

Very sorry.. Please don't take me for an ride ☺
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 12:02:20 PM
Kansalji is well known numismatist. He is invited in several coin release ceremony. His views are sought by mint officials on various topics. He has ongoing efforts to highlight fakes.

Are these facts written in his profile? I searched thoroughly for Sanjay Kansal ( including Google scholar) a did not find any book or research paper written by him, i did not find any citation. All i could find is he has designed the Mysore University coin. Thereafter i searched for Indian artists and designers associated with coin designing, i found nothing.

The problem is, in a virtual world , we don't know with whom we are talking. So engaging in a equal footing should be the best option.

By the way, i don't know even who you are or what your real name is.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Henk on September 30, 2018, 12:03:27 PM
It is not clear to me what coin we are talking about but the coin is probably silver or has a high silver content. The cheap Chinese copies certainly will not contain silver but will be silver plated. The damage/mark shown is in my opinion a file mark to test whether the coin is plated or not. The metal below the surface looks like copper so the coin appears to be plated and thus a fake.

As a check you should measure and weigh the coin. If it is not silver it will either be to light or to thick.

You state the coin is made from a quaternary alloy. In such an alloy the four components are thoroughly mixed so the colour of the metal should be the same both on the inside and on the surface.

In order to give a good judgement it is essential to see what the coin looks like and to know what the specifications are. So please post a photo of front and back and also give us weight and thickness. This information will all save us a lot of time.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Figleaf on September 30, 2018, 12:08:49 PM
I found a open invitation (along with an email id) for coin grading, in a public forum, from some one whose level of expertise is not known to me.

You have been informed about kansal888's credentials now. It is indeed our policy to remove email addies. It's part of our anti-spam effort (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26486.msg274638.html#msg274638). I overlooked this one, but I removed it now. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

For the same reason, we use handles, rather than real names. When you get to know the other person, you get to know their names as well. This helps to deal with other members, we think. Until trust is established, you can remain at a distance by doing nothing. BTW, I vouch for kansal888. You don't know who I am and now you know why. So what are you going to do about that?

Peter
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: dheer on September 30, 2018, 12:11:51 PM
Well, proof coins are not legal tenders, so by faking, no one will jeopardize the economy. The price at which these coins are being sold is not that much and the market is also not that big ( proof coins are not mobile phones). So why will the Chinese people take that much trouble of sending fake proof coins over the Himalayas? Last time i checked, this forum is for grown ups.
I am not saying the coin in discussion is fake. Needs complete images of both sides.

Almost all issues have fakes. See an ebook.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jvwFvOgazOPMm8LcYmLEXlmZibs4DIuM
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: kansal888 on September 30, 2018, 05:16:45 PM
Extremely sorry for that. Actually, i couldn't find out a better way to express my feeling when i found a open invitation( along with an email id) for coin grading, in a public forum, from some one whose level of expertise is not known to me.

Sorry once again.

Dear friend

Invitation was not for grading. You yourself posted a partial image of coin and sought opinion of this forum. We have so many Chinese fakes in the market that I was worried. Pls dont take it otherwise.

Regards
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 07:47:02 PM
Dear friend

 You yourself posted a partial image of coin and sought opinion of this forum.


A patient has lung infection and he goes to the doctor with a x-ray of the lung. Doctor tells him to come back with x-ray of the whole body.
I don't get the point.

See the curvature of the coin in the picture and complete the coin with an imaginary circle. How big will it be? It will not be less than a dinner plate. So if the coin is being shown at the size of a dinner plate, how much is the magnification?
This photograph has been taken with a 135mm Macro(APSC) f 4.5 lens( focussed at approx. 1.5 cms). Ask some one who knows about photography how much depth can be achieved at this setting.

Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Henk on September 30, 2018, 08:22:27 PM
Your questions:

Do quaternary alloys have this characteristic?
Answer: No

Or does it indicate something else?
Answer: Yes, the coin is damaged. 
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 08:28:35 PM
Exactly. I have paid approximately 1/5th the mint price. Since purchased online, i couldn't examine at this magnification. This is one problem of buying online. Anyway, since i won't sell it, it doesn't matter. Not visible without a magnifier.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Navaneeth on September 30, 2018, 08:33:13 PM
I have stated that this seems to be damaged or a fake coin in my first post and asked for the full snaps. Which ever camera or the lens you might be having actually doesn't matter here unless full coin snap of both sides are given. It makes easy for members to justify the coin is a fake or not and may help you to check with your online dealer.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: Rabi_R on September 30, 2018, 08:40:13 PM
Read what Figleaf has written earlier in the thread and i am convinced about what he has said. I don't feel the necessity to upload any more photos. In fact i had closed the discussion with a note of thanks to him. I don't know why this was once again opened today.
Title: Re: Opinion on this one please!
Post by: EWC on October 02, 2018, 09:44:57 AM
Which ever camera or the lens you might be having actually doesn't matter here unless full coin snap of both sides are given. It makes easy for members to justify the coin is a fake or not and may help you to check with your online dealer.

Afraid that is just not correct - it is not, in general, easy to spot fakes from photos - experienced numismatists will generally refuse to try it

Rob T