World of Coins

Collecting coins => Fakes and imitations => Topic started by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 26, 2018, 01:03:21 PM

Title: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 26, 2018, 01:03:21 PM
Fake patina made with multiple layers of paint or some other similar material. Not sure any more if the coin itself is old or new. Here is how it looked like when it first came from Pakistan, then after simple soapy water bath, and finally, when i started to peel off the layers of “paint”...Any comments / thoughts are much appreciated!
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 26, 2018, 01:14:02 PM
I think if I continued it would look somewhat like this:
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: THCoins on February 26, 2018, 01:24:09 PM
These practices have made me shy away from Bactrian bronzes originating from Pakistani sellers.
Unfortunately, i have seen both clearly genuine coins with had been stripped to the metal with acid, and clear fakes with a painted patina.
It becomes increasingly hard to judge these from a photo. Only thing i can say is that the mint marks on these two specimen luckily are not identical.
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 26, 2018, 02:36:38 PM
Yes, for me as well it will be a good experience to stay away from this type of coppers from Pakistan..I also had a more critical look at some other coins I bought earlier, and some CNG lots - I'm confident my Archebios piece i purchased in 2015 from Pakistan is covered with fake patina, as well as following CNG lots (these are the most obvious artificially patinated, but looks like there is much more of them in CNG database):

https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=347394
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=150978
https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=263988

P.S. Initially this Archebios coin was covered with a sort of sandy deposits, similar to these (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41576.msg262401.html#msg262401), but those were very easy to remove with a couple of touches of toothbrush in a soapy worm water...so, looks like fellas fake both patina and deposits :(
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: THCoins on February 26, 2018, 02:56:56 PM
In 2014 i complained with CNG because of a coin which mostly consisted of an artificial resin. Look here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,27656.msg183365.html#msg183365).

They promised to keep a closer eye on these, and also more often have added notes about possible tooling or restoration. From their photo's these are quite easy to spot because of the different surface structure of the filler. They did not stop to offer these "restored" coins though.
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 26, 2018, 04:22:01 PM
Holy bucket of nuts!!! :o What a thread of tooled coins..I'm spaechless..No wonder why these Pakistani rarities are so nice:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41677.msg262959.html#msg262959

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41600.0.html

Luckily, I declined the offer to buy the whole group of Indo-Greek scares coppers (Strato, Zoilos, Dyonysios, etc.) that were accompanying this Euthydemos II unit...But I was fortunate to have them photographed, measured and uploaded on ZENO..they are all tooled..legends re-carved and restored with resin patty…I will put my comments and warnings to the community there shortly.



Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Figleaf on February 26, 2018, 04:32:41 PM
Thank you for posting them here, vaxtankava. They will be an important reference for members and guests alike. May those who are willing to do anything for money one day eat painted rice and painted bread.

Fake patina is not a fad. There were times when collectors used patina as a way to recognise genuine or fake classical coins. Fakers came up with chemical patina in response, so it's no longer as important as it once was, but the more primitive fraudsters haven't got the message yet.

Peter
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 27, 2018, 01:57:42 PM
You are very welcome! I'm really happy and grateful to forum's community for assistance as well....There is one more thing I forgot to mention as a distinctive feature for all these tooled fakes - all coins literally smell chemicals, with sulfur-like odour. Hope it’s not hazardous for collector's health when one handles these items with bare hands or something.. :-\
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 28, 2018, 10:53:43 AM
I'm also pretty much sure following items (as well as CNG specimen) are modern fakes produced using the same tooling technology. I'm afraid most of Indo-Greek coppers posted so far by Desibot are modern fakes, presumably produced in Pakistan:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41533.msg262726.html#msg262726

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,41575.msg262309.html#msg262309

Same pertains to all following "coins" also:
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Figleaf on February 28, 2018, 11:31:47 AM
Desibot's high tendency to find fakes can only be explained by buying from the wrong dealers. However, the dealers may have been fooled in turn. I sent him a PM.

Peter
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Desibot on February 28, 2018, 03:21:19 PM
Hi thanks figleaf for the link message.  :)
Also to vaxtankava and Thcoin on your info on this thread
When buying I normally stick to my fave coins which are indo greek silver drachms  2g etc or sasanians coins . Mainly coins i have seen and handled and know about. I was looking to expand to other coins e.g gold coins and also copper/bronze indo greek coins. With limited knowledge on most coins
Any i did come across i posted on here for further help identifying them. Most coins i have shared from pakistan / afghan / india been offered from chinese dealers i come across.
But some sellers are in the u.k / Germany  i persume a wider network of counterfeiting . I did buy few cheap ones on my travels as personal study even though dodgy to get a feel of coins and examine closely in help indentify  casting /tooling etc which are all fairly new concepts to me understanding. Reading about cng and finding of other reputable company's dealing in coins that are not right  is shocking to say least :o i feel much safer with banknotes.
I have been in touch with various specialists who have
Offered help in identifying coins i have and some i posted on here and in due course will add any info to the relevant coin  post. I have too mention we do have our own resident specialist on Here who have been great in identifying coins on here. As for dealers i think on various local to high level will turn a blind eye for a fast buck :(. For now i think i stick to sasanian coins and drachms.


 
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 28, 2018, 07:23:08 PM
Looks like the problem is much bigger than I initially thought. I found dozens of similar fakes on sale and already sold by Vcoins dealers, such as this one (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_dionysios_ae_obol_jammu_very_rare/923305/Default.aspx)...And some reputable and well known dealers look to be hoodwinked by these fakes (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/coinindia/36/product/indogreek_hippostratos_ae_square_hemiobol_or_double_unit_zeushorse_rare/801976/Default.aspx) as well... :-\

Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Desibot on February 28, 2018, 08:59:29 PM
If you can help me out here guys when mentioning tooled coins
Does it mean

It is a Original .... coin modified to enhance it.
 faded or worn  parts etched out and resin or putty mentioned above added to correct legends or parts of a coin.

If coin is original and tooled further CNG etc should mention this when listing.

Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: PeaceBD on March 01, 2018, 01:34:35 AM
Looks like the problem is much bigger than I initially thought. I found dozens of similar fakes on sale and already sold by Vcoins dealers, such as this one (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_dionysios_ae_obol_jammu_very_rare/923305/Default.aspx)...And some reputable and well known dealers look to be hoodwinked by these fakes (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/coinindia/36/product/indogreek_hippostratos_ae_square_hemiobol_or_double_unit_zeushorse_rare/801976/Default.aspx) as well... :-\

This is a very good post. A lot of these coin coming out today are either outright fakes made in pakistan or are very highly doctored and tooled to improve grade. It is also not limited to bronzes but there are bactrian/indogreek silvers which are so good it would be hard to identify as fake unless die identical replicas are found.
This is not Bactrian/ Indo greek but here is another one from Vcoin. Look at the all his Roman bronzes. They are all equally colored/treated .
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/zurqieh-171/ancient-coins/_roman_-12243.aspx?#!/category/_roman_/?idCategory=12243&searchDisplayAsList=False&searchMaxRecords=100&store_order_by=dateadded_desc&countitems=2225&changeDisplayList=False&page=2
I will try to add some more images of Indo-greek/Indo Skythian fakes from my fake coin pics records.
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: PeaceBD on March 01, 2018, 01:35:38 AM
Azes Drachm Fake
Title: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: PeaceBD on March 01, 2018, 01:37:36 AM
Philoxenos Drachm Fake
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: PeaceBD on March 01, 2018, 01:39:06 AM
Menander Drachm Fakes
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: PeaceBD on March 01, 2018, 01:40:43 AM
Another
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Figleaf on March 01, 2018, 06:04:43 AM
If you can help me out here guys when mentioning tooled coins
Does it mean

It is a Original .... coin modified to enhance it.
 faded or worn  parts etched out and resin or putty mentioned above added to correct legends or parts of a coin.

If coin is original and tooled further CNG etc should mention this when listing.

You got it right about tooling. Third party graders and good dealers should refuse tooled coins. It says a lot that third party graders do not recognise the fakes and tooled coins. They are unable to live up to the immodest expectations they have created themselves. I am afraid that even in this large and well-versed group, we occasionally let a fake slip by or call a genuine coin a fake.

Peter
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 07, 2018, 07:49:15 PM
One more very suspicious item sold at an Auction (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2390&lot=264) recently... :-[
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 24, 2018, 10:39:48 AM
As far as I can see from this photo, majority of items are fakes, with same production method used - tooling / engraving on patty + artificial toning + applying a sort of dusty "patina". Again, I strongly recommend to all colleagues to stay away from any coppers from Pakistan!

P.S: Maybe it would be good to create a fix topic thread, named something like "Tooled forgeries from Pakistan"? This production method is much more sophisticated and dangerous than simple casting (or striking) of copies..and this problem is really overwhelming
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 24, 2018, 11:04:09 AM
Whoever produces them, it must be one individual or the same group, as stylistically these items are quite similar - all are somewhat cartoonish looking..

BTW, here is the "King" of such fakes on VCOINS: INDUS VALLEY COINS (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins-81/ancient-coins/solditems.aspx?#!/SoldItems?idCategory=0&searchDisplayAsList=False&searchMaxRecords=500&store_order_by=datesold_desc&countitems=1809&changeDisplayList=False&page=1)

Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: THCoins on March 24, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Makes me really sad to see these ! Spoils a lot of the pleasure collectors enjoyed from these in the past.
Regarding Indus Valley; i did notice their coins looked a bit "odd". Always assumed they just produced their pictures with a low-quality flatbed scanner.
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 24, 2018, 02:02:02 PM
..they just produced their pictures with a low-quality flatbed scanner.

I think it's also the case. I'm not sure if he does it deliberately, but it just makes identifying a fake more difficult...no wonder the number of fakes this individual already sold is just stunning  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 25, 2018, 09:00:58 AM
A couple more fakes from CNG:

367, Lot: 292 (https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=304267)

330, Lot: 151 (https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=263987)

CNG 87, Lot: 737 (https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=184200)
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: THCoins on March 25, 2018, 09:18:39 AM
Agree, these look suspicious. Strange contrast between the bumpy surfaces and the sharp lettering.
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Desibot on March 25, 2018, 09:57:05 AM
The cng lot are they confirmed by Bopearachchi
As his names in the detail?
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 25, 2018, 10:30:35 AM
I'm sure this is what would happen if one slightly cuts the legend letters on those "Bopearachchi confirmed" CNG items:

But nobody will do it to a "coin" bought for 1000$++, obviously. ;)
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 25, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
BTW, I think this current CNG item is tooled as well, as some letters’ shape and structure doesn’t feet into the rest of the legend….I have a feeling it was a fairly common Apollodotus II coin "refurbished" to be Strato II, since it is more scares:

417, Lot: 342 (https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=356383)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 28, 2018, 06:46:41 PM
Another highly likely Pakistani fake from an Auction (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2379&lot=2156):

Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on March 28, 2018, 08:30:06 PM
Your cutting experiment nicely shows what happend to my specimen. There one of the letters fell off spontaneously.
The last coin you show luckily has a good ;picture, it shows the typical putty+fake patina surface i feel.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 29, 2018, 01:52:08 PM
Here is some more of these terrible things from Pakistan: :-\
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 29, 2018, 02:03:53 PM
BTW, here is how they use putty on genuine rare but low grade coins. Pictures are before and after the coin was submerged in acetone:
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: PeaceBD on May 09, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
BTW, here is how they use putty on genuine rare but low grade coins. Pictures are before and after the coin was submerged in acetone:
Bactrianumis, thanks a lot for all the updates and identification of some of these very deceptive fakes which have shown up on the various reputed  auctions.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on May 13, 2018, 06:03:28 PM
Dear PeaceBD, you are welcome!
Here is another tooled fake from Pakistan:
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: Pellinore on May 14, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
There is one more thing I forgot to mention as a distinctive feature for all these tooled fakes - all coins literally smell chemicals, with sulfur-like odour. Hope it’s not hazardous for collector's health when one handles these items with bare hands or something.. :-\

If these fakes smell, it can't be too difficult to identify them as fakes - if taken in hand. Also, the weight might be a giveaway, and possibly one can do some trials as to the material when in hand? You are afraid if these 'coins' react with your hands. If they do, it must be possible to test the material without drilling holes or using your hands.

-- Paul
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on July 14, 2018, 07:34:39 PM
Some more of these fakes recently sold on VCoins by dealer "Indus Valley Coins":
INDO-GREEK APOLLODOTUS II AE OBOL JAMMU VERY RARE! (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_apollodotus_ii_ae_obol_jammu_very_rare/917703/Default.aspx)
INDO-GREEK DIONYSIOS AE OBOL JAMMU VERY RARE! (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_dionysios_ae_obol_jammu_very_rare/917697/Default.aspx)
INDO-GREEK STRATO II AE OBOL JAMMU VERY RARE & UNLISTED (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_strato_ii_ae_obol_jammu_very_rare__unlisted/917692/Default.aspx)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on August 05, 2018, 03:30:35 PM
Some more questionable coins offered on E-bay from Pakistan and UAE.
Looking at the sellers name this seems to be a family run operation. Almost all coins in their current inventory seem fake to me.
Seller 1 (https://www.ebay.com/sch/abdubillo_0/m.html), and his brother (https://www.ebay.com/sch/drbilloo/m.html) ?
This starts to take the form of a pandemic.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Pellinore on August 05, 2018, 03:47:37 PM
The Smast coins, too?
— Paul
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Overlord on August 05, 2018, 04:08:24 PM
and his brother (https://www.ebay.com/sch/drbilloo/m.html) ?
Wouldn't think he would sell fake coins (to borrow from an old Lucas Arts game, where one of the lead characters says it rather innocently), "after all, he is a doctor".   :D >:D
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on August 05, 2018, 10:08:24 PM
An interesting idea on ZENO of how CNG tooled fakes are related to Senior and ONS:

https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=78877

Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on August 06, 2018, 11:52:01 AM
Some serious points being raised. But good to have the discussion out in the open.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on August 06, 2018, 06:15:59 PM
If some completely unknown Pakistanis do a fake coin racket that's one thing. If they are aided and abetted by a very well known expert, that's quite another thing. I am, frankly, at a loss how to handle this. I hate coin fraud, but I also know what it's like to be falsely accused and I am not equipped to find out what's true and false myself. Is Zeno, or anyone doing something?

Peter
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Oesho on August 10, 2018, 12:13:38 AM
Via ZENO I contacted Andrew Freeston. As he refers particularly to coins recently published in the Journal of the Oriental Numismatic Society my suggestion was to publish an article in this Journal which would be the best forum to discuss this matter.
As for as tooling of coins is concerned, this is something which is going on for sometime. Andrew Freeston appears to think that whatever Bob Senior had published in his ISCH vol. 4 in terms of late Indo-Greek rulers such as Strato II/III/Philopator/Dikaios was fake because the Kharoshthi letters do not match coins of other rulers published earlier and/or known from other groups. This is an odd sort of inference, particularly when very little in the wake of coins attributed to these kings was published even in Bopearachchi, let alone early contributions like Whitehead. These coins have been largely unknown to these authors, but now we do have many of them. In the long history of Indian Numismatics, this is not a ‘new’ phenomenon by any means – we can think of several series which were virtually unknown even 20-30 years ago, but now abound in collections and literature. Crude engraving of letters alone, IMHO, cannot be a precondition to judge the coins are ‘fakes’. The letters may be crudely engraved but the legends are still very much legible.
For whatever it is worth, I’d be happy if this debate comes out into the academic side of discourse. If it is confined on forums like ‘World of Coins’ or ‘Zeno’, I am afraid it only assumes the form of an impersonal conversation, which is not an academically valid, or ‘referenceable’ in any way. And like all impersonal discussions, it has the tendency to get ‘hot’ very fast, because the gloves can easily come off!
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on August 10, 2018, 10:41:08 AM
Thank you, Oesho. It is reassuring to know that a sane and civilised dialogue is developing. Neither a cover-up not a shouting match is useful. I agree that this dialogue should be between experts. However, in my opinion, non-experts can follow and comment on the dialogue, as long as they keep their comments sane and civilised.

In my opinion, the different writing styles are a point of worry, as long as it occurs in one isolated find. Of course, writing styles can change over time. I have had to learn to read 17th century handwritten Dutch at an age I could read contemporary texts fluently. However, the writing style changes gradually over time, not with a big bang. I would like to know if transitional coins exist, partly in old style, partly in new style characters. Yes, I am aware that a character set could be introduced by a ruler, such as Mongolian script by Kublai Khan. That concerns a whole new way of writing, though, not a more or less subtle change in forming characters. Yet, you could throw simplified Chinese at me and my only argument would be that it is the exception confirming the rule. In short, I am not ready to accept or reject the writing style argument.

Next, there is Senior's extraordinary clairvoyance that Freeston mentions. I do not believe you can predict the future. If Senior did not make some false predictions as well, I would be highly suspicious.

Then, there is the question if the fakes (they are clearly fakes, they fall apart when cleaned and they smell) Bactrianumis mentions in this thread come from the same population as the coins Freeston is talking about.

I would very highly appreciate if you'd keep us informed, Oesho. This needs to be handled well and therefore transparently, or the hobby as well as the science suffer.

Peter
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on August 10, 2018, 01:52:54 PM
Also i will be following the discussion with interest !

Anthony
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 20, 2018, 08:10:50 AM
Just another example demonstrating CNG attitude towards tooled coins. In this case it is not fakes, but cleaned and artificially patinated coins, further presented by CNG "experts" as "Near VF, dark brown patina..". Below are photos before and after cleaning and patination:
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on November 20, 2018, 10:20:28 AM
Just another example demonstrating CNG attitude towards tooled coins. In this case it is not fakes, but cleaned and artificially patinated coins, further presented by CNG "experts" as "Near VF, dark brown patina..". Below are photos before and after cleaning and patination:

I do not understand this mail.  Were they green when offered by CNG or brown?  If brown (as you state) - where were they re-patinated green, and by who? 

Rob T
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on November 20, 2018, 11:17:16 AM
I think they were offered brown by CNG. It would be unlikely that they would sell coins with clear bronze disease spots untreated. Also the surface aspect of the brown coins is very much like some other suspicious coins that have been offerered through them in the recent past.
The consigner may have been right in treating these coins, but this manner of "preservation" is also not to my liking.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 20, 2018, 01:15:11 PM
I examined these 2 coins before they ended up at CNG. There was no trace of bronze disease, just dry sandy deposits, typical for Zabulistan finds. Identical pattern of artificial "brown" patina on numerous Central Asian copper coins offered by CNG, in my opinion, strongly suggests they are being treated by CNG itself, and not by consignors (unless there is one single consigner for all these coins, both tooled fakes and authentic, which is highly unlikely).
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on November 20, 2018, 01:33:43 PM
If these were just stable green deposits the treatment would almost become tooling and was unneccessary.
For the Indo-Scythian and Indo-Greek bronzes offered by CNG i have reasons to believe that these largely come from one single source. Don't know for the Central Asian category as a whole.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on November 20, 2018, 01:39:12 PM
I examined these 2 coins before they ended up at CNG. There was no trace of bronze disease, just dry sandy deposits, typical for Zabulistan finds. Identical pattern of artificial "brown" patina on numerous Central Asian copper coins offered by CNG, in my opinion, strongly suggests they are being treated by CNG itself, and not by consignors (unless there is one single consigner for all these coins, both tooled fakes and authentic, which is highly unlikely).

OK thanks.  Actually in the past I have been paid - not to clean coins - but rather to give an opinion about whether they should be cleaned.  I have to say in this case I would  have advised against it.  Re- Patinating coins after cleaning is entirely normal and has been going on for centuries.  That is how so many lovely Roman coppers got to look the way they do.  It is not from the soil.  However, I agree that in this case the job was badly done.  But all this seems to have nothing at all to do with "tooling".

Rob T
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on April 29, 2019, 08:59:09 PM
Couple more of recently auctioned tooled fakes:
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5687993)
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5688039)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on April 29, 2019, 10:01:51 PM
Thanks for adding. As a gradually see more of these they become easier to recognize. Still, this flood of fakes is very damaging for the trust of collectors and seems to deter many from pursuing new additions to their collections.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Oesho on April 29, 2019, 11:15:32 PM
Doctored or tooled coins can’t be described as fakes. It are most of the times coins found in an archaeological context with thick layer of encrustation. By trying to remove the encrustation mechanically there may be some aspects accentuating certain details. A more professional treatment and better preservation would prevent that. Nevertheless tooling doesn’t make the coin a fake, it remains still an authentic historical artefact, only the interpretations of some details may be effected by the way of cleaning.

The last coin shown above is IMHO an authentic piece and in no way a fake. It becomes a bit of a paranoia to call new discoveries (see earlier discussion in this tread) and somewhat ill treaded coins 'tooled fakes’ or forgeries, which they are not.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Desibot on April 30, 2019, 01:24:57 AM
Couple more of recently auctioned tooled fakes:
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5687993)
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5688039)

How can you tell they are tooled or fake from some pictures?

Without examining them in hand or any sort of testing.

 
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: gpimper on April 30, 2019, 04:30:36 AM
Fascinating.  Chopped originals or total fakes?  We've a number that turned out to be chopped down; Byzantine for the most part.  Need to learn more about how they do fakes.  I don't think we have any but you never know!  Thank you for the Indo-Greek shout out.  We'd not gone down that path...we've identified four more coins out of our mess.  We'll post :-)

Greg
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on April 30, 2019, 08:48:36 AM
Dear Oesho,
I had several of what you call "tooled coins" in my hand. When you say
Quote
only the interpretations of some details may be effected by the way of cleaning
i think you severely under-appreciate the facts. By new engraving and use of artificial resin and patination entirely new legends and pictorials are being created of which there was not a single trace left on the cleaned coin. For me that clearly crosses the border into fake territory. Also, these are sold with the intent of deceit.
That there is ample evidence of modern fakes emerging from Pakistan is another, but equally worrying matter.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on April 30, 2019, 09:07:16 AM
My reaction was similar to Oesho's

I can see nothing wrong with the second piece from the scan – and if it is fraudulent - then that does not seem to be due to “tooling”

Rob T
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on April 30, 2019, 11:51:47 AM
How can you tell they are tooled or fake from some pictures?

Without examining them in hand or any sort of testing.

Primarily, combination of the following:
- "sandy" deposits partially covering the surfaces - spotted only around high relief features of coin's legend (w. no traces of cleaning on bare parts of surfaces)
- form of letters in coin's legend
- black or dark green layer of tar-like "patination"
Secondary indicator – coin’s origin. Majority of tooled fakes I handled are from Pakistan.
Last but not least – turns out that combination «Indo-Greek/Bactrian Greek copper+newly discovered type» requires extensive scrutiny of the coin.
And let’s be honest – items with purposely reconstructed or altered features and legends, to represent the most sought after or unpublished types of Indo-Greek or Bactrian AE’s are not “authentic historical artefacts”, but forgeries/fakes intended to hoodwink the collectors’ community..
BTW, here is another one:
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5087169)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Desibot on April 30, 2019, 12:36:38 PM
Primarily, combination of the following:
- "sandy" deposits partially covering the surfaces - spotted only around high relief features of coin's legend
- form of letters in coin's legend
- black or dark green layer of tar-like "patination"
Secondary indicator – coin’s origin. Majority of tooled fakes I handled are from Pakistan.
Last but not least – turns out that combination «Indo-Greek/Bactrian Greek copper+newly discovered type» requires extensive scrutiny of the coin.
And let’s be honest – items with purposely reconstructed or altered features and legends, to represent the most sought after or unpublished types of Indo-Greek or Bactrian AE’s are not “authentic historical artefacts”, but forgeries/fakes intended to hoodwink the collectors’ community..
BTW, here is another one:
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5087169)


the coins have been confirmed by Bopearachchi
So is he wrong ?
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on April 30, 2019, 12:54:13 PM
Which exact types of coins you mean were confirmed by Bopearachchi?
This flood of tooled fakes from Pakistan occurred rather recently, well after Bopearachchi's works on Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek Coins were published
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Desibot on April 30, 2019, 01:16:58 PM
Couple more of recently auctioned tooled fakes:
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5687993)
acsearch.info - Auction research (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5688039)


Hi bactrianumis

Refering to these 2 coins are confirmed as genuine by
Bopearachchi
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on April 30, 2019, 01:51:26 PM
Quote
Refering to these 2 coins are confirmed as genuine by Bopearachchi

And that is greatly in contrast to the evaluation of world-wide collectors as expressed in the saleprices:
- The extremely rare huge Menander piece was sold for 264 Dollars.
- The two specimen of Telephos were sold for 216 Dollar. Also, these were sold on a "SOLD AS IS" condition, without any warranty.

That can not just be explained by these types becoming common overnight because of new finds.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on April 30, 2019, 04:01:05 PM

Hi bactrianumis

Refering to these 2 coins are confirmed as genuine by
Bopearachchi

Yes, he is wrong

Just curious, does Mr Bopearachchi think this following coin is also genuine?

Zeno - Oriental Coins Database - Indo-Greek Kingdoms, AE diobol, Menander I (https://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=186416)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on April 30, 2019, 04:51:32 PM
Maybe I am missing something, but I only see Bopearachchi's name on those pages as the author of the catalogue they are referring to. It seems that it's NOT Bopearachchi, but the auction house that claims them to be genuine.

Peter
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Desibot on April 30, 2019, 05:39:01 PM
Hi

Figleaf the 2 coins were part of my collection which i swapped for some islamic coins and ended up at Auction
When i had them they were checked by Bopearachchi personally in hand
When he visited me to check my collection.

So according to  Bactrianumis

The experts at Heritage and Bopearachchi who checked the coins in hand have got it wrong.

 



Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on April 30, 2019, 06:11:37 PM
...the 2 coins were part of my collection..
sorry Desibot, but imho it only contributes to the idea that those 2 coins are far from being genuine, given the avalanche of fakes you posted on this forum for "identification"
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Desibot on April 30, 2019, 06:24:54 PM
sorry Desibot, but imho it only contributes to the idea that those 2 coins are far from being genuine, given the avalanche of fakes you posted on this forum for "identification"

Im no expert on coins if i did post coins it was to help identify or get opinion on them from members with far more experience so if i have posted an avalanche of fake coins to help me in identifying them does that mean i personally associated to them and peddling them and now put into some slot with a tag.




   
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on April 30, 2019, 06:37:07 PM
No. Absolutely not. Since you have come up with them, it is quite obvious that you wanted the truth. You are only to be commended for that.

However, it does throw an awkward light upon the people you buy from. The number of fakes you have come up with is far larger than normal. We have tried to help you and I remember having advised you at least once to change your sources. At least one of them is taking advantage of you.

Peter
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Pabitra on May 01, 2019, 03:36:44 AM
The region suffers from large scale fakes to the extent that Govt of India has issued an advisory warning.

See

India struggles against fakes - Numismatic NewsNumismatic News (https://www.numismaticnews.net/article/india-struggles-against-fakes)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on May 01, 2019, 09:14:37 AM
In case of interest, here is a cautionary tale about fakes, snap decisions, and auction results

(PDF) Yorkshire detectorists discover Proculus coin | Mark Fox - Academia.edu (https://www.academia.edu/2568897/Yorkshire_detectorists_discover_Proculus_coin)

(PDF) Ancient coin marks out own path | Mark Fox - Academia.edu (https://www.academia.edu/3737937/Ancient_coin_marks_out_own_path)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Oesho on May 01, 2019, 01:50:59 PM
Quote
The region suffers from large scale fakes to the extent that Govt of India has issued an advisory warning.

See

India struggles against fakes - Numismatic NewsNumismatic News

If there is one coin-type in India, not at all worth to be copied it would be the Shivarai or Chhatrapati paisa. It was the principal copper coin of the Marathas and minted over a long period at many mints and therefore subject to an incredible number variations in spelling of the words on them, the weight, size and ornamentations. Besides the hundreds of varieties there will be also several contemporary imitations, so-called Kachcha paisa. It must be an extremely experienced numismatist who may be able to distinguish between original issues and imitations or fakes. In the article it is mentioned “The Numismatic Society of India, founded in 1910, has been recommended by the agency as a place where experts can check shivrai coins now appearing in the market for authenticity.”
This institution is not even able to prevent absolute nonsense to be published in their own Journal, how would they be able to come forward with a numismatic expert of which there is none among their staff, and to hire expertize they may not have the funds.

It is a funny article deprived of much practical knowledge of this particular subject and the Archaeological and Numismatic Institutions in India.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on May 01, 2019, 03:10:07 PM
This gives an extra dimension to the term "Fake news".
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on May 02, 2019, 01:12:06 PM
This gives an extra dimension to the term "Fake news".

Not sure I agree.  I certainly recall discussing the fact that most reporting of specialist topics in the press was in error, in 1973, long before that phrase became current

This whole idea of "Fake News" seems to me flawed.  Reporters, and many others, frequently make the all too human error of telling people what they want to hear, rather than the truth. 

Criticism of that tenancy seems easy enough to find in Greek and Roman text, arguably in ancient  Indian and Chinese text too.  Recent discussion of “Fake News” often seems to me to be itself, by implication, fake news.

Personally, I try to avoind the phrase.

Rob T
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on May 02, 2019, 03:26:09 PM
I meant it in a mathematical manner, the proper expression probably should have been: (Fake)^2 News.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: EWC on May 02, 2019, 03:28:19 PM
I meant it in a mathematical manner, the proper expression probably should have been: (Fake)^2 News.

OK, fair enough
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on August 31, 2019, 07:05:31 AM
Here is some more of Indo-Greek "rarities" (both were also posted here by Desibot, if I'm not mistaken).

This time these things are "authenticated" by ANACS:

NumisBids: Heritage World Coin Auctions Long Beach Signature Sale 3076, Lot (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3348&lot=33142)

NumisBids: Heritage World Coin Auctions Long Beach Signature Sale 3076, Lot (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3348&lot=33143)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on August 31, 2019, 09:42:17 AM
I still can't identify these fakes. As if another one was needed, this is one more example of TPGs unable to fulfil their brazen promise of being able to "guarantee" that a coin outside of North American numismatics is genuine as well as a reminder of the importance of self-education.

Peter
Title: Re: Copper unit of Bactrian Euthydemos II with fake patina / or fake as a whole?
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on October 21, 2019, 05:26:04 PM
Whoever produces them, it must be one individual or the same group, as stylistically these items are quite similar - all are somewhat cartoonish looking..

BTW, here is the "King" of such fakes on VCOINS: INDUS VALLEY COINS (https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins-81/ancient-coins/solditems.aspx?#!/SoldItems?idCategory=0&searchDisplayAsList=False&searchMaxRecords=500&store_order_by=datesold_desc&countitems=1809&changeDisplayList=False&page=1)

Second coin from this post recently sold on VCOINS by Indus Valley Coins:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/81/product/indogreek_archebios_ae_hemiobol_taxila/1081087/Default.aspx



Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 18, 2019, 02:04:35 PM
Another tooled fake, from Leu Numismatik AG:

NumisBids: Leu Numismatik AG Web Auction 10, Lot 725 : BAKTRIA, Indo-Greek (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3579&lot=725)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on November 18, 2019, 02:34:34 PM
Agree, this one looks highly suspect ! The characters of the legend are also far to unevenly placed. I would be tempted to treat this surface to some acetone first to see what comes off.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 18, 2019, 02:56:10 PM
Exactly! BTW, there is another one currently at LEO that is most likely a cast forgery. Traces of cast are camouflaged with earthy "deposits":

NumisBids: Leu Numismatik AG Web Auction 10, Lot 726 : BAKTRIA, Indo-Greek (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3579&lot=726)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on November 18, 2019, 03:54:02 PM
Apart from that it is likely cast, this coin for me also lacks all the signs of artistry which makes the original attractive.
Look here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,38656.0.html) for another, likely fake, posted previously to compare.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 18, 2019, 07:33:47 PM
..Look here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,38656.0.html) for another, likely fake, posted previously to compare.

Great, many thanks for the reference, dear Anthony! I was sure I already saw a similar cast item somewhere, but could not find it..
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: britanico on November 22, 2019, 11:14:17 PM
Bactrianumis

That Leu coin you posted has been withdrawn.  :)

NumisBids: Leu Numismatik AG Web Auction 10, Lot 725 : ... (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3579&lot=725)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: Figleaf on November 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Thank you, britanico. Grateful for all good news.

Peter
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on November 23, 2019, 07:05:26 PM
Bactrianumis

That Leu coin you posted has been withdrawn.  :)

NumisBids: Leu Numismatik AG Web Auction 10, Lot 725 : ... (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3579&lot=725)

Not only this one, dear britanico...but two more items as well... :perfect:
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 09, 2020, 03:34:43 PM
Video of one of these fakes being dissected:

Tooled forgeries of Bactrian Greek and Indo-Greek coins, part #1: Archebios (90-80BC) (https://youtu.be/C54ojRdPks8)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on February 09, 2020, 05:50:47 PM
The video is self-explanatory. I knew the outcome but still was shocked  :(
The coin was easily recognizeable for me because of the bump of the artificial putty under the elephant. I had previous first hand experience with that. It took some trouble picking it of with the scalpel blade. In my case, some Aceton dissolved the resin in seconds.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on February 10, 2020, 01:33:55 PM
Dear Anthony, thank you for your comment! I's going to be my stage #2 to apply acetone and I'll make another video shortly. Thus far I tried concentrated lemon juice and Leuchtturm coin cleaning absolution - artificial putty resisted against both.
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on March 17, 2020, 04:19:28 PM
Finally, some good news on the subject - looks like "vending machine" for these dangerous fakes on VCoins was shut down:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/indus_valley_coins/

But these crooks are still on ebay, although number of fakes is relatively low. BTW, on ebay they don't bother hiding their actual location - Pakistan, as it was the case on VCoins:

HEPTHALITE %u201CLORD OF CHIONITES-THE VICTORIUS%u201D AR DRACHM. | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/HEPTHALITE-LORD-OF-CHIONITES-THE-VICTORIUS-AR-DRACHM/193401022218?hash=item2d0799670a:g:a7kAAOSwPStegFne)

drbilloo on eBay (https://www.ebay.com/usr/drbilloo)

Indus Valley Coins | eBay Stores (https://www.ebay.com/str/indusvalleycoins)

And here is another distributor of these fakes, also from PK:

Indo-Scythian AZES (57-35 BC), AE unit - 8.56 gm, Senior 77.1 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com/itm/193433966719)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: BACTRIANUMIS on May 04, 2020, 03:05:35 PM
Another tooled forgery, this time from LEU Auc.:

NumisBids: Leu Numismatik AG Web Auction 12, Lot 741 : BAKTRIA, Indo-Greek (https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=3872&lot=741)
Title: Re: Tooled forgeries from Pakistan
Post by: THCoins on May 04, 2020, 04:36:09 PM
Luckily, many collectors will recognize these specimen now.
Unfortunately, i think there still are a lot of these where they are coming from.