World of Coins

Modern coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens of other continents => Sub-Saharan Africa => Central Africa => Topic started by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 01:15:32 AM

Title: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 01:15:32 AM
Hi all,

Can anyone tell me more about this coin please? I understand it's Brazilian Angolan reis (40?) but apart from that I don't know much more. It seems that many of these are countermarked, although this one is not. ĝ40mm, 29.1g. Not sure of the metal, maybe copper? Legend reads IOSEPHUS I D G REX P ET D GUINEĈ, reverse CIRCVMIT ORBEM PECVNIA TOTVM

Any information at all would be appreciated, e.g. denomination, mintage, rarity, value, when it was minted (can I assume 1757?) and legend translation.

Many thanks,
MBE
Title: Re: Brazil Reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 03:12:13 PM
 Am I barking up the wrong tree? Is this Angolan?  :-\
Title: Re: Brazil Reis 1757
Post by: FosseWay on February 22, 2016, 07:04:39 PM
It could well be Angolan. Angola KM 9 is not illustrated (in my edition) but the description fits and the date 1757 is listed. Brazil KM 184.1 is also not illustrated and also fits the description, but 1757 is not listed.

That is not to say that Brazil 1757 exists and it's just missing in (my) KM - stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Brazil Reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 09:10:05 PM
This link http://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces53250.html is to a KM 9 with photo, and it's the same as mine. So does this now belong in the Angolan section or the Portuguese? I'd still like to know a bit more about it if anyone can help.
Title: Re: Brazil Reis 1757
Post by: FosseWay on February 22, 2016, 09:33:18 PM
In terms of mintage figures I don't think I can tell you anything you haven't already found out from KM / Numismaster. I think we can safely assume it was minted in 1757 or a few years thereafter if a frozen date was used.

As to the legends:

IOSEPHUS I D G REX P ET D GUINEĈ is presumably in full IOSEPHUS I DEI GRATIA REX PORTUGALIAE ET DUX GUINEAE, or Joseph I by the grace of God king of Portugal and duke of Guinea

CIRCVMIT ORBEM PECVNIA TOTVM = not quite "money makes the world go round", but rather "Money (or wealth) goes round the whole world" - an astonishingly modern slogan for an 18th century coin, at a time when most coin inscriptions didn't do much more than list the monarch's title, glorify said monarch, glorify God or ask God to do something nasty to one's enemies. This slogan on the other hand would have been equally at home in Thatcher's Britain.
Title: Re: Brazil Reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 10:24:27 PM
In terms of mintage figures I don't think I can tell you anything you haven't already found out from KM / Numismaster. I think we can safely assume it was minted in 1757 or a few years thereafter if a frozen date was used.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Krause, and Numismaster only gives the mintage of the 1753. I have to say though, I think mine's a better example than any other I've seen thus far. It has some wear, of course, and some minor edge bruises but apart from that seems to be devoid of any disfiguring marks or scratches. I think it's quite a handsome piece. :)

Thanks for translating the legends.
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 22, 2016, 10:35:08 PM
Can you shift this to the correct board for me please FW?
Cheers, MBE
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Figleaf on February 22, 2016, 11:00:44 PM
I arrived on the scene too late to contribute much. Listed by Gomes (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,2710.0.html) as Angola Dom José I 04.04. Two variations: with and without flowers around the date. Diameter is correct and weight within observed margins (28.25 - 29.40 mm). While everything is always possible, a frozen date seems unlikely, as new types were minted date 1762. Five years doesn't look like an indecent interval.

Peter
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Afrasi on February 23, 2016, 01:04:16 AM
Great coin! I will dream of it tonight ...  :-[
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 23, 2016, 09:00:15 AM
I arrived on the scene too late to contribute much. Listed by Gomes (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,2710.0.html) as Angola Dom José I 04.04. Two varietions: with and without flowers around the date. Diameter is correct and weight within observed margins (28.25 - 29.40 mm). While everything is always possible, a frozen date seems unlikely, as new types were minted date 1762. Five years doesn't look like an indecent interval.

Peter

Thanks Peter, does Gomes list the mintage by any chance? Are you able to approximate a value for me? Although I gave away the Tornese I last posted about, this one I like, and will be keeping I think. :)
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 23, 2016, 09:01:30 AM
Great coin! I will dream of it tonight ...  :-[

Glad you like it Afrasi. I should really try to take some better pictures, it's a nice piece.
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Figleaf on February 23, 2016, 10:52:11 AM
Gomes has no mintage, which is not too relevant anyway, since it tells you nothing about how many coins of this type or date survived and how many collectors you can contact (most will be in Portugal) want it. Typical mintage of this time is 10 to 50 thousand. "Value" depends on who you can contact if you want to sell. The market is way too shallow to form a price. Gomes (old edition) lists €20 for VF, €80 for EF. Use at your own risk.

Peter
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 23, 2016, 11:54:03 AM
Thanks Peter. This one stays with me I think. It has some sentimental value - I just wanted to be sure it wasn't massively valuable or I'd sell it and spend the money on an English wreath crown. :D
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Afrasi on February 23, 2016, 01:07:07 PM
... or I'd sell it and spend the money on an English wreath crown. :D

If you ever want to sell it, please, contact me first.  :)
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: bagerap on February 23, 2016, 03:17:39 PM
There is also a very healthy market for this type of coin in South Africa.
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 24, 2016, 12:55:27 AM
If you ever want to sell it, please, contact me first.  :)

Duly noted.
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Afrasi on February 24, 2016, 05:50:57 PM
Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 25, 2016, 12:39:02 PM
I promised some better photos. These show the true colour better. How would you grade this please? I've really no idea where to start with this coin, as it is outside my normal sphere of collecting and quite unfamiliar to me:

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BxBRenK8v0n-d291UUdKdU5zRHc&usp=sharing


Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Afrasi on February 25, 2016, 01:24:45 PM
Uncleaned it looked better to me. Grading is not my hobby. To me it is wasting time and money.

Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 25, 2016, 01:49:15 PM
It hasn't been cleaned Afrasi, it's exactly the same. This picture I took outside with a camera, the first inside with a USB microscope. The link to the bigger pictures shows all the dirt!
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: Figleaf on February 25, 2016, 03:23:28 PM
Sunlight does wonderful things. A USB microscope can't compete, but it enlarges so well. I do think it was cleaned once, probably long ago, by rubbing. Between the legend and the globe it is clean, between and inside the letters and inside the globe it is still somewhat discoloured. IMO that doesn't detract from its appeal.

Grading is a simple (and simplistic) exercise. Look for wear on the highest points. On one side, that's the jewels of the crown, in particular those in the headband (it very often is.) On the other side it's the sides of the diagonal band on the globe. Dots are a bit difficult as they don't wear in an obvious way, but by the way they reflect the light I would guess they are not worn (worn parts are duller) and neither is the diagonal band. It has no original metal colour left. Two small green spots at T and I and some discolouration as noted. I'd give it ef, but if you are into split grades, it would be ef-unc.

Peter
Title: Re: Angola 40 reis 1757
Post by: mrbadexample on February 25, 2016, 04:49:20 PM
Thanks Peter, my difficulty in grading this is that I have no reference to an example as struck, or close, so I cannot judge the amount of wear from new. I'd have given this a VF but I'd be judging by more modern standards, as it were. With the English milled coins I collect, there is always an uncirculated example I can compare mine to. I have seen very few of these (and mine's the best!  ;D )

I think the clean fields are more from handling than a specific clean, but who knows what's happened to it since it was minted. Wouldn't it be fabulous if we could track the journey from when it was minted in Lisbon(?) until the day it arrived in my hands?  :)