World of Coins

Medieval and cash coins => Indian subcontinent: early Islamic Sultanates => Topic started by: THCoins on May 06, 2015, 05:54:59 PM

Title: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on May 06, 2015, 05:54:59 PM
I did not acquire many coins lately, but this was an opportunity i could not let pass by. Normally i don't show any coins here before i have them in my hands. But that may take some weeks. So here just a snapshot of the sellers pics. I will add to this thread when i receive them, because only then i will know for sure if they are what i think they are. They were sold without attribution. If i am correct, one is rare, the other very rare. Possibly, some of the experts here may already recognize them, so let's hear your attributions:
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: EWC on May 07, 2015, 09:37:54 AM
Both equally good finds I would say.  And makes it pretty clear why one would feel they both probly came from the same mint - whether or not that is some obscure ruin in the Salt Range.

Ooops - hope that is not too many clues........
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: THCoins on May 07, 2015, 01:24:31 PM
Figured you should recognize them Rob !
Agree on the characteristic mint style in the design. I may one day make a thread with all the consecutive B&H issues from this mint over time. Would give a nice illustration of the political tumoil in this area at the time.
As for rarity, Goron gives the left as only scarce. But for both it was the first time i saw one for sale within my price range.
(Both are featured in Jitals and G&G. Neither is found on Zeno or other web references)
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: Figleaf on May 07, 2015, 02:07:13 PM
Luvely thread, but will you tell us under-equipped-bookwise dumbos what this is all about?

Peter
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: Md. Shariful Islam on May 07, 2015, 02:44:37 PM
Is this thread dedicated to experts only? Not for me!!!
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: EWC on May 07, 2015, 03:14:08 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nandana

Puzzling that Stan called the Iltutmish coin "scarce" - even when he failed to find a single example to photograph.

His drawing looks oddly familiar somehow  ???

Also thanks to Ton and Peter for comments on the Bengal famine token thing.  One travels in hope.
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: THCoins on May 07, 2015, 03:20:12 PM
Quote
Is this thread dedicated to experts only? Not for me!!!

No this thread is intended for everyone. You even have an advantage over others because you can read Bengali script !
What this thread is all about is that there are various quite easily recognisable classes of Bull and Horseman Jitals. In each class you may encounter both very common and very rare types. Recognizing the class is not so difficult. It is usually based more on the stylistic characteristics than on the text. Recognizing the very rare types from the common types is what takes some practice, and is generally based on the text inscriptions.
Both of the above coins belong to the issues of a single mint. As Rob already stated, Nandana in Sindh. This is mainly reflected in the very similar design of the bull. However in a short time frame the area in which this mint was located was governed by at least 5 different rulers. But the mint just kept issuing the same basic design. Just with a different issue authority. Three issues are common to very common, and can also be found on this board. Two issues are rare to very rare, one just has to recognize them  ;D

I will provide better photo's with explanatory text overlay when i receive them.
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: capnbirdseye on May 07, 2015, 05:30:23 PM
I thought the secret service was disbanded after the war  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: THCoins on May 07, 2015, 07:36:02 PM
Secret  ??? What secret ?
I just gave a preview of two nice coins (with already much more information than provided by the seller).  ;D
Title: Re: Just added two more special Bull and horseman Jitals
Post by: THCoins on May 10, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
I had planned to extend to this thread when i would have received the coins pictured above. Rob already revealed that the left coin is an issue by Delhi ruler Iltutmish, Tye#385, G&G D046. Goron classifies it as just scarce, but it is probably better called rare.

Nobody dared to attribute the right one. This seems to reflect that it is seldom seen, as this is classified by both Tye and Goron as RR. I am still waiting on the one i bought over the internet. But, yesterday i visited a local coin fair. There was a dealer with a fair amount of ancient Indian coins. And there i stumbled upon the coin displayed below, erroneously attributed as an issue of Khwarezmshah Mangubarni.
Under the rule of Mangubarni large amounts of Bull and Horseman Jitals were produced at Nandana mint. But around 1224AD the armies of Mangubarni were forced West. Ultimately the area came under the control of Iltumish. In the short interregnum in between jitals were probably made under the authority of one of Mangubarni's generals who had stayed behind. We only know of this temporary ruler from his rare coinage as "Sharaf Beg" (Tye) or "Khalif Beg" (G&G). This is one of those rare jitals issued under the name of Sharaf Beg. Of the five very similar Nandana B&H issues this is the one least frequently seen (and in a week i probably have two of them  ;D)

Billon 15 mm, 3.2 grams, Tye#322, G&G SS08. (None to be found on Zeno)
 
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: capnbirdseye on May 10, 2015, 03:51:58 PM
Excellent finds, you have become a serious expert on these coins,  8)  I  got a really cheap bag of 60 of these jitals at a coin fair but most are worthless ( hence really cheap  :D)  but doubt there is anything any good but I'm going to be selecting the best ones out of the pile when I get around to it
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on May 10, 2015, 04:03:25 PM
I was allowed to cherry pick. But for the cost of two cups of coffee for this one you do not hear me complaining.
But who knows what you will find in your new pile ? My last also gave some unexpected gems. Will keep my fingers crossed for you !
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: Figleaf on May 10, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
Very interesting! Please do post the thread you had in mind with the consecutive issues of the Nandana mint. It will help us understand the complicated political developments of those times. Here is my little contribution, a map of the location. My understanding is that there is a hindu temple and a ruined fortress there now...

Peter
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on May 10, 2015, 04:19:04 PM
Will do Peter, but just need some spare time.
I already had made a similar map to yours, but a bit wider, to show the relative postions of the important cities.
It is no coincidence that there is an almost straight line from Ghazni, Afghanistan to Delhi, India, passing well known mint places like Kurraman, Nandana and Lahore.
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: bububoy on May 10, 2015, 05:28:26 PM
this post really got me excited, in the recently concluded TICC, i have purchased a small lot of these types of bull and horseman coins( i frankly have no idea), just bought them because i happen to find the animals on those coins interesting, will keep a watch on this thread for the happenings; keep it coming !
thanks.
mahe
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on October 23, 2015, 06:27:35 PM
Adding another interesting coin to this thread. Above already were two pictures of the Nandana mint Bull and Horseman Jitals issued under the name of "Shalipha Baga".
Just encountered another specimen which shows similarities, but also differences, with the previous ones.
The coin is 14 mm, 3.6 grams and of fairly good workmanship in a low silver/high copper billon. The style of the bull and horseman  is "post-Muhammad bin Sam", but not the typical Nandana style.
The text above the horseman appears to be the common "Sri Hamira". Here, the "Ha"of "HaMiRa"is not the typical style of the Nandana type, but more similar to the Delhli style of writing.
The text around the bull is where the bonus is. The left part seems to read "Sri Shalipha" as on the Sharaf Beg coins. However, the next word, commencing above the bump of the bull is definitely not "Baga". The first character is likely to be read as "Na" or "Ta". So, this is a, previously unpublished as far as i know, bull and horseman in the name of some other caliph. Alternatively, this is an interesting legend copying error.
The first candidates would be the reigning Abassid caliphs. At the time of the downfall of Mangubarni this was Al-Nasir. That would fit with the first character, but not with the visible part of the second. Al-Nasir was succeeded by his son Zahir. This does not fit with the proposed "Na" or "Ta" beginning. However, Sanskrit does not have a character for "Za". A way out might be to spell this as "Tahir" which would fit, but is a long shot.

In conclusion; this is a nice bull and horseman jital which seems to be a variant of the rare Sharaf Beg type, in the name of some other Khalif. Whether this is an inscription blunder on a local copy, or a ligitimate yet unknown issue, is yet to be decided.
Now i just have to wait for a specimen with the entire name on the flan  :-\
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: Rajagopal on September 10, 2016, 08:23:53 AM
Need confirmation...Is this also a coin of Sharaf Beg? if not, i will remove it from this thread..weight is 3 grams...Thanks
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on September 10, 2016, 12:49:15 PM
Very nice catch ! No need to remove, it's a welcome addition to the thread.
This indeed is a Sharaf Beg Jital. The visible part of the legend clearly shows {Li}"Pha Ba"{Ga}. Having also the first part of the final "Ga" on the flan is a nice bonus.
I have seen several of this type recently on offer. Likely a hoard with more of these has been uncovered. I also have one with a similar surface aspect as yours. And i am quite certain it has been chemically treated or even resilvered to get this combination of a bit corroded uneven surface and a shiny new silver look. I whish the seller would not have done this. Apart from that, great find !

Anthony
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: Rajagopal on September 11, 2016, 09:29:10 AM
Thanks a lot..actually it was this thread on worldofcoins which helped me to hunt this down...and as you said earlier, at the price of two coffees..
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on September 11, 2016, 11:02:20 AM
And that's the spirit of the Forum. So we may all help eachother a bit !
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: capnbirdseye on September 11, 2016, 11:22:33 AM
Well spotted by Rajagopal!, 
 the chemical treatment of coins is becoming more prevalent unfortunately, this morning I've been trying to darken some tiny bright shiny Ottoman acke coins which came to me mirror bright and my usual treatment with sulphur failed on some of them because they also appear to have some kind of treatment to prevent tarnishing  >:D >:D
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on September 11, 2016, 07:03:19 PM
Don't know for sure if the top layer on these treated coins is silver. Would have to take out my chemistry set to test. For now i just leave it as it is.
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: capnbirdseye on September 12, 2016, 05:36:42 PM
Here is a clip from a Fb group, image courtesy of Pawan K Puri

Looks like a new type with a cross symbol?

Sind Sultan Khalif Beg Jitals ( Obverse is Sh Shalapha Paiga or Bega in Cursive nagri and Reverse is Sri hamirah ) 1st to 4th coin are same 5th is Different & 6 and 7th coin are also different this is a new varieties jital of this ruler
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on September 12, 2016, 07:54:26 PM
The #6 and #7 type are similar to the one i showed in reply#15 in this thread. Look at the character after the "Pha". This clearly is not "Ba". So i agree this is a new uncataloged type.
I do not agree the shown # 1 to 4 are the same. Look at the "Ta" (or "Ti") after "Pha" on #2. Also if you compare the bull on #4 and #2, #4 has a typical "Nandana mint style" nose. Numer 2 has not.
Also it is not entirely new to appear: look at this one on Zeno (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=48465). Although R. Tye suggested this is a Qubacha type, i do not agree. It has the same + signs on the bull, and a clear "Ti" after "Pha".
 
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: capnbirdseye on September 12, 2016, 08:51:59 PM
I'll see what replies the FB post gets, I've enlarged the photo a bit as well
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on September 13, 2016, 10:29:18 AM
I have been trying to make sense ot the legend a bit this morning. "Sri Khaliphati" seems unlikely to be a reference to the caliph of Bagdad.
According to the dictionaries, it may be used as "Successor"/"Representative"/"vice-regent". And there are some historic figures around this time and place who used this title (Malik Qabul Khaliphati for example). Possibly this new type is either a later version, or an alternate mint version, of the coins referring to Ozbeg Bei, the governor of Nandana in the service of Mangubarni. I would love to see one with the entire end of the name on flan.
Looking for other contemporary candidates for the "Khaliphati Baga", Qutb al-din Aibak (or ai-Beg) comes to mind. But i do not find any evidence he held Nandana.
Alternatively, "Khaliphati Baga" could also be a generic title like "Spalapati Deva". As "Beg" is the turkic title for "Lord", the inscription could just be interpreted as issued in the name of "the lord vice-regent".
 
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: Rajagopal on December 19, 2017, 05:34:50 PM
Finally, got an 'iltitimi ' coin. G/G D 46..3.52 grams. But there is slight difference compared to the drawing given in G/G ..On my coin the 'i' of 'mi' in 'iltitimi is placed to the right of 'ma' character while in G/G it is on the left of 'ma' character..Any significance?..thanks
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on December 19, 2017, 09:18:47 PM
Good observation ! I myself have only seen the type you show. I never encountered one with i-matra of "Mi" to the left even though also the Tye ctalog draws it in this manner.
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on May 19, 2018, 07:50:37 PM
And my coin of Khalif Beg. This one is not a perfect piece, but thanks to WoC, I could make an attribution.

Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on May 20, 2018, 11:22:53 AM
I believe the last coin is a quite typical specimen for the quality with which these were minted.
I gradually becomes clearer that these coins are not as rare as once thought. People just did not recognize them. It's a great thing that the sharing of information on WoC can benefit collectors like this !
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on May 20, 2018, 02:39:05 PM
Fully agreed. Thanks to WoC.  :applause:
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on October 09, 2019, 08:21:23 PM
Instead of opening a new thread i decided to pile on this old thread.
Previously in this thread the Jitals issued under the name of "Shalipha Baga" were discussed. It became clear that there is a second, likely related, type in a different style, with a legend reading "Sri Shaliphati Baga".

Below is a picture of a new third type, another unpublished variant of the “Shalipha Baga” type. Even more than the previous, more resembling the Dehli style than the Nandana style of coinage. The text around the bull reads “Sri ShaLiPhaTi BaGa..” But after the “Baga” there clearly is another character which I have not reliably determined yet.

The fact that i have now assembled three different subtypes of the "Sri Shalipha Baga" coinage increases my doubt that this type should be attributed to Mangubarni's general "Sharif Beg" when he held the Saltrange region for a short period.
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on October 13, 2019, 11:13:32 AM
Tye’s Jitals includes one entry of a coin in Nandana style which names a “Sri Shalipha Baga” in Nagari above the bull.
Current attribution is as follows:
When Khwarezmshah Mangubarni travelled West in 1224AD he left two of his generals in charge of the region. The area West of the Indus (with Kurraman and Peshawar) was controlled by governor Wafa Malik. He would later extend his territory and claim independence as Saif-al-din al-Hasan Qarlugh. The governor of the area East of the Indus, including Nandana, is known from his scarce coinage as "Sharaf Beg" or "Khalif Beg". Recent literature suggests that this Sharaf Beg could have been Özbeg Bei bin Muhammad Jahan Pahlawan. This was a ruler from Azerbaijan, with Tabriz as capital (now in Iran). This area was overrun by both the forces of Mangubarni and the Mongol army. In the process, Özbeg became a Khwarezmshah vassal and was forced to leave Tabriz. Around 1229AD he lost control of Nandana and followed Mangubarni west.

This thread brings forward a problem with this explanation. Tye’s Jitals just knew one “Shalipha Baga” type in the Nandana style. It seemed logical that this ruler continued minting there in the same style as his predecessor Mangubarni. This thread now shows three different “Shalipha(ti) Baga” types in different styles. This is less wel explained by the rule of “Özbeg Bey” in a limited time period and region.
Another fact to notice is that there are different types of coins, from roughly the same region in name of  "Sri Shaliphati" (Tye#352), see the coin below. These are usually linked to the rule of the Qarlughids with a legend in a later style of the Sharada script, and naming Ghazna in Arab as mint.

Alternatively, The “Shalipha Baga” might refer to a different person. One possibility is that the Caliph of Baghdad was meant. This is supported by the specimen that seems to read “Sri ShaLiPhaTi BaGaDha”, where “Bagadha” may refer to Baghdad. Etymologicaly the name Baghdad probably is derived from Old Iranian “Baga Data”, meaning “God-given”.

But “Shalipha Baga” may also be a generic title referring to a function, like "Samanta Deva". “Samanta” means subordinate ruler, “Deva” means Lord. After the recognition by caliph al-Mustansir, Iltutmish had also acquired the title “Khalipha-yi amir al-Mu’minin”, “deputy of the Commander of the Faithfull”. “Baga” in Old Iranian means “the one who shares” or “Lord”. "Beg" is the Turkic title for "Lord". So “Shalipha Baga” could also be interpreted as a direct Arab translation of  “Samanta Deva” as "the lord vice-regent".
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: drnsreedhar on October 13, 2019, 07:17:39 PM
You have a very strong point there with meanings of "samanta deva" and "shalifa baga" coinciding. I would suggest "khalifa" for "shalifa" because if "kha" in devanagari is written with the middle line separately drawn inside, it will look like "sha". In this image http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=42653.0;attach=82516;image , one can read it more as "kha" than "sha". So the reading has everything to be "khalifa baga". I am posting three overlays where it is like "kha". And in Sarada script, Devanagari "kha" must have had a little cursive style. Thanks
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: THCoins on October 13, 2019, 07:44:36 PM
Thanks for bringing this up ! I avoided the kha/sha question a bit because i had not yet decided what i thought most likely. Problem is that the script of the period in this region had elements of both nagari and sharada and was rapidly evolving. I have seen script charts which did not allow a certain distinction. I value your opinion that the kha in this case is probably the more likely one !
Title: Re: Just added two Bull and horseman Jitals: Iltutmish & Sharaf Beg, Nandana mint
Post by: Figleaf on October 14, 2019, 10:31:40 AM
  :like::applause: :bow: