World of Coins

Medieval and cash coins => Islamic world => Topic started by: Quant.Geek on April 23, 2015, 03:30:25 PM

Title: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Quant.Geek on April 23, 2015, 03:30:25 PM
Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)

Obv: In double circle, ﻻ ﺍﻟﻪ ﺍﻻ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ (There is no God but Allah, Muhammad is the apostle of Allah) followed by ﻋﻠﻰ ﻭﻟﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ (Ali is the vicegerent of God), with ﺑﺴﻢ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺍﻟﻜﺮﻳﻢ (In the name of God, the Holy) around; in the margin, the Twelve Imams, normally as follows, ﺍﻟﻠﻬﻢ ﺻﻠﻰ ﻋﻠﻰ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ﻭﻋﻠﻰ ﻭ ﺍﻟﺤﺴﻦ ﻭﺍﻟﺤﺴﻴﻦ ﻭﻋﻠﻰ ﻭ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ﻭ ﺟﻌﻔﺮ ﻭ ﻣﻮﺳﻰ ﻭﻋﻠﻰ ﻭ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ﻭﻋﻠﻰ ﻭ ﻟﺤﺴﻦ ﻭ ﻣﺤﻤﺪ ()
Rev: Within a quatrelobe, ضرب في أيام دولة السلطان الأعظم مالك رقاب الأمم الجايتو سلطان غياث الدنيا والدين خدا بنده محمد خلد الله ملكه (); around, four segments; in upper left segment, لله الامر من قبل ومن بعد (God is before and after); in upper right, in Uighur, ᠦᠯᠵᠡᠢᠲᠦ ᠰᠤᠯᠲᠠᠨ (Uljaytu Sultan); in lower right and lower left segments, the mint and date, ﺿﺮﺏ أمل ﺳﻨﺔ ﻋﺸﺮ ﻭﺳﺒﻌﻤﺎﺋﺔ (Struck in Amul in the year ten and seven hundred)

A high-resolution image of this coin is available at FORVM Ancient Coins (http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-120184)

(http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/albums/userpics/36484/Album-2184B.jpg)
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on April 23, 2015, 06:00:31 PM
When i saw this one i thought first: Ahh you've got great taste. And second: didn't i show one of these here some time ago ?  ;D
But apparently i did not. So here is mine to keep yours company. The major difference is that it is from Tabriz mint.
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: capnbirdseye on April 23, 2015, 06:38:13 PM
Not to be outdone I've found a similar one in my trays  ;D  very tarnished but dated AH 710 & apparently it's Sultaniya mint
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Figleaf on April 23, 2015, 11:51:15 PM
Amazingly, in the inner circle at twelve o'clock, we now have coins with a large carpet beater, no carpet beater and small carpet beater in this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on April 24, 2015, 10:10:44 AM
Great to see tree different specimen together in this thread from different mints. Perhaps the carpet beater might be interpreted as a mint mark for thos who could not read ?
What i find most impressing is the uniformity of these coins, made at different mints. Think this reflects a high level of government organisation.
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: capnbirdseye on April 24, 2015, 10:34:25 AM
When I posted mine on zeno 18 months ago it was pointed out that Interestingly the coin was issued 3 years before  coins dedicated to the new Capital Sultaniya appeared (Album A2186, 2190A, 2190B).
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Figleaf on April 24, 2015, 12:39:21 PM
Perhaps the carpet beater might be interpreted as a mint mark for those who could not read ?

Agreed. Some kind of control mark. It can easily be contracted or expanded to create a large number of varieties. So how to explain its absence on your Tabriz coin? Less likely: Tabriz was thought of as a primus inter pares mint, so the absence of the mark denoted Tabriz (parallel: in the US, no mintmark used to denote the Philadelphia mint). More likely: your coin is an earlier version, when the mark was not yet introduced. Alternative: the Tabriz mint was so independent from the central power that it could ignore them if it wished (looks like a dangerous game to me, not worth the issue.)

Peter
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on April 24, 2015, 01:16:32 PM
Quote
the coin was issued 3 years before  coins dedicated to the new Capital Sultaniya appeared
I guess Sultaniya already was called Sultaniya before it became the capital ? Otherwise this would be very weird.
From memory, mine is dated AH711, so not earlier, but one year later.
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Manzikert on April 24, 2015, 01:18:40 PM
I think it is just an ornament: four of these appear regularly on the reverses of all Abu Said's type H coinage for instance. On TH's coin there just isn't room for it above the 'illah', which is quite compressed vertically.

Alan
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on April 24, 2015, 03:35:45 PM
i believe you are right, as in  the meanwile i also encountered a Tabriz specimen with the ornament.
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Pellinore on August 25, 2019, 10:44:04 PM
Here's my Uljaytu 2 dirhams, it's from Tabriz. Without carpet beater.

AR 2 dirham Ilkhanids, Uljaytu (703-716). Tabriz, AH 710 = 1310/1. 22-23 mm, 4.28 gr. Album 2184.

-- Paul

Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Pellinore on August 25, 2019, 10:55:57 PM
By the way, this coin of Uljaytu's son Abu Sa'id (1316-1335) has four carpet beaters to show.
AR 2 dirham Ilkhanids, Abu Sa’id (1316-1335). Kashan, Khani 33 = 1334. 18-19.5 mm, 2.88 gr. Album 2218-1, type H.

-- Paul

Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: Figleaf on August 26, 2019, 12:17:10 PM
Indeed, it must be more than an ornament. If it had no significance, it would have been easy to use other place holders or to use simpler versions if place was lacking. Compare a simplified knot on may coppers of Akbar.

BTW great thread!

Peter
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on August 26, 2019, 07:31:27 PM
The "Endless Knot" is one of the symbols of buddhism. This symbol was either already known in ancient Mongolia or the Mongols picked it up during the expansion of their power from Tibetan buddhism. In current Mongolia this (Ulzii Khee) still is a symbol of eternity, good luck and prosperity.
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: saro on August 29, 2019, 02:30:44 PM
The "Endless Knot" is one of the symbols of buddhism. This symbol was either already known in ancient Mongolia or the Mongols picked it up during the expansion of their power from Tibetan buddhism. In current Mongolia this (Ulzii Khee) still is a symbol of eternity, good luck and prosperity.
After mongols, ottomans and safavids have used this symbol and "islamized" it, it seems; one can see with interest the aws22 reply in  this thread (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,36757.0.html)
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: aws22 on August 29, 2019, 06:24:00 PM
Yes Saro, in that thread it was the word "Muhammad محمد " written in some form of ornamental calligraphy.

Maythem
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: altaycoins on September 24, 2019, 09:41:41 PM
Great to see tree different specimen together in this thread from different mints. Perhaps the carpet beater might be interpreted as a mint mark for thos who could not read ?

It took some time for me to understand what the carpet beater is and why we are talking about that :) Thanks to THCoins, I understood. It is also called as Knot of Happiness (Saadet Düğümü) and also the Beyliks (Principalities of Anatolia) used this figure heavily..

They are not mint marks but in some cases these can be associated with the master engraver of the mint. There are examples in the early years of Ilkhans where we can track the location of a mint master with his star and later with a daisy-like ornament. But in the later stages, in this case Uljaytu, it is mostly related to the taste of the engraver I suppose.

Since we are talking about this type in particular, I cannot let it pass without my dolphin :)

2 Dirham, Saweh 709AH.
(https://i.imgur.com/b1QfOzP.jpg?2)

And in some cases mint name is located there instead of an ornament.

2 Dirham, Firuzan 710AH.
(https://i.imgur.com/MjyneHZ.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: altaycoins on September 24, 2019, 09:50:27 PM
I guess Sultaniya already was called Sultaniya before it became the capital ? Otherwise this would be very weird.
From memory, mine is dated AH711, so not earlier, but one year later.

Yes it was called as Sultaniya before it became a capital. But already it is a city built by the order of Uljaytu in 709 to have a new capital. As a word Sultaniya means "belonging to the Sultan".
Title: Re: Ilkhan:Uljaytu (1304-1316) AR 2 dirhams, AH710, Amul Mint (Album-2184B)
Post by: THCoins on September 25, 2019, 03:29:06 PM
Nice specimen and additions to the thread Yigit ! I do not know who started the term "carpetbeater" but it seems to have caught on in the numismatic lingo here. Also shows that the jargon is alive !
I love your fishy coin !  I can not add another Ilkhan animal logo, but the one below i bought largely for the fish.