World of Coins

Other tokens and medals => Counters, toy and play money => Topic started by: mooreman on January 05, 2015, 08:38:05 AM

Title: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 05, 2015, 08:38:05 AM
I think it is time after a couple of years to breath a bit more life into this area of collecting again. The metals used seem to suggest that what ever was to hand in metal blanks stock, ie copper, brass, and of cause tin and brass for the coin boxes was used. Over the years I have had in my collection most of J. Moores work in so called toy coins and boxes.  The variations in metal used and dies used are  probable best illustrated by the model crown, copper brass, bronze, silver, and various plating's are evident. Dies are also legion
I know of a collector who collects the Windsor Castle Boxes, who has commentated that no two that he has are from the same die.
Tony Barters books on each of the model coin types, explains many variations and must be applauded for the hard work involved.
His books are on the net some ware, he gave me his first penny ones but I have been unable to find the rest to buy, which is only right considering the work that he put into that project. The dies for the more common  coins and boxes may well have been part of the training of apprentices, which would explain the variations. It would be interesting to know if the button making was the main stay of the business or did medals, toy coins, and coin boxes take over, remembering that J.Moore was known for his medal making.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on January 05, 2015, 10:46:52 AM
Were you thinking of this book (http://www.blurb.co.uk/b/2204095-bimetallic-model-penny-and-halfpenny-by-anthony-ke)?

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 05, 2015, 12:34:42 PM
Volume 3 is here too (http://www.blurb.co.uk/b/2299253-model-fractions-including-half-farthing-1848-quart).
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 05, 2015, 04:55:20 PM
Thank you for pointing me in the right direction, I have vol 1,2,3, penny. I thought that he was going to do model crowns, still haven't been able to talk to him on the phone as it always seems engaged.  I see some one has found another G.Dee crown, that makes four, two more hiding some ware. Have you come across the Crystal Palace Medal Box, four medaletts, one side same as hope box other side view of Crystal Palace. The box made of brass with Prince Albert one side crystal palace on the other.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 05, 2015, 05:46:23 PM
Found photos of he Crystal Palace Box.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 05, 2015, 09:02:44 PM
I haven't seen the Crystal Palace Medal Box or its medalets. I do have a few boxes which I shall look out later today. [7am here]

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 10:46:57 AM
I know of a collector who collects the Windsor Castle Boxes, who has commentated that no two that he has are from the same die.

I have three Windsor Castle Boxes all different with one exceptionally different. All approx. 23.5mm.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
The Windsor Castle Box approx. 23.5mm, and the contents small medalets:

Two silvered brass 10.5mm:

VICTORIA REG: rev. BORN MAY 24 1819 CROWNED JUNE 28 1838

PRINCE ALBERT rev. BORN AUG 26 1819 MARRIED FEB 10 1838

[the children follow]


Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:05:22 AM
The Royal children of Victoria:

8.5mm MEDALETS:

PRINCESS ROYAL rev. BORN NOV 21 1840
PRINCE OF WALES rev. ALBERT PRINCE OF WALES BORN NOV 9 1841
PRINCESS ALICE rev. PRINCESS ALICE BORN APRIL 25 1843
PRINCE ALFRED rev. PRINCE ALFRED BORN AUG 6 1844
PRINCESS HELENA rev. PRINCESS HELENA BORN MAY 25 1846
PRINCESS LOUISA rev. PRINCESS LOUISA BORN MARCH 18 1848

another for Prince Arthur exists but is rare.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:11:47 AM
Prince of Wales crest [feathers] / THE PRINCE OF WALES BOX approx. 17mm
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:13:13 AM
PRINCE ALBERT'S SNUFF BOX. approx. 13.8mm
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:14:01 AM
QUEEN VICTORIA approx. 14mm
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:17:15 AM
Box for Moore's California models. c 1850. approx. 24mm

EMIGRATION TO CALIFORNIA / CALIFORNIA
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:31:58 AM
THE QUEEN PRINCE ALBERT AND BRITAIN'S HOPE approx. 28mm

Contains three white metal medalets 26.8mm:

H.M.G.M. QUEEN VICTORIA / EUROPE'S GLORY

H.R.H. PRINCE ALBERT /  ENGLAND'S PRIDE

BRITAIN'S HOPE / "THE WOODEN WALLS OF OLD ENGLAND"

Stolen and retrieved two years later; originally it had clear thin celluloid roundels between each piece to avoid rubbing, these were missing when returned.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on January 10, 2015, 11:52:02 AM
Good grief, Mal, what an amazing collection. That locomotive crowns it all. Love it!

What is the diameter of the snuff box?

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 11:58:09 AM
The diameter of the snuff box is 13.8mm.

I shall go through and edit to add sizes; it was quite a task to do all these.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 10, 2015, 12:23:23 PM
Another, this disappeared from my scans.

WILLM COLE LIVERPOOL ST 23.5mm.

The reverse of this box is a little different from that used for the Windsor Castle box.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 11, 2015, 05:25:02 AM
 hello malji, I haven't been able to get on to post for some reason, The William Cole box is a rare one, only ever seen one other in over 20 years, and that is in my collection, still I`m sure that others are out there. Thank you for putting them on. If you have the boxes made as  coins, R4091 and R4092 are the same box.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 11, 2015, 05:57:37 AM
Yes I just had a look and its as you say; obviously the base would be of a smaller measurement than the complete box.

I have a base only for the Princes of Wales box as well as the complete box. Always hoping to find a lid to suit!

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 11, 2015, 06:08:18 AM
See Rogers section B 10 matchbox type boxes for Lauer's toy coins.

I have a very similar one, the lid is impressed  with “The British Automatic Company Limited - Appold Street London E.C." Iron, 47mm X 32mm X 13.5mm. See my B.A.C. page here. (https://sites.google.com/site/malsprojects/home/bac)

(https://sites.google.com/site/malsprojects/_/rsrc/1380094466804/home/bac/r-01.jpg?height=135&width=200)

This is from the same maker;
A small tin plate “Jahncke's Patent” match safe, Ernest Jahncke, a tin box manufactures of Canonbury Works, Dorset Street, Islington. Founded in 1873 by Ernest Jahncke and incorporated in 1893. This type of tin box was patented 15 May 1880 and produced until 1925.

Bryant and May acquired an interest in 1895 with the Jahncke boxes being used for their wax vestas. Jahncke Ltd was liquidated in 1963.

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 11, 2015, 06:44:32 AM
I haven't seen that one before, nice, I`ve got most of the rest R4200-R4235,55. and R4270, R4400,  No German boxes, all past on.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 11, 2015, 07:02:37 AM
R4120 Prince of Wales or R4121 Prince of Wales`s, I `ll have a look later,  there is also a variation in size with these.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 11, 2015, 08:06:08 AM
As R4120 Prince of Wales box exactly as the one posted in Reply #9

Size is identical, just swapped the lid over and it fits the same, perhaps just a little better in fact and so easier to part.

Modifed the two images had them a little mixed.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 12, 2015, 03:04:25 AM
your in luck, I do have a spare top, you can have it for all the hard work that you do on this helpful site. Looking at forty + of boxes and100 + of coins, that I have makes me realise that the time to pass them on is close.   
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 12, 2015, 10:59:47 AM
Thank you!

see the PM
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 18, 2015, 05:52:00 AM
See Reply #13 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30197.msg192583.html#msg192583) another similar box has been for sale on ebay for a while, [just relisted] its a bit expensive.

This set has a fourth medal listing all the children to Prince Arthur who was born 1st May 1850.

The box must be a little deeper as there is certainly no room in my box for a fourth piece.

There is a problem with the last image on ebay.

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 18, 2015, 08:36:25 AM
I have both of these Hope Boxes, the three medal one, and the four medal one R4155 which is deeper, 11mm high and still 28mm wide. Both boxes seem to have the same number, so a, and b, should be applied.
Here is some terrible pics of the Waterloo Box 22mm wide and 5mm deep, the medals are 9mm wide. This is quite rare as boxes go.
Pics coming as soon as I can get them compressed.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 18, 2015, 11:18:40 AM
 Waterloo Box
R280, 285, 286, 287, 288, and 289 which came from D Magnay.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 18, 2015, 11:53:16 AM
Just had a look at the relisted one on eBay, as you say a bit to much considering the loss of plating and it looks as though it is four box one. I would have had a go at it last time it was on, as I have a very nice full plated set of four, that I have been keeping, that needs a box.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 18, 2015, 12:12:46 PM
He has reduced the price with the relisting.

I have just scanned the article by John King from the Seaby bulletin of Nov. 1981 as this gives a lot of useful information on the Waterloo boxes.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 18, 2015, 02:03:15 PM
Interesting that he does not mention R280, the Wellington head one, may be it had not come to light at that time. I do have the odd item out of Seabys collection that Magnay bought. I am looking for Egyptian Box, Spanish Box, and a few others to complete the collection, you have got me looking again.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 19, 2015, 12:32:13 AM
The Hope Box on eBay that you have shown is not the one that I was looking at, there is another one that I was talking about. just enter Hope Box under Coins and it should come up.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 19, 2015, 05:24:35 AM
I have just had a look and they both came up. The one you refer to is shown as 28mm X 11.5mm so it is the four medal box yet it seems the PoW medal is missing from that set with only three shown.

I saved the images of the fourth medal listing all the children.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 19, 2015, 07:05:37 AM
There are other medals for the hope box that I have. The Chinese Junk Keying, one with just type instead of the POW. It has been suggested that there is a five and six set box, I have yet to see one. Given the existence of the Keying Junk medal that is identical in all ways to the others already noted for these boxes, ie, weight, size, it would seem probable. The internet has changed so much in the way of greater shared information from a decade or two ago, when Rogers book was created. 
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 19, 2015, 11:03:15 PM
I have not seen the other pieces you mention, have you pictures you can show?

The internet has certainly been a great help in finding new material and information.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 20, 2015, 04:23:58 AM
Extras for the Hope Box
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on January 20, 2015, 07:54:40 AM
SORRY,   got side tracked, the extra one is the junk with the description on the other side.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on January 20, 2015, 10:59:42 AM
Nice I shall have to watch for that.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 09:48:28 AM
Glade the POW Box top arrived ok, I need a base for the G. 1V box, Rogers 4090.  21mm inside or there about, if you come across one please give me a heads up.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 10:18:18 AM
This is a nice rare one, it was made by Jahncke’s for Lauer and is stamped profusely which is always a good sign. Rogers 4200… It contains a Lauer Swiss 1888 set.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 10:22:03 AM
no 2
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 10:23:58 AM
no 3
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 10:25:53 AM
no 4
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 09, 2015, 10:29:11 AM
Top and Bottom
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 09, 2015, 08:37:38 PM
Comparing this box with my BAC box I see mine has copyright written on the inner lip of each end just above the “Jahncke's Patent”.

BTW I have a spare lid for the Hope box but no other parts.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on February 10, 2015, 01:13:53 PM
Most excellent thread on a subject that is a bit esoteric for coin collectors, but revealingly interesting. Glad it leads to such useful exchanges of spare parts. Very rewarding all.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 10, 2015, 02:46:46 PM
 I have got the £5 note box (sailing boat-Jumping horse), that has that on it, patent/geschuetzt,
 Some where I have a write up that I did some years back on Jahncke`s boxes, i.e. Coins, Vesters, and a hundred other uses.

Thanks for the offer on the Hope box, the farthing of the time was the design used, so I have to stick with that.
 Esoteric, it’s a shame but your right, although I do notice that there are few more bidding on auctions, to my cost.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 11, 2015, 08:55:44 AM
This is an interesting one, with a bit of an update on Rogers.
The Joseph Moore Model Penny Box,34mm wide, dated 1854, brass, Rogers 4070.
The date and metal composition vary, 1852 and 1854. Brass and copper.
These early facsimile coin boxes show J Moore’s handy work as a die maker.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 11, 2015, 09:12:26 AM
 J. Moore Model Half Crown Box. Dated 1850,  R4055, brass, 32.5mm X 2.5mm thick, plain edge, again different dates and metals. The foils inside of the Lord’s Prayer and Ten commandments does seem common with the ½ Crown box. it would be interesting to know if this is fact or fiction.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 12, 2015, 07:31:00 AM
I have never seen those so unable to comment.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on February 12, 2015, 10:19:44 AM
Not knowing anything about it never stopped me from blabbering about it. There are a number of different boxes in this thread now. Here is how I see them:
Your last contribution seems to fall into the fourth category.
"Here's a coin"
"It's not a coin; it's a box you can open"
"Look at the contents, aren't they civilised?"
"Amanda, do you think your father will allow you to marry me?"

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 12, 2015, 12:34:26 PM
I was referring to the "The foils inside of the Lord’s Prayer and Ten commandments"

All these boxes are very small, the snuff box is approx. 13.8mm that's about half an inch, smaller than your thumbnail ...so would soon get lost if left on the mantelpiece.

Perhaps I should warn Amanda about you? ... a married man.  ???
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 12, 2015, 02:56:07 PM
Your right, as you know, these sort of boxes were made for public consumption, Model Coins made by Allen @ Moore came in two sizes, small for the boxes, and the larger ones with which he hoped to persuade  Government, Mint, and others, to replace the old currency. With the help of the little boxes being sold for a few pence, Moor`s bimetallic Model Penny became a hit. Unfortunately not big enough to get it picked.
I think Moore`s Bimetallic coins of the 1840s were quite early in bimetallic coin manufacture. Some one will know the answer to that.
 A Penny collector who has a dated 1844 Joseph Moore Model Penny in their collection should be a happy man.
As you can see one of my interests, is Joseph Moore`s work with Allen@ Moore.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on February 12, 2015, 04:59:24 PM
I am familiar with the model pennies. I think they should be seen in the context of the 1816 coin reforms in Britain. Before 1816, all coins were supposed to be weight their worth in metal. That was a fiction, but there was usually enough trust in the coins to make the fiction work. After 1816, only two coins, one gold, one silver were "full weight". The rest were fiduciary coins that could in theory be exchanged against full weight coins. It was OK to melt and mint (for a fee) standard coins.

My guess is that the British population in those broadly fell into three categories. A very large majority couldn't care less because they were too busy too survive. A small group of bankers, financiers and the like understood and approved. A small, but vocal minority wanted to set the clock back. How do I know? Because the Bank of England failed to re-introduce standard gold coins. People preferred to use banknotes. The first group would have gone for convenience, the third for tradition, but the first group won handily.

I think Moore appealed to the third group of vocal conservatives. He basically showed that you could issue a silver penny of full weight if you would put it in a flat, copper ring. He was right, but irrelevant. The majority of people didn't care if the penny had a silver plug or not. The technocrats (the second group) knew the whole discussion had become irrelevant. That left him with the conservatives, whose influence is greatly over-estimated (see the gold anecdote above), because "downstairs" was able and willing to blow off steam in public more often (see the letters to the editor in the Times of London) than "upstairs".

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 17, 2015, 03:38:10 PM
Interesting social observation, I think that you could also factor in the effect of the Crimean War and other military and national events bolstered the general patriotism affecting the population. Most families of the time could have had a relative or an acquaintance who was involved in the war one way or another. Parades of retuning troops and veterans, marching through the streets attracted large crowds. No TV in those days, if you wanted to see what was happening, you had to be there. The street sellers of small patriotic items such as J Moore’s Model Boxes and coins probably did quite well. Unfortunately, because of their small size many have over the 150 odd years disappeared to an unknown fate. (Same can be said of Onions Teaching Coins)
J Moore’s full size Model Coins were made to a reasonable standard, there were also gold, silver and
other high grade metals used for collectors who wanted something better. Most found to date,
 are in the region of just half a dozen produced, the rare misspelt Penney was possibly a mistake,
so hard to say, but probably 8-10.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on February 17, 2015, 04:19:55 PM
I think you are right, but the reasons were slightly different. At the time of the Napoleonic wars, the home front was not too preoccupied with war. That changed quite suddenly after the battle of Waterloo. Everyone with a spare room or space in the attic needed a model of the battle, populated with tin soldiers.

The reason is not so much the casualties or the parades, but the changed role of Britain. In the European framework, the country had always been second rank at best, neither as massive as Russia or Germany, nor as rich as Spain or France. Waterloo made it into a world class power. Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands had become allies and France was quickly forgiven and could participate in the Vienna Congress. That alliance would eventually fall apart, but Britain remained at the top of the food chain, while greatly expanding its colonial empire.

In that sense, I think the boxes were not just souvenirs, but also reminders of national pride, in a time when lands stopped being personal fiefs of a family of rulers, not necessarily connected by language, culture and history, becoming a nation-state, a political units of an "us versus them" character. I would have called it nationalist, rather than patriotic.

BTW, I now need to know about "onions teaching coins". Please enlighten me.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 17, 2015, 08:45:13 PM
You need to ask Malcom about Onions Teaching Coins.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 17, 2015, 11:16:44 PM
They can be seen here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,11212.msg77133.html#msg77133)

imageshack closed down all the free accounts unless you were prepared to take out a subscription! so several of my images are missing I have replaced some let me know if anything else is missing.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on February 17, 2015, 11:58:39 PM
Such Good Onions!

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 18, 2015, 12:06:41 AM
Of course I can now copy the image to here

(http://web.archive.org/web/20170203210934/https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8729582/screenshots/screen150218-085735.jpg)

A set of teaching toy coins by S G Onions, thought to have been made made about 1843 before the issue of a threepence in 1845 and the florin in 1848.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 19, 2015, 10:17:09 PM
Nice set,  they all look like the reeded edge, is that right. Do  you have the little bag that they supposedly came in, inside a little box. Saw the box years ago, out bid.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on February 20, 2015, 10:34:18 AM
No put the set together over a few years.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on February 20, 2015, 03:28:27 PM
I didn't know those Onions were that dangerous.
Get well soon. Jason
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 10, 2015, 01:41:31 PM
Quote
Glad the POW Box top arrived ok, I need a base for the G. 1V box, Rogers 4090.  21mm inside or there about,.....

This box lid arrived today in a job lot, very scruffy but extremely rare!  :o ...very similar to 4091 but reads GULIELMUS IIII DEI GRATIA with the unmistakeable bust of William IV   ::)

copper foil, 23mm. So I too need a base now.  8)
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on April 11, 2015, 04:08:42 AM
This is a copper foil box which I'll try to dig out over the weekend. Farthing size or slightly larger IIRC.

(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1002015/1428717951_1040632064_3074cvert.jpg) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=69198)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 11, 2015, 12:28:21 PM
This is nice especially for a RRR specimen. Rogers # 4090 is said to read Georgivs but I see that one is Georgius - maybe a typo of course.   ::)

RRR = only one seen.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on April 12, 2015, 02:19:03 AM
Surprisingly enough, this was in the correct file drawer. Doesn't happen very often since I moved offices.

22 mm. It came in a job lot and, for quite a long time I didn't even realise that it was a box.

(http://www.snapagogo.com/uploads/source/1012015/1428797906_1965143945_3074.f.JPG) (http://www.snapagogo.com/photo.php?id=69242)Uploaded at Snapagogo.com (http://"http://www.snapagogo.com")
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 12, 2015, 09:20:15 AM
You were lucky.   8)  I should image the same box bottom with the Britannia should fit my William IV too.

Here is your image reduced to 25%...
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on April 13, 2015, 03:23:18 AM
Malcolm, where does this fit? Is it best described as Toy money?

I collect imitations, models and toy money but this is a bit of an outlier.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 13, 2015, 06:46:55 AM
These boxes all contained various model coins originally, probably at one time this one would have contained those of George IV which are very rare, I think I only have one George IV model coin.

They are listed at the back of Rogers book Toy Coins.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: DavidP on May 19, 2015, 07:16:46 PM
I was fascinated when I read about your reference to the G.Dee Model Crowns .... and particularly as I have recently managed to acquire an example of this coin !  From what I have read on World of Coins, I believe there are 4 known examples, leaving another 2 which are yet to be found ?  Is my understanding correct then, that only 6 pieces were struck ?  So, I suppose the example I have then might be number 5 ?
I seriously need to find a copy of A.K. Barter's book 'Model Crowns volume 2' from somewhere in the hope that this work will help me in my quest to understand more about this series of coins and in particular this fellow G.Dee, who until recently I had never heard of, to be honest. The other Model Crowns I have in my collection are all 'published by H. Hyams' and I was genuinely surprised to find that another 'publisher' existed in the shape of Mr. Gee !
Any information or help from World of Coins members would be much appreciated in this little quest of mine.
I will try and post a couple of pics on here, when I have managed to figure out how to do this !
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: constanius on May 19, 2015, 11:22:19 PM
 On page 141 there is listed a George Dee, stamper and piercer; court, 2, Ludgate hill in "History, gazetteer, and directory, of Warwickshire
 By White Francis and co 1850"   https://books.google.ca/books?id=Wb4HAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=George+Dee+die+sinker&source=bl&ots=QuRDDk-o3B&sig=8QrCMgTEvd0vqL-317o8N0oqtO4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=faNbVc-DEJGyyATqs4P4CQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false   (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Wb4HAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=George+Dee+die+sinker&source=bl&ots=QuRDDk-o3B&sig=8QrCMgTEvd0vqL-317o8N0oqtO4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=faNbVc-DEJGyyATqs4P4CQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false)

Die-sinker, stamper & piercer were allied trades, as an example see this license where Jenkins licenses Hillard & Thomason to manufacture jewelery to his design and he might have published them under his own name.

Licence from Henry Jenkins of Birmingham die-sinker, stamper and piercer, to John Hilliard and John Thomason of Birmingham, silversmiths and copartners, to manufacture bracelets, brooches and other articles of jewellery, according to a letters patent for an invention of improvements in the manufacture of bracelets, brooches and other articles of jewellery.

The name, George Dee, date & occupation make him a possible/likely candidate for being the publisher of the Model Crown

Pat

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: DavidP on May 20, 2015, 12:35:27 PM
Many thanks for the info, Pat.
Yes, it does look likely that George is the man. I wonder why this fellow was introduced, after the previous and more commonly found name of Harry Hyams, on the other crowns ? Perhaps the licence was time limited or switched for other reasons, maybe.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on May 20, 2015, 12:55:49 PM
Rogers didn't have an example when he compiled the book Toy Coins so it only gets the very briefest of mentions:

207. as 205 except signed PUB: BY G. DEE in place of H Hyams. RRR*

I attempted to search the on-line collection in the Fitzwilliam Museum: From the estate of Dr David J. de Sola Rogers (1946-99) but the pages are so slow loading that I had to give up.

...it may be there.  ::)

Results (http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/opac/search/cataloguesummary.html?_searchstring_=%28collection=%27Rogers%20Toy%20Coin%20Collection%27%29&_limit_=50&_function_=xslt&_resultstylesheet_=imagecs) 1-50 of 1269
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: DavidP on May 20, 2015, 02:53:29 PM
Thank you, Malcolm.

I managed, eventually (Wow, it's slow !) to find the Model Crowns listed in the Fitzwilliam Museum and they have seven varieties listed ... CM.2968-2003 to CM.2974-2003 starting on page 550. All the varieties are listed with the 'issuer' as H.Hyams, including the '18 48' (instead of H.Hyams) variety and the 'blank' (instead of H.Hyams) variety, which are both attributed to H.Hyams as being 'inferred'.  However, unfortunately, they do not have the G.Dee variety listed.

I wonder what is listed in A.K.Barter's book, 'Model Crowns volume 2' ? .... I would love to see a copy of his book on the subject.

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: mooreman on September 15, 2015, 10:41:26 AM
The D Gee Model Crown from what I remember was possibly produced for some reason to do with the great exhibition.
When the book was being put together there were problems getting permission to photograph the known at that time D Gee Model Crown. The book of course needs updating as some mistakes were made at the time and more information has come to light over the years.
I can’t remember the exact details, but this came from a friend of mine, David Magnay who`s input and help in producing Rogers book can be seen in the books credits. In regard to it being number 5 off the known ones, I would guess that where you bought, and how much you paid for it, and who was the previous lucky owner, would give you a fair idea.
I do have the D Gee Model Crown in my large collection of Joseph Moore’s Model coins, together with about 40 Model Crowns, of different metals, ( silver, copper, brass, etc.) and designs, including an exceptionally rare mule.
Another area I love and covered in Rogers’s book are the Onions Teaching coins, so small that many got lost, including no doubt in children’s stomachs. There are little boxes and coin purses to hold these that are not shown in Rogers which have been since found. The metal use to make these cannot all ways be assessed as coatings of various metals was used. Out of the 90 odd that I have it would lead me to think that when completing an order, Onions may have used whatever came to hand from metal in the stock, only in later years when the coating became worn it is revealed. Mal has a good collecting of these and has I think photos some ware on this site.
 Although I still add to my collections, time and tide has caught up with me and the decision to pass the collection on will have to be soon made, as I have as yet not found a way to take them with me.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 26, 2015, 10:12:17 AM
I have a Hope box containing three white metal medals (missing the 'six children' one). Found this interesting World of Coins thread on the internet when I sought for the text on the lid with Google.

But I also found this article about what it in fact is for. Maybe you all know it and it's just a walkover, but still. It's a whist box (http://edmondhoyle.blogspot.nl/2012/05/hoyles-scoring-method-and-whist.html), used for counting up to ten points in special figures.
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 26, 2015, 10:37:24 AM
I found it in this cigarette box, that was in a cotton bag, that was in a book box, that had been sitting in a drawer, that is in an old chest, that is in the back room, that is in our attic, at the very top of our large old house, a place that I seldom visit. It's from my dear old aunt (1911-2010), who had been living as a nurse in Slough for thirty years.
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on October 26, 2015, 08:56:19 PM
Centre possibly two modern Dutch commercial action tokens (Patria crackers?) Around, starting from top left a British advertising medal, a spade guinea imitation for keeping score in games such as whist, an Utrecht duit, type of 1657-1690, a Bank of England 3 shilling bank token 1811 (Davis 45-49), a Canadian token halfpenny Wellington/commerce (Breton 978) and a British commemorative medal.

Did your aunt travel with Graham Greene? :)

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 26, 2015, 09:23:41 PM
All your guesses are right to the mark. Patria crackers of 2 1/2 cent 'zakgeld', pocket money. The duit has been countermarked with the Utrecht armorial shield, can't read the date. The spade guinea imitation is in the name of James White Baker. The bank token is AE, is that a counterfeit? Date unreadable.

My aunt traveled a lot (alas, I never traveled with my aunt, and what a nice book of Greene that is), but she lived in Iran for a year in the fifties, I still have some trinkets from that sojourn. Now where's that agate ring, engraved with a Persian inscription, where are those turquoise stones? Somewhere in a box in a drawer in the attic.
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: constanius on October 26, 2015, 11:49:46 PM
The "British commemorative medal" is in fact the box lid from a set of royal medals.  There are 5 in the set, only 4 shown here.

(http://constanius.com/img/dscn2518_zps2d1ae569.jpg)

Pat
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 26, 2015, 11:56:27 PM
Well yes, it's the top of the 'Hope' whist box of four (in my case, three) tokens that was treated before in this thread.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on October 27, 2015, 12:00:00 AM
The bank token is AE, is that a counterfeit?

Originals are silver, but the contemporary imitations are usually brass. Producing a brass version was legal for a while. Spending them as the real thing after giving them a silver wash was not. Oddly, I never saw a brass copy with traces of silver.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: constanius on October 27, 2015, 12:07:25 AM
BHM only gives the boxed set as#2382 which contains 5 medals #1905, #1906, #1947, ##2383 & #2391 but of course it is possible that other sets were produced.

Pat
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 27, 2015, 08:32:27 AM
My brass Hope box has a diameter of 28 mm and is 9,5 mm thick. the weight is 19,53 gr. It contains three medals in white metal, one of them weighing 5,10 gr.
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 27, 2015, 08:39:28 AM
By the way, this is the rest of the box. The two (very worn, Parthian bronze) coins at the lower left were put in by me some years ago, the others were part of the many odds and ends left by my dear old aunt. (Yesterday, I uncovered a very nice Bols flask in the form of a woman in Scheveningen costume. Every day I'm using her knives and forks.)
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on October 27, 2015, 10:38:33 AM
Centre: Japanese 4 mon, probably kanei tsuho, possibly bunkyu eiho. Around, clockwise from upper left:
- military and government services medal, homeland or colonial for long service: 1825-1851 and 1928-1951. Spelling changed in 1951. You may find remnants of a loop on top, otherwise, this is probably an imitation.
- Medal of honour for Utrecht students who served in the military during the Belgian war of independence: PATRIAE DEFENSORIBUS ACAD: TRAJECT: CIVIBUS CURATORES MDCCCXXXI - the curators (have given this medal) to the citizens of the academy in Utrecht who defended the fatherland 1831. The horn above the wreath is a reminder of the unit: Compagnie vrijwillige jagers der Utrechtse hogeschool (volunteer chasseurs company of the Utrecht university - light cavalry, skirmishing and reconnaissance.)
- Japanese 1 mon, probably kanei tsuho.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Pellinore on October 29, 2015, 10:05:10 PM
Well, that's all right into the mark again. Some internet searching leads me to the 4 mon Bunkyuu eihou, about 1863.
The 11 o'clock medal has a filed off loop and much looks like a 19th century medal, with a richly ornate W on the reverse.
The 1 mon (kanei tsuhou) is without a mint mark, issued from the mid-17th to the mid-19th century in huge numbers. This is an 'old style legs' type minted between 1637 and 1668 (I think, the legs are in the picture).
I found this in a website about Kanei coin basics (http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/roberts/coins/Kaneibasics.html).
-- Paul
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on April 21, 2016, 11:35:58 AM
Just arrived, William IV box.

(http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu165/bagerap/DSCN3826-vert_zpsmk6ccnwm.jpg) (http://s644.photobucket.com/user/bagerap/media/DSCN3826-vert_zpsmk6ccnwm.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 21, 2016, 12:32:45 PM
It looks to be quite a nice one. I wonder how good they were when first made?

It looks weakly struck and it could not wear in that way as the font is recessed in and protected by the rim.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on April 21, 2016, 01:07:38 PM
It is sadly a superficial strike at best.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on April 10, 2017, 12:54:44 PM
Another, this disappeared from my scans.

WILLM COLE LIVERPOOL ST 23.5mm.

The reverse of this box is a little different from that used for the Windsor Castle box.

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30197.0;attach=50973;image)

New research has shown William Cole to be a W. COLE, Chronometer, Watch, and Clock Maker, Jeweller, &c. of 68, LIVERPOOL STREET, HOBART TOWN.

This of course is Tasmania, Australia. thus accounting for its rarity.

WILLIAM COLE

68, Liverpool Street, Hobart Town.

W. Cole - Hobart Town - 1865

William Cole arrived in Tasmania in c.1833, the choice of destination, however, was not his, as he was serving a sentence of transportation from England for fourteen years. He was employed by David Barclay as an assigned convict, and later went into partnership with another former convict, Charles Jones.
Source (http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18484&start=60#p63813)

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on July 12, 2017, 08:17:20 PM
I'm sad to have missed this. Did anyone on here win it?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Tiny-Antique-Victorian-Windsor-Castle-Toy-Coin-Shape-Box-1850-Joseph-Moore/253029581333?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on July 13, 2017, 12:54:41 AM
I didn't see it that I recall. I'll  save a couple of images.

after my three...

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30197.0;attach=50953;image)

from Reply #6 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30197.msg192571.html#msg192571)
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on July 13, 2017, 01:25:56 AM
It's a very pretty box, and so cheap too.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on July 13, 2017, 04:34:15 AM
Perhaps some comfort - it was bought by an experienced eBayer so you may not have won it anyway.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Henk on May 05, 2018, 09:32:59 PM
I recently obtained a Prince of Wales box. It came with two sets of miniature model coins.
One set is copper it consists of: Half, Quarter, Eighth and 1/16 Farthing. All dated 1848 except the last one which is not dated. The other one is silvered/tinned and consists of a Penny, Half Penny (2 pieces) and 1/4 penny. Also all dated 1848.

According to Rogers these boxes contain three miniature coins. Does any one know which of these sets belongs to the box. Also the copper set consists of 4 pieces. Perhaps the largest one, the half farthing does not belong to the other three as the portrait is different.

The diameter of the box is 17 mm, thickness is 5,3 mm. The two largest coins are 13,4 mm (half farthing) and 10.4 mm (penny). The smallest ones are 7,1 mm (1/16) and 7,2 mm (1/4 d).
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on May 06, 2018, 01:12:00 AM
It is difficult to be sure what the boxes contained after over 150 years, I don't think anything was published giving the exact details.

Both of your sets seem correct to me as although the bust is different on the first the reverse matches exactly, while with the silvered set the legend on the smaller coins was shortened to VR owing to lack of space.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on October 19, 2018, 03:01:17 PM
These look to me to belong to the Windsor Castle set, by which they should be 8.5 mm. Well, the young Princess certainly is but her father comes in at a whopping 10.2 mm.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on October 19, 2018, 11:16:33 PM
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=30197.0;attach=50954;image)

This is correct as the two coins for Victoria and Albert were issued in the larger size while those for their children were of the smaller size.

See Reply # 7 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30197.msg192574.html#msg192574) also 8

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on November 02, 2018, 01:46:53 PM
A new arrival. 22.5 mm x 11 mm, and it has a screw thread. Prince of Wales CoA on top and a wondeful surprise inside the lid.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on November 03, 2018, 12:56:57 PM
I can find similar, but no match:

https://www.historicmedals.com/viewItem.php?no=3374
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on November 03, 2018, 04:18:48 PM
An etch of the building and the story behind the firm is here (https://historicmedals.com/viewItem.php?no=3374). Scroll down to the picture labelled Thomason with his honours, from his Memoirs. You will find it also on page 186 of the 1979 reprint of Davis' The nineteenth century copper coinage, except that the portrait is unidentified there.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on November 03, 2018, 10:06:30 PM
Yet another box here (https://www.christophereimer.co.uk/medals/Thomason%27s+Manufactory%2C+Birmingham) but different again.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on November 13, 2018, 05:32:15 PM
Peter, your link is the same as mine in #101.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on November 13, 2018, 05:35:21 PM
I can find no reference anywhere to this particular box, nor its contents. Would it be safe to assume that it may have contained the same crowned heads as the filigree box? I can think of no other contemporary set of 20mm tokens.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on November 13, 2018, 10:14:49 PM
I think it must have done. Maybe its a slightly cheaper version as the filigree version would have been more difficult to produce.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on January 01, 2019, 02:36:56 PM
This is probably the first complete set that I've seen:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/The-Duke-Of-Wellington-British-Victories-1808-1815-Medal-Box-With-12-Inserts/123530029134?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on January 09, 2019, 06:22:17 PM
Saved for posterity:

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: Figleaf on January 09, 2019, 08:22:02 PM
Impressive. Apart from Toulouse, all seem to be reminders of the peninsular campaign; made before Waterloo. I would say that Wellington has had a deeper influence on British history than Churchill.

Peter
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on January 10, 2019, 01:43:00 AM
It didn't sell first time round and I'm getting a twitching in my wallet. I may have to try to negotiate.
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on August 31, 2019, 12:04:39 PM
The twitching has been awakened once more:

Duke of Wellington British Victories in Peninsula 24 Medallions Bronze Tube Thom (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Duke-of-Wellington-British-Victories-in-Peninsula-24-Medallions-Bronze-Tube-Thom/362736219997?hash=item5474c3775d:g:gHwAAOSwqPFdYnFi)
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: malj1 on August 31, 2019, 01:05:55 PM
You will have to buy it this otherwise I shall have to download all those images.

At least its under £200  >:D
Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on August 31, 2019, 01:28:32 PM
I'll send you a link to the pics when I find your email address

Title: Re: Brass boxes (model coins)
Post by: bagerap on August 31, 2019, 01:58:35 PM
WELLINGTON BRASS BOX - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kkm4sBxB9NtPm6GPS9VLTQoekiP1BW5g?usp=sharing)