World of Coins

Other tokens and medals => Advertising, propaganda and numismatic artefacts => Private countermarks => Topic started by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 10:08:53 AM

Title: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 10:08:53 AM
An unexpected piece from afar ;) Many thanks  8)
Forerunner of Suze.

Others I've found:

10 centimos 1878 - Spain
1d 1863 - UK

I've also heard of a 5 centimes luxembourg, an 1878 Greek 10 lepta, a 1/2d UK and a 10 centime piece of the ever-popular Nap III but I haven't seen any pictures.

The piccy of the advertising paper ticket was culled from Delcampe, it's available!
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: maxmissy on June 27, 2014, 11:36:04 AM
Herebelow other examples :
1/2 d UK - 10 c Luxembourg - 10 c Italy
Same overstrike on french coins is very scarce ( Your Nap III example ) : It is strictly forbidden by french law to "mutilate " french money ; " Le Picotin ", being a french brand, could have been fined.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 11:49:47 AM
Very nice  8)
I think that's a penny - 31mm? Like the other two.
I shall look out for the Nap III  ;D
And an incomplete P, nothing worse  :-\, for the first two?  Interesting!
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on June 27, 2014, 12:29:00 PM
Yours too is the broken P, as you can see from maxmissy's image there are two varieties to be found.

Very difficult to find any information on Le Picotin Aperitif - Cointalk (https://www.cointalk.com/threads/more-baltimore-stuff.166579/) says:

This was a French liquor made by a firm located in the suburbs of Paris, but they had their warehouse in the city at 16 Rue Quincampoix.

Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 12:45:37 PM
I'd go for 1885-1889
See http://www.pernod.fr/english/marques/autres_boissons/suze.html
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 01:08:20 PM
Apparently it was oat based??
http://cgma.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/picotin-1/
CGB also references this site.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on June 27, 2014, 01:37:17 PM
Google translate helped me read this:

THE PECK

APERITIF OAT

Fresh oranges and

F. MOUREAUX & Cie - Alfort (Seine)

blog-le-picotin-pub-rue-du-four-paris-1895

I never drank "Peck" and I was totally unaware of the existence of an appetizer oat, I had stayed at traditional food for horses, this has opened new horizons for me ... In addition, allegedly manufactured by a company Maisonnaise ...?

After some research on the web, I learned that in fact Fernand Moureaux, owner of the distillery Rousseau & Laurents moved to Maisons-Alfort in 1885 and would compete with brands in vogue at that time his drink "bitter".
In fact, it is the ancestor of "Suze" well-known, especially in Maisons-Alfort aperitif.
Like what, with a good magnifying glass, we get to read small print, and we learn about his own town!
  Sylvie R
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 01:58:26 PM
The answer lies here "Le Calvados, magazine de votre département N°103 - Juin / Juillet 2011." but it's going to take me a while to translate understand it  :-[  And the author gives no references! Bad form!!
One of the bits that I did understand was that in 1889 at the Universal Exposition some of the competition weren't pleased and made a banner saying "At last an aperatif for the donkeys"  8)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 02:40:59 PM
I've paraphrased it somewhat:

At the end of the nineteenth century there were two small distilleries in Quincampoix Street, Paris. That of the Rousseau family and that of
the Moureaux family. Rousseau had a daughter, Marguerite; Moureaux had a son, Fernand. They married. 

In 1889 for the Universal Exhibition in Paris Fernand took along some Picotin.  It was rather strong - 35° and 37°.

He printed many posters on which were two donkeys, leant over a bowl of "Picotin" happily licking their chops.  The competition reacted by plastering banners saying "Donkeys have finally found their aperitif" on Fernand's billboards.

After this he changed his strategy, halving the alcohol content. [This is where it's a bit confused.]
Using Kappeler's "Gold of the Alps" recipe he created Suze.  Porte supplied the bottle design from a bottle he found in his attic. It must have been good as it appeared in a Picasso collage in 1912.

He settled in Trouville, Calvados............
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 06:03:33 PM
Had another quick look around based on what Mal said about the incomplete P:

1d 1862 - UK (incomplete P)
1d 1863 - UK (P) [cgb]
1d 1881 - UK (incomplete P) [delcampe]
10 centimos 1878 - Spain (incomplete P) [cgb]
10 lepta  1878 - Greece (?)
10 centimes ? - Luxembourg (incomplete P)
5 centisimi 1862M - Italy (incomplete P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1863M - Italy (P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?T - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?N - Italy (P)

Latest date 1881.

Mentioned in:
1886 Revue britannique: Revue internationale reproduisant les articles des meilleurs écrits periodiques de l'étranger, complètés par des articles originaux, Volumes 5-6
1887 Revue illustrée, Volume 4 - can't see proof?
1891 Revue des vins et liqueurs et des produits alimentaires pour l'exportation...  (Paris): F. Moureaux et Cie, distillation en général, et spécialement la fabrication de la liqueur « le Picotin » 5, quai d'Alfort, Alfort

So I reckon the product itself dates from 1885.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 06:25:36 PM
Found this on ebay past - looks a tad odd?

1/2 d 1861 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1862 - UK (incomplete P)
1d 1863 - UK (P) [cgb]
1d 1881 - UK (incomplete P) [delcampe]
10 centimos 1878 - Spain (incomplete P) [cgb]
10 lepta  1878 - Greece (P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centimes ? - Luxembourg (incomplete P)
5 centisimi 1862M - Italy (incomplete P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1863M - Italy (P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centisimi ?T - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?N - Italy (P)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 06:38:16 PM
Here's a lovely ad with donkeys  8)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9004856p.r=picotin.langEN

So not 1885  :-[ but pre 1876! Note award. And note Depositaire P. Rousseau 14 Rue Quincampoix, PARIS  :o
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: africancoins on June 27, 2014, 07:21:25 PM
I have a piece... described at time of receipt as follows...

GB 1 Penny 1876 stamped with “LE” / “PICOTIN” / “APERITIF” stamped on obverse of coin centred slightly above the centre of the coin, flawed quality to stamping at “P”, “P” and “R”, portrait about worn flat, hardly any details of Britannia remain visible on the back.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 27, 2014, 08:14:25 PM
Paul, is the P of Picotin complete? Many thanks  ;D
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on June 28, 2014, 12:09:53 AM
Found this on ebay past - looks a tad odd?

10 lepta  1878 - Greece (P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]

10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]

I shall look out the Numismatic Circulars later today, to check whether I have these volumes. I think I sent you a copy of the one section I have on Scott's French countermarks on British coins that I have; this give this mention: [see below]

Looking at the few images we have I feel it has the appearance of the same stamp being used throughout that is gradually breaking up, with the P breaking first.

Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on June 28, 2014, 03:45:32 AM
The attachment I gave above is from  Scott's French Countermarks on British coins which appeared in SNC Vol LXXXVII = 87 [1979]

This was an updated version of the article which had previously appeared in parts in Vol LXXXVI = 86 - Jan, Feb. and Mar. 1978

Presumably these articles are now redundant which is fortunate as I don't have those particular months.

There is nothing regarding these pieces in Vol 78.

A copy of this article is in my Dropbox. PM me for a link to the article if required.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on June 28, 2014, 04:00:51 AM
Here's a lovely ad with donkeys  8)
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9004856p.r=picotin.langEN

So not 1885  :-[ but pre 1876! Note award. And note Depositaire P. Rousseau 14 Rue Quincampoix, PARIS  :o

Not necessarily so for the countermark.

The latest dated coin that you found is 1881 - so they would have been stamped, or were still being stamped, after this date, on anything that was in circulation at that time..
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on June 28, 2014, 07:05:35 AM
Many thanks Mal  ;D
This circular is in google books.  I'm not sure about others.

And sounds feasible.  Although there does seem to be some design differences in the letters. Possibly ::)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: africancoins on July 04, 2014, 11:19:40 PM
On the piece I have - the "P" at the start of "PICOTIN" has a bit missing - just as some pieces that have been shown earlier in this topic.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on July 05, 2014, 02:13:59 PM
Many thanks Paul.  ;D
Updated list:
1/2 d 1861 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1862 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1863 - UK (P) [cgb]
1d 1873 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1876 - UK (incomplete P) [woc]
1d 1876H - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1881 - UK (incomplete P) [delcampe]
10 centimos 1878 - Spain (incomplete P) [cgb & ebay]
10 lepta  1878 - Greece (P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centimes ? - Luxembourg (incomplete P)
5 centisimi 1862M - Italy (incomplete P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1863M - Italy (P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centisimi 1867M - Italy (P) [ebay]
10 centisimi ?T - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?N - Italy (P)

Edit: Added in reference
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on November 26, 2016, 10:27:39 AM
Here is the entry for 'Le Picotin' from Jetons et médailles publicitaires français et coloniaux : Commerce et industrie, artisanat, professions libérales, maisons de tolérance ÉLIE R. 1994 in the countermark section listed under Paris.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on March 08, 2017, 08:18:24 PM
Updated list:
1/2 d 1861 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1862 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1863 - UK (P) [cgb]
1d 1873 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1876 - UK (incomplete P) [woc]
1d 1876H - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1881 - UK (incomplete P) [delcampe]
10 centimos 1878 - Spain (incomplete P) [cgb & ebay]
10 lepta  1878 - Greece (P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centimes ? - Luxembourg (incomplete P)
5 centisimi 1862M - Italy (incomplete P) [cgb]
5 centisimi 1867M - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi 1863M - Italy (P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centisimi 1867M - Italy (P) [ebay]
10 centisimi 1867N - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?T - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?N - Italy (P)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on March 08, 2017, 09:57:35 PM
While not related to the 'Le Picotin' countermarks this PDF (http://www.edwardlloyd.org/coins-eb.pdf) gives an insight into how the countermarked coins came about.
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on March 09, 2017, 06:47:44 AM
Good to hear a Welshman started it!  >:D
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on December 18, 2017, 06:35:28 PM
Updated list:
1/2 d 1861 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1861 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1862 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1863 - UK (incomplete P) [Mal]
1d 1863 - UK (P) [cgb]
1d 1873 - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1876 - UK (incomplete P) [woc]
1d 1876H - UK (incomplete P) [ebay]
1d 1881 - UK (incomplete P) [delcampe]
10 centimos 1878 - Spain (incomplete P) [cgb & ebay]
10 lepta  1878 - Greece (P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centimes ? - Luxembourg (incomplete P)
5 centisimi 1862M - Italy (incomplete P) [cgb]
5 centisimi 1867M - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi 1863M - Italy (P) [cgb]
10 centisimi 1866M - Italy (incomplete P) [The Numismatic Circular, Volumes 87-88]
10 centisimi 1867M - Italy (P) [ebay]
10 centisimi 1867N - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?T - Italy (incomplete P)
10 centisimi ?N - Italy (P)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: malj1 on July 14, 2018, 07:07:21 AM
I now have an 1863 British penny with the Le Picotin Aperitif countermark and once again its the broken P ...the stamp must have broken quite early.  ::)
Title: Re: Le Picotin Aperitif countermark 10 centisimi - Italy
Post by: redwine on July 14, 2018, 08:50:37 AM
Nice one ;D
I've updated above.