World of Coins

Design and designing => Coin characteristics => Topic started by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 02:58:45 PM

Title: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 02:58:45 PM
Inspired by this thread (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,2661.msg13885.html#msg13885), I thought I'd post some paper "coins". Here is the French contribution, a series of 5 and 10 centimes tokens issued by the Crédit Lyonnais, a bank that still existed when I last checked. Small change was practically impossible to get in France in the years following the first world war, due to a silly policy that held that Germany was to compensate all war damage. Tokens filled the void. CL encased stamps so their customers wouldn't lose a centime when the emergency was over and took the opportunity to advertise themselves and a national loan at 6%. The cases are the same, only the stamps differ.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 04:10:42 PM
Here is the Danish contribution. Same period, same idea, except that the cases advertise tobacco.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 04:26:48 PM
The idea was simplified when at the outbreak of the second world war, Denmark found itself without 1 øre pieces. The frames were replaced by a simple cellophane wrap. The ads are widely different, from banks (like this one), radios and suits to newspapers, stamp shops and quite a few brands of rye bread. By contrast, colours were restricted to black, purplish blue, green, dark red, orange and yellow. This is coloured money that did circulate.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 04:46:21 PM
Spain's fascists kept it old style during the civil war. No ads either.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2009, 05:00:23 PM
Not sure if this one was issued by their opponents, but maybe so. Don Quijote would not be a nationalist hero. The ad is for a Barcelona shoe shop.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: translateltd on January 02, 2009, 07:22:35 PM
And in about 1916, Russia printed stamps on cardboard to enable them to circulate without getting crumpled - they printed some text on what would normally have been the adhesive side explaining their monetary purpose, if I remember correctly.  I have a set somewhere - will see if I can find it.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: translateltd on January 02, 2009, 10:41:23 PM
And in about 1916, Russia printed stamps on cardboard to enable them to circulate without getting crumpled - they printed some text on what would normally have been the adhesive side explaining their monetary purpose, if I remember correctly.  I have a set somewhere - will see if I can find it.

I notice muntenman mentioned these here:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,214.msg558.html#msg558

Here are mine:

(http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~translate/not_stamps_or_coins_or_notes.jpg)

The right-hand example in each case shows the common "other side"; in the top row it's a second 15 kopek, in the bottom a 3 kopek.

Title: Paper money, yet not banknotes.
Post by: BC Numismatics on January 03, 2009, 12:21:56 AM
America was actually the first country to issued encased stamp tokens.They were issued just after the Civil War,due to a coin shortage.The stamps were placed behind mica windows.

The British Armed Forces use a series of laminated paper tokens,which circulate as substitutes for coins.You can see them at http://www.efipogs.com .Unfortunately,these are not listed in the Pick catalogue like the American ones are.The first issues have the denominations expressed in Cents with the later issues having the denomination expressed in Euro-Cents.

Aidan.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: chrisild on January 03, 2009, 12:49:31 AM
This article comes with a picture of another "stamp coin":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briefmarkenkapselgeld

By the way, there were also "banknotes" that had stamps attached:
http://www.moneypedia.de/index.php/Briefmarkengeld

But apparently the production was fairly costly, so such "stamp notes" have not been very successful.

Christian
Title: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: BC Numismatics on January 03, 2009, 12:57:25 AM
Bulawayo issued a series of stamp card banknotes in 1900.These are listed in the Pick Specialised catalogue as banknotes,but incorrectly under 'South Africa'.These very rare notes are regarded as being the very first Rhodesian banknotes.I have got one of the 6d. ones in my collection.

Aidan.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on January 03, 2009, 01:05:03 AM
Thanks, Christian. I'l be looking out for German and Austrian encased stamps now. Thanks to Martin & Aidan, I'll be looking for Russians too. Those American thingies are a bit expensive.

I noticed the Wikipedia article doesn't mention Denmark and Spain. My German isn't good enough, but if you want to add that story to the lemma, go ahead. You can use the scans too if you want, though they are disfigured by the light effects ...

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 20, 2020, 11:25:52 AM
I thought I'd wake this thread up after so many years. I found this interesting piece of French encased postage and it seemed the right place to post it.

Mr. Google has let me down again. I'm not really getting good translations so I'm not sure who issued it. I thought it could be roughly dated from the stamp itself. Any help in identifying it would be appreciated.

The area of encased postage collecting is interesting. I've thought many times over the years about adding some to my collecting, but over here they've always been quite pricey. The only US issue that is reasonably priced is the Ayers examples (image attached). Even these relatively common pieces are expensive though.

Knowing very little about encased postage, I thought it was a short-lived American only experiment in emergency money. Now I know better and that makes the genre even more interesting. Here's some interesting history I came across.
https://postalmuseum.si.edu/exhibition/about-us-stamps-special-use-stamps/encased-postage-stamps

Bruce
                                               
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Henk on June 20, 2020, 12:14:19 PM
Three in my collection: Austria, Germany and Argentina
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on June 20, 2020, 12:42:09 PM
Thank you for reviving this thread! Spectabulous contributions.

Translation of the French token:
Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 20, 2020, 02:06:41 PM
Three in my collection: Austria, Germany and Argentina
I see your first example is dated 1862. That's the very early years of this type of encasement. As far as I know they were only popular in 1862 / 1863 in the US during the Civil War. Once private medal tokens were issued and federal coinage caught up to the demand they became irrelevant . Three nice examples, Henk.

Thank you for reviving this thread! Spectabulous contributions.

Translation of the French token:

Well, I just learned a new word, Peter. Spectabulous is a rather elegant word, one that might be called a "$3 word" here. :)

Thanks for the translations.

Bruce

  • Comptoir L. Vaisse & Cie. - Office/shop of [company name]
  • 99 Rue de Richelieu . Paris - [company address] This street now houses a number of stamp and coin/precious metal trading shops. It is close to the old Paris stock exchange.
  • Renseignements commerciaux - commercial/marketing information
  • Indications de représentants - information on agents
  • Listes d'adresses - address lists
  • Bté S.G.D.G. - Breveté Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breveté_SGDG)
Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Henk on June 20, 2020, 02:51:21 PM
I see your first example is dated 1862. That's the very early years of this type of encasement.

It is not dated 1862. This date refers to the year the emitting firm was established. The encasement dates from the 1920's
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: stef on June 20, 2020, 06:01:43 PM
I thought I'd wake this thread up after so many years. I found this interesting piece of French encased postage and it seemed the right place to post it.

Mr. Google has let me down again. I'm not really getting good translations so I'm not sure who issued it. I thought it could be roughly dated from the stamp itself. Any help in identifying it would be appreciated.                                             
Here is an ad from the French newspaper Le Figaro (19 August 1919) for L. Vaïsse. The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct. Seems to be some sort of detective agency in the business world. This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 20, 2020, 09:18:37 PM
Here is an ad from the French newspaper Le Figaro (19 August 1919) for L. Vaïsse. The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct. Seems to be some sort of detective agency in the business world. This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.


Many thanks, Stef.

These types of businesses were known as intelligence agencies in the US in the 19th century. In census records the proprietors were often described as "intelligencers" I'm not sure the two dealt with the same exact businesses, but I think they're close. I have a counterstamped quarter with one such company's name stamped on it located in St. Louis.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on June 20, 2020, 10:28:40 PM
The first French agency for confidential inquiries, if my translation is correct.

Almost. In this context, it is foremost, rather than first.

This kind of tokens were in use from 1920 to 1923-24.

About 1916 to 1924, I'd say.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: stef on June 20, 2020, 11:41:34 PM
Almost. In this context, it is foremost, rather than first.

About 1916 to 1924, I'd say.

Peter
Yes, thanks for „foremost“ instead of „first". I studied French in high school, many many years ago.


The patent of Edouard Bouchaud-Praceiq for the encased stamp tokens is from March 1920 („Sorte de jeton composite
comme monnaie courante et susceptible d’applications en publicité“). Stamps were used before, for example in envelopes or booklets (carnets).
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Afrasi on June 21, 2020, 09:04:47 AM
An African example (Picture: Saive). Ilavoamena = half Voamena = 1/48
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 25, 2020, 01:17:04 AM
Although this piece displays an Italian stamp it's actually issued by a French hotel in Nice. From what I understand, Nice is so close to the Italian border that some French merchants used Italian stamps. I would think that would be true of Italian issuers (if there are any) sometimes using French stamps as well.

According to the source that listed this example the piece dates to the 1920's. Would anyone know if this era's encased postage had a value attached to it or was it simply used for advertising? I've actually seen a few contemporary American issues that were used for advertising purposes and had no value attached to them.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on June 25, 2020, 06:15:35 AM
Nice, Nizza in Italian, changed hands between France and Italy a number of times, though it is at heart an Italian town. The last change took place only in 1860 and the people of Nice would probably have counted with the possibility that it would one day revert to Italy again. Nevertheless, the stamp would not be honoured by the French post office and Italy is not really in walking distance of the city centre.

I know of one case where an Italian town is heavily French-oriented: Aosta. To go to France from there is even more difficult, since there are some mountains in the way.

The value of the encased stamps was the denomination of the stamp. In theory, once the scarcity of coins was over, you could break out the stamp and use it without a loss of money. In practice, I suspect that an Italian stamp would pass in Nice, but travelling to Italy to spend it would cost a whole lot more than 5 centesimi (about a halfpenny in those days.)

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: stef on June 25, 2020, 08:52:19 AM
Although this piece displays an Italian stamp it's actually issued by a French hotel in Nice. From what I understand, Nice is so close to the Italian border that some French merchants used Italian stamps. I would think that would be true of Italian issuers (if there are any) sometimes using French stamps as well.

According to the source that listed this example the piece dates to the 1920's. Would anyone know if this era's encased postage had a value attached to it or was it simply used for advertising? I've actually seen a few contemporary American issues that were used for advertising purposes and had no value attached to them.

Bruce
Very curious example. It exists with with French stamps too. I couldn't find any information about the reason behind the usage of Italian stamps. You can see also the trademark of the producer - FYP ("Fallait Y Penser").


The encased stamps circulated as small change but were not cost effective for the issuer. The producer required a minimum quantity of 1000 items - 10c per piece for stamped and 7.5c for colored tokens (without the value of the stamp). Obviously, for the issuer the possibility to advertise its business was more important.


Most of the information about these tokens is in French but you can find an article in this (http://www.fcps.org.uk/images/Journals/Journal_233_September_2004.pdf) journal in English (p. 99).

Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: FosseWay on June 25, 2020, 08:55:57 AM
Here's my contribution - an Italian 10 centesimi with advert for Pirelli tyres. Issued 1919-1923 according to a seller on the web, though I have no independent verification of that.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 25, 2020, 11:19:14 AM
Nice, Nizza in Italian, changed hands between France and Italy a number of times, though it is at heart an Italian town. The last change took place only in 1860 and the people of Nice would probably have counted with the possibility that it would one day revert to Italy again. Nevertheless, the stamp would not be honoured by the French post office and Italy is not really in walking distance of the city centre.

I know of one case where an Italian town is heavily French-oriented: Aosta. To go to France from there is even more difficult, since there are some mountains in the way.

The value of the encased stamps was the denomination of the stamp. In theory, once the scarcity of coins was over, you could break out the stamp and use it without a loss of money. In practice, I suspect that an Italian stamp would pass in Nice, but travelling to Italy to spend it would cost a whole lot more than 5 centesimi (about a halfpenny in those days.)

Peter
It's a bit of a surprise to me that an Italian stamp would be accepted anywhere in France, but in Nice it might be so. Foreign stamps aren't accepted anywhere here although Canadian money was once accepted in border towns, especially in Maine and New York. In our many travels as kids we visited Canada many times and I well remember seeing Canadian / American money used interchangeably. I doubt that would be the case today.

Those "mountains in the way" aren't just foothills so that would definitely be an impediment. ;D

Very curious example. It exists with with French stamps too. I couldn't find any information about the reason behind the usage of Italian stamps. You can see also the trademark of the producer - FYP ("Fallait Y Penser").


The encased stamps circulated as small change but were not cost effective for the issuer. The producer required a minimum quantity of 1000 items - 10c per piece for stamped and 7.5c for colored tokens (without the value of the stamp). Obviously, for the issuer the possibility to advertise its business was more important.


Most of the information about these tokens is in French but you can find an article in this (http://www.fcps.org.uk/images/Journals/Journal_233_September_2004.pdf) journal in English (p. 99).



Thanks for the good information and the link, stef, and for pointing out the  maker's trademark. I had difficulty seeing it.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 25, 2020, 11:27:23 AM
Here's my contribution - an Italian 10 centesimi with advert for Pirelli tyres. Issued 1919-1923 according to a seller on the web, though I have no independent verification of that.

That's a nice example, but I wonder what material the protective cover is made from. It shows wrinkling so must be thin and flexible.

This would draw a lot of attention from a collector of automobile memorabilia.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 28, 2020, 02:07:25 PM
I mentioned in Post #21 that I'd seen some modern US encased stamps and just recently came across this one. While the other small number I've seen were for advertising only...having no access to the stamp... this one was good for ten cents with no connection to the value of the stamp itself.

This example was issued for the centennial of the city of Syracuse, NY in 1948 by the sheet metal firm of Nicholas Korb. I'm not sure who would redeem it for a Roosevelt dime...at any centennial event, in trade at participating city businesses, or by Korb himself maybe. While the stamp was originally issued by the government to honor President Roosevelt who died in 1945, that wouldn't be the case here. This piece was likely intended to be a souvenir of the city's celebration.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Figleaf on June 28, 2020, 05:20:00 PM
Sympathetic! The money grabbers get 10 cents for 5, scoring a 100% profit; the souvenir hunters get a nice souvenir at practically no cost and Korb has an ultra-cheap ad campaign. Everybody wins. Brass must have been cheap in those days (spent munition cases).

I wonder what private individuals would use sheet metal for. You'd have to be pretty handy to turn it into something useful. Maybe Korb would also sell half-finished objects, like brass cutlery, ready to be silvered or zinc pipes for the do-it-yourself genius?

Another thing that amused me was the date 1848. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syracuse,_New_York), the Syracuse in the US was incorporated as a city in 1847 and as a village in 1825. It smells a bit like "hey, we are at peace, let's have a party". Nothing wrong with parties, but the thought was good for a smile.

Peter
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on June 28, 2020, 08:22:02 PM
Well, I'm properly outraged by the discrepancy. It could be that they city elders decided to incorporate the city on December 31st, 1847 after many rounds of adult beverages, but didn't make it official until late on New Years Day, 1848 after recovering from their hangovers. In any case, I'll compose a pointed letter to the present city council laced with harsh language...after lunch ;D

I couldn't find anything about Korb, but did discover that he also issued encased stamps in denominations of 1, 2, and 3 cents. Same size, composition and wording as the 5 cent example.

Bruce
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Henk on July 23, 2020, 08:50:38 PM
An example of a private note issue that derives its value from the stamp, inside a pocket in the note. Encased is an orange Germania 10 pfennig stamp

This one is from Bremen, made by C.A. Nicolaus and with different advertisments on front and back.
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: Henk on July 23, 2020, 08:57:44 PM
A modern example from Italy (1970's) A paper envelope with printing, containing two 50 Lire stamps. Issued by Autostrada S.p.A.

The tranlation of the text: ci scusiamo dover sopperire con francobolli alla carenze di moneta spicciola. Utillizatali per il pagamente del pedaggie, is  we apologize for having to make up for the lack of small money with stamps. Use them for the payment of the toll
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: chrisild on July 23, 2020, 09:11:32 PM
Both very nice "exhibits", thank you!

Christian
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: gerard974 on July 24, 2020, 05:41:44 AM
Hello
Is one from Spain

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f83/14/89/20/87/necess11.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/14892087/1468)

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f83/14/89/20/87/necess10.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/14892087/1467)

Best regards Gerard
Title: Re: Paper money, yet not banknotes
Post by: brandm24 on July 24, 2020, 09:12:03 AM
An example of a private note issue that derives its value from the stamp, inside a pocket in the note. Encased is an orange Germania 10 pfennig stamp

This one is from Bremen, made by C.A. Nicolaus and with different advertisments on front and back.
I've never seen a stamp "encased" this way. Very nice, Henk.

Bruce