World of Coins

Euro coins => Commemorative 2 euro coins => Topic started by: Pabitra on March 21, 2014, 08:50:53 PM

Title: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 21, 2014, 08:50:53 PM
Belgium might issue a coin on bicentenary of Battle of Waterloo in 2015.
Even though Belgium as a nation did not exist in 1815, the battle which changed the shape and history of Europe, was fought in area now in Belgium.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 11, 2015, 09:20:53 AM
It may not be allowed to issue

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2989209/Paris-tries-block-Waterloo-200th-anniversary-coin-upset-French-people.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11462782/French-try-to-block-Battle-of-Waterloo-coin.html
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: augsburger on March 11, 2015, 09:30:30 AM
Official, History will be changed to keep the French happy.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 11, 2015, 09:37:32 AM
If you don't then geography of EU may change 😉
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Figleaf on March 11, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
Maybe we should wait for a serious newspaper to confirm this. It sounds like an RT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)) bulletin ;)

Peter
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 11, 2015, 01:39:49 PM
According to Nostradamus, Joan of Arc President Le Pen will annex those troublesome Walloons in 2017 and force them to melt all their propagandistic coins.  :-X
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Figleaf on March 11, 2015, 01:43:32 PM
At last believable stuff coming out of Nostradamus. For the historically inclined, there's a slightly over the top, but interesting page on Waterloo here (http://www.denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2004/07/Waterlooasitreallyhappene.shtml). Waterloo a German victory?

Peter
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 11, 2015, 02:32:56 PM
According to Nostradamus, Joan of Arc President Le Pen will annex those troublesome Walloons in 2017 and force them to melt all their propagandistic coins.  :-X

If the Walloons go to France, Flanders will become a great nation.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: chrisild on March 11, 2015, 03:37:42 PM
If the Walloons go to France, Flanders will become a great nation.

Maybe we should leave it up to the Belgians whether they want Belgium to be one country, or merge parts of it with some other country. ;)  Let's focus on coins here ...

Christian
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 12, 2015, 10:34:57 AM
France wins second battle of Waterloo, after loosing Battle of Marignano


www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/12/france-wins-second-battle-of-waterloo-after-commemoration-coin-dropped

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/11/us-odd-eurozone-waterloo-idUSKBN0M72K220150311

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/03/11/battle-of-waterloo-euro-coin_n_6846136.html

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.numismatica-visual.es/#translate-en

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.numismatica-visual.es/2015/02/vetada-moneda-de-2e-cc-2015-batalla-de-marignano/&usg=ALkJrhieKlE0rFzCktyJkBl-TIbzIMG3eA

Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Bimat on March 12, 2015, 10:38:06 AM
Following France's stand on this particular issue, India should also protest against Pakistan for issuing Pakistan-China friendship coins. ;D :D ;)

Aditya
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 12, 2015, 10:50:57 AM
This year, the Government of India calendar has the theme " golden Jubilee of 1965 Victory".

You never know, India may go ahead and issue a 50 Rupees face value Gold coin on India's victory over Pakistan, since the new Government has already announced its plan to issue gold coins.

Alternately, India should issue India - Russia friendship coin.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Bimat on March 12, 2015, 10:55:08 AM
This year, the Government of India calendar has the theme " golden Jubilee of 1965 Victory".

You never know, India may go ahead and issue a 50 Rupees face value Gold coin since the new Government has already announced its plan to issue gold coins.

Alternately, India should issue India - Russia friendship coin.

 :D

"Golden Jubilee of 1965 Victory" is indeed a good theme. But then China may issue a coin in 2022 commemorating "60 Years of Sino-Indian War" (which we lost) ::)

Aditya

Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Figleaf on March 12, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
At least Reuters got it right:

Quote
Belgium withdrew a proposal to strike a special 2-euro piece in honor of the Anglo-Dutch-German victory outside Brussels on June 18, 1815, an EU official said, averting an EU ministerial vote after Paris objected on the grounds that glorifying a time of conflict ran counter to efforts to foster European unity.

It is a unilateral Belgian decision to withdraw the proposal after a French objection and its not about the message but about the medium. As Reuters noted, the UK will issue a Waterloo coin.

No other nation than the UK and especially its press has such intense hate for its allies and nothing to say about its enemies.

Peter
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 12, 2015, 01:32:16 PM
Phil is not English.
His logo shows a cup of coffee and no decent Englishman would dare seen sipping anything but tea.
He is as mainland European as Peter and Christian are :-)
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 12, 2015, 02:09:08 PM
Somewhere in this debate, we all forgot the proposed design.

Here it is.

In my opinion, a beautiful design which does great job of highlighting the Lion memorial.

Indeed, it would have been one of the better designed Belgian coins.

It does honour my personal hero, the Duke of Wellington, who as a young man as Col.Arthur Wellesley performed brilliantly in Anglo- Mysore War ( Battle of Seringapatam ) and Anglo - Maratha War ( Battle of Assaye ) and contributed more  to tactics of battlefield than any one person in human history.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 12, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
Well, maybe we can have a coin commemorating the battle over the Battle of Waterloo design.  :D  That design would certainly have been preferable to another one with stars and flags (just as I groan when I see another Britannia design for the UK), but it's entirely up to the eurozone which designs they allow and do not. But it's good to see another unrealised design, so thank you, Pabitra.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 13, 2015, 11:47:05 AM
In the UK we have the Royal Mint Advisory Committee, which uses its experience to avoid such controversy and sensitive issues. The eurozone, which is relatively young and still developing, needs something similar. The eurozone covers a large community, so there is more room for disagreement. It's not impossible, however, and a good start would be to avoid commemorating European battles and wars and to concentrate on cultural achievements. The press everywhere (and not just the British) loves controversy - harmony is rarely newsworthy. So the eurozone needs an advisory committee (or perhaps it already has one) and some way of stopping leaks about disagreements.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: augsburger on March 13, 2015, 11:55:32 AM
It's funny how the French didn't object to a coin about D-Day, a battle that got the Germans under the thumb, but they DO object to one where they lost.

I'd say that the act of trying to reject this coin does MORE harm for unity than just allowing the coin. Did the D-Day coin have Germans getting all annoyed?
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: kena on March 15, 2015, 11:41:49 PM
So if anyone finds out information on how to obtain one of the 180,000 of the coins, could they please let me know?
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Bimat on March 16, 2015, 06:52:00 AM
So if anyone finds out information on how to obtain one of the 180,000 of the coins, could they please let me know?

Considering that the Belgian mint has very poor quality control system, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the coins are 'leaked' in other €2 rolls.

Aditya
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 16, 2015, 07:25:53 AM
They cannot release it in to circulation since it is not approved by ECB.
In a monetary union, Central bank of individual nations have to give up their right to decide on specifications of legal tender.
They can not issue this coin as legal tender of 2 Euro and can not change the denomination since they are already minted.
At best, they can sell it as pattern, in card, and sell it much above the "face value " as they did for Red Cross coin. That experience should stand them in good stead and help them in pricing.

Personally, I feel that the selling price of this pattern would easily be double that coin since topic and theme has attracted international attention.

In other words, France had helped a good cause by creating a controversary and for all you know, ultimate victory may be that of Belgian mint.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Bimat on March 16, 2015, 09:43:42 AM
They cannot release it in to circulation since it is not approved by ECB.
In a monetary union, Central bank of individual nations have to give up their right to decide on specifications of legal tender.
They can not issue this coin as legal tender of 2 Euro and can not change the denomination since they are already minted.
At best, they can sell it as pattern, in card, and sell it much above the "face value " as they did for Red Cross coin. That experience should stand them in good stead and help them in pricing.

Personally, I feel that the selling price of this pattern would easily be double that coin since topic and theme has attracted international attention.

In other words, France had helped a good cause by creating a controversary and for all you know, ultimate victory may be that of Belgian mint.

Please don't give them new ideas to make more money. ;)

Aditya
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 16, 2015, 10:05:52 AM
It's funny how the French didn't object to a coin about D-Day, a battle that got the Germans under the thumb, but they DO object to one where they lost.

They did not object since they issued the coin.
Germans did not protest since D Day landing were not the cause of German loss.
If one looks at I passionately, France issuing D Day coin indicates weakness of France who needed external help to get themselves liberated. Had some other opinions prevailed, France would have become colony of one of the victorious allied countries, very much like Poland, Czech etc.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on March 16, 2015, 03:27:04 PM
Waterloo 2 euro commemorative coins will be destroyed
full video here http://www.rtl.be/videos/video/529117.aspx

On the other hand

Switzerland will issue a stamp this year celebrating the 500 years of the Battle of Marignagno ... which they lost !


This is Europe.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: kena on March 17, 2015, 01:34:48 PM
You are speaking about collector coins rather than circulating coins.

For example, I like the fact that the US has serveral different backs on the quarters each year for quite a while now, as well as the changing the Native American dollar back each year, and for now, they have the President dollar series.

The UK Olympic 50 pence coins were a bit of an overload.

Ken
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 17, 2015, 01:37:24 PM
You are speaking about collector coins rather than circulating coins.

Ken

Even with circulation coins, tastes vary, of course.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: augsburger on March 17, 2015, 01:42:42 PM
Even with circulation coins, tastes vary, of course.

Yes they do. However in general most people would say that most 2 euro commemorative coins are pretty boring.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 17, 2015, 01:44:48 PM
Yes they do. However in general most people would say that most 2 euro commemorative coins are pretty boring.

Another silly generalisation. Have you interviewed "most people" ?
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: augsburger on March 17, 2015, 01:48:16 PM
Another silly generalisation. Have you interviewed "most people" ?

I'm sorry if you're looking for a fight, but I'm not interested.

I'm saying what I think.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Prosit on March 17, 2015, 01:49:51 PM
Sounds to me like a good subject for a poll

Dale


Another silly generalisation. Have you interviewed "most people" ?
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on March 17, 2015, 01:49:54 PM
I'm certainly not looking for a fight. I'm asking you to think logically and give a basis for your opinion, which rests on shallow foundations.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Pabitra on April 22, 2015, 05:10:04 PM
French exiled Napoleon but do not want others to remember his defeat?
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: chrisild on April 22, 2015, 11:02:09 PM
If you like to, post all kinds of Napoleon/Waterloo related coins with QEII's effigy here. I thought this forum was about "Circulation and commemorative euro coins" ... ;)

Christian
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Figleaf on April 23, 2015, 09:13:05 AM
A better course would be to give us your assessment of Napoleon. He is a controversial figure.

Interesting question. I'll give it a try.

Like all real people, Napoléon had good sides and bad sides. On the bad side, he is responsible for more French dead than any other Frenchmen. He caused great suffering when taking his Grande Armée towards, into and out of Russia. As head of state, he was responsible for the unspeakably horrible atrocities and looting committed by the French army in Spain and Portugal. While he lost few battles he led personally, I think he relied too much on one tactic. When Wellington caught up with his technology, Napoléon did not adapt.

On the good side, the body of law known as the code Napoléon is still the basis of most law systems (excluding Anglo-Saxon countries). He took the Franc de Germinal from distrusted reform coin status to the only realistic alternative to the British pound. His patronage of neo-classical art was an important impulse to art for generations. It took generations before Britain and Prussia could match French diplomacy (Talleyrand).

On the military side, his system of promotion by merit, even though it was polluted by who-do-you-know in practice, was hugely better than buying rank (the British system up to colonel) or rank by birth (the German system). His appreciation for common soldiers was in stark contrast with Wellington's disdain of them and Blücher's detachment. France had neither the upstairs-downstairs society in Britain, nor the stultifying, self-righteous worship of duty in Prussia. Napoléon's speechifying beat Wellington and especially Blücher by miles.

Taking it all together, I think you may conclude that Napoléon's lasting importance was civil, rather than military (draw your own conclusions on how I rate the above coin issues.) Before, there were two strands of politics: conservative (royal sovereignty) and liberal (sovereignty of the people). His third way may be described as proto-nationalist (society before individual). It would take Karl Marx to provide an alternative (class justice before individual).

Peter
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: <k> on April 23, 2015, 10:21:47 AM
Nicely summed up, Figleaf. Incidentally, I understand that parts of Scottish law are based on Continental law, which is why it is separate from English law.

For me, one of Napoleon's biggest legacies is in South America. After he deposed the Spanish and Portuguese royal families, history in Latin America went into top gear, and local republics were established almost everywhere.
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: eurocoin on April 23, 2015, 08:18:44 PM
Today I received the original letter that France wrote to the Council of the European Union, it can be seen here (https://www.dropbox.com/s/k718twzh2gu4nlu/st06922.en15.PA.pdf?dl=0) (on my Dropbox account). I didn't receive any documents regarding the proposed 2 euro commemorative coin "Battle of Marignano" yet but I expect to get these soon.


Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Manfred1 on October 30, 2017, 01:28:07 PM
Since the "battle" on W.o.C was won and lost ... let us remember the fallen coin comrades ...

Nooooo don't start all over again ... close enough to WW3 as is ...

In 2015 Belgium issued the 2 Euro commemorative issue for the Anniversary of the European Flag ...

   
Title: Re: BE 2015: Waterloo
Post by: Figleaf on October 30, 2017, 01:52:03 PM
Good point, Manfred. The very strongest argument for European integration is that it was designed to stop European war and did a good job halting war between EU members. However, history occurred and there is no point hiding or denying it.

Waterloo happened. In retrospect, its importance was political, rather than military: it set the stage for a struggle between conservatism, advocating a return to absolutism, liberalism, working for constitutions that would regulate the sovereignty of the people and communism, a dogma for the poor that would turn out to be unworkable in practice. That struggle ended up in a victory for democracy and defeat of absolutism as well as a highly deplorable detour into a "dictatorship of the proletariat".

In European terms, European integration celebrates that victory of democracy over dictatorship. The EU flag is an important symbol of that victory. Meanwhile, Waterloo is a point in history. Nothing less, but also nothing more.

Peter