World of Coins

Modern European coins except the euro => UK and Ireland => Regular circulating decimal coins => Topic started by: andyg on March 18, 2014, 11:47:34 PM

Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 18, 2014, 11:47:34 PM
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73667000/jpg/_73667988_73667987.jpg)

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73668000/jpg/_73668091_392f38c6-d55e-4ff3-89ad-a8f6b8f31139.jpg)

Quote from: BBC
A new £1 coin, designed to be the "most secure in the world", is set to be introduced in 2017.

It comes amid concerns about the 30-year old coin's vulnerability to counterfeiting, with an estimated 45 million forgeries in circulation.

The new coin is based on the design of the old 3d (three penny) piece, or threepenny bit, a twelve-sided coin in circulation between 1937 and 1971.

A competition will be held to decide the image on one side of the coin.

The Royal Mint, which believes 3% of existing £1 coins are fake, said the move would increase "public confidence" in the UK's currency and reduce costs for banks and other businesses.

The announcement comes as Chancellor George Osborne prepares to deliver his fifth Budget on Wednesday.

'Iconic design'
The current £1 coin was introduced in 1983 as part of the phasing out of the one pound note, which was ultimately withdrawn five years later.

Of the 1.5 billion coins estimated to be in circulation, as many as two million counterfeit ones are removed every year.

The government said the existing coin had been in existence longer than most others and that its technology was no longer suitable to combat increasingly sophisticated counterfeiting techniques.

The proposed new coin will be roughly the same size as the current one and will be based on the once popular three pence piece that disappeared after decimalisation in the early 1970s.

As well as its unique shape, the new coin will be made in two colours and will incorporate state-of-the-art technology to ensure it can be quickly and automatically authenticated at all points.

While the Queen's head will be on the obverse side of the coin, as it is on all legal tender in the UK, the Treasury has said there will be a public competition to decide the image on the other other side.

"With advances in technology making high value coins like the £1 ever more vulnerable to counterfeiters, it's vital that we keep several paces ahead of the criminals to maintain the integrity of our currency," they said.

Adam Lawrence, the chief executive of the Royal Mint, said the process could change the way coins were made in the future.

"The current £1 coin design is now more than 30 years old and it has become increasingly vulnerable to counterfeiting over time.

"It is our aim to identify and produce a pioneering new coin which helps to reduce the opportunities for counterfeiting, helping to boost public confidence in the UK's currency in the process."

The Bank of England, which earlier this year announced that banknotes would be made out of plastic rather than cotton from 2016, said the move would "enhance the security and integrity of the currency"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26632863 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26632863)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 12:00:57 AM
Excellent idea. A bimetallic pound - give it some laser marks too, for extra security.

The report says: "The proposed new coin will be roughly the same size as the current one".  I just hope it's lighter, as the current ones are unnecessarily heavy.Well, they're not that difficult to make. Just knocked one up in my garden shed, and it looks more realistic than theirs.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 12:12:07 AM
So much for decimalisation when they're putting Roman numerals on the edge. The people who were comfortable with that stuff departed our shores around 1600 years ago.

Anyway, you'd think they'd have put 2017 as the date on the coin. Unscrupulous sellers will be using that image come 2017, claiming the coin is worth even more than the hugely rare Kew Gardens pagoda 50 pence.

And another thing, it may not be QEII on the coin in 2017, especially if Putin invades us during World War 3.

 
 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 19, 2014, 12:13:31 AM
I was wondering what the lifetime is going to be for these - will they have space for MMXVIII...?

I was also wondering why the counterfeiters have moved onto £2 coins.... !
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=15161.msg167824#msg167824 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=15161.msg167824#msg167824)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 12:16:59 AM
I was wondering why the counterfeiters have moved onto £2 coins.... !

So they can't be that difficult to make. Maybe if they added a polygonal inner rim, to make it more difficult for them.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 19, 2014, 12:29:09 AM
Given that we had steel 5p and 10p in little over 18 months - why do we need wait 3 years for these? Is it so the costs can be blamed on whoever is the next government ?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 12:37:34 AM
At the end of 1984, it was decided we needed a smaller 5p, 10p and 50p. When did we get them? 1990, 1992 and 1997 respectively.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on March 19, 2014, 06:00:47 AM
The MailOnline (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583878/1-coin-scrapped-New-version-shaped-like-old-threepenny-bit.html) added their quids-worth which is essentially the same as above, but they do say:

Quote
Its replacement will be roughly the same size with security features including bi-metallic construction, the 12-sided design and the use of iSIS – integrated Secure Identification System. This means an additive is built into coins which can be authenticated by high-speed scanners.

The technology will allow vending machines to spot fakes much more easily.

"why do we need wait 3 years for these?"

They do say its to allow time for the parking meters and slot machines to be updated to take the new coins.

Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 19, 2014, 07:16:45 AM
So UK is finally following the Euro pattern... >:D ;D

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 09:07:00 AM
Yeah, they have had bimetallic £2 coins for years ... then they learned that their euro neighbors have bi-mets as well, and stopped using them. ;D  Well, maybe not "stopped", but this explains why the £2 is not that common in circulation.

As for the new £1 coin design, I like the idea with the 12 edges. Whether the year on the edge is in Roman numerals or not, does not matter much, but changing the inscription every year may (along with other features) make it more difficult to counterfeit the coin.

It also makes sense to have "2014" on the obverse design that the Royal Mint presented. The year on a design should match the head of state at the time the design is published. What counts is the bimetallic look and the dodecagonal shape ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 10:31:50 AM
>  the Treasury has said there will be a public competition to decide the image on the other other side.

I missed that bit. It will probably end up being heraldic, to fit in with the other designs. But then we lose the "full jigsaw" - doesn't that render Dent's jigsaw pieces obsolete?  :D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 11:17:22 AM
Yes, and no. You would still have the jigsaw puzzle consisting of the six penny/pence denominations. Now if/when the 1p and 2p are phased out, that would be a different story ...

By the way, the BBC story has been updated and now shows a second image of the obverse, with a ring of pearls. Hmm.

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 11:23:36 AM
This one? The Royal Mint refers to beads, rather than pearls.

As for a reverse design, expect the Daily Mail to start a campaign for the restoration of that Greco-Roman whore, Britannia. Its hordes of reactionary readers would probably respond enthusiastically.

My first thought for a design was Stonehenge, but given that it's a small bimetallic coin (22mm in diameter, I believe), the reverse design would be rather small, unless it was allowed to spread over pill and ring. But I'd say Stonehenge still wouldn't fit, so I have no decent suggestions.

The current status of pound coin designs is that Dent's full jigsaw design appears yearly (correct me if I'm wrong), while designs for each nation also circulate concurrently - e.g. the daffodil and leek for Wales, etc.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 19, 2014, 12:16:10 PM
It looks like there is a text in micro letters on the inside slope of the edge. I also note that the Beeb says it will be made "in two colours", rather than two metals, but that may just be journalistic ignorance. More details on the competition, such as can turners participate would be welcome.

If consistency is the science of the stupid, the Daily Mail and its ilk will holler for Britannia on the new coin. ::)

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 19, 2014, 12:17:16 PM
The plethora of pound coin designs is a gift to the forger, it makes counterfeits much harder to spot.

Three versions per year (as we have at the moment) is a bit much!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 19, 2014, 12:22:49 PM
http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/news/the-new-1-pound-coin

Quote
NOTES TO EDITORS

There are many customer benefits to iSIS:

Both robust and secure, its issuance protects the reputation of a country, projecting a positive image of the nation and its economy.
It will reduce costs by replacing expensive clad and homogeneous coins with a more affordable full-plated option.
It will generate lifetime cost savings through unmatched durability, lasting up to 30 times longer than an equivalent value banknote
iSIS is not a surface coating so it will not wear off over time.

At the bottom they talk about iSIS, I'm not too sure what it is all about, but seems to be a security feature that won an innovation prize last year, and there's a lot more on this article about it.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 19, 2014, 12:33:18 PM
link (http://www.royalmint.com/business/circulating-coin/isis). The high-tech-hype-blah-smug company seems unable to produce video that actually runs on my 'puter, a low-tech MacBook Pro 2.6 Ghz with Intel HD Graphics 4000 1024MB capacity that otherwise just works.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 12:36:23 PM
Well, the government does call it "a bi-metalic construction":
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-1-coin-announced

This iSIS thing is to some extent explained here:
http://www.royalmint.com/business/circulating-coin/isis
Don't think it has much to do with the question of whether a coin has one or two "color zones". But I might be wrong. :)

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 12:39:27 PM
Peter, the videos on that page work fine here. They are just embedded YouTube videos. Maybe the Royal Mint's website is a little "busy" today. ;) Try the direct links:





Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 19, 2014, 12:59:48 PM
That helped, Christian. Thanks. However, the video's didn't help. Just marketing fluff, no content.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 01:24:35 PM
The ... umm, errr ... Daily Mail has a nice detailed view of the microtext:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/18/article-2583878-1C65E48500000578-72_634x624.jpg

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 02:31:00 PM
A couple of views of the trial reverse, from the Royal Mint video. The design depicts the Royal Mint's logo.

Now we just need to know the weight and thickness.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2014, 02:32:34 PM
And the micro-text. "ONE POUND ONE POUND".  1 + 1 = 2.  ???
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 19, 2014, 06:39:05 PM
the £2 is not that common in circulation.

I've often heard it said that £2 coins are rare in circulation, including from UK residents who are there all the time unlike you or me. My dad (in Sheffield) has also made such comments. But my experience (from when I lived there at any rate) is that they are plentiful - I used regularly to get four of them in change for a £10 note when buying lunch because there was more of a shortage of fivers. 

I think it may be a regional thing.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 19, 2014, 07:50:33 PM
I've often heard it said that £2 coins are rare in circulation, including from UK residents who are there all the time unlike you or me.

I start my day from King's Cross and buy Off-peak travel card for zones 1 & 2 for the tube from the vending machine. I put £20 note and for card costing  £8, I always get balance in 2£ coins.
For me £2 coin happens to be the most common one.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 19, 2014, 10:37:19 PM
Ah, but isn't that like saying the $1 coin is quite common in the US? ;)  Yes, my own experiences are limited of course. Maybe things change, or it does depend on where one is.

Have not found much info about iSIS by the way. But apparently that is a feature which could be built into any coin, bimetallic or "monometallic". It just makes authentication easier ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 20, 2014, 08:43:42 AM
When the 2 pound coin was first released, it was scarce at first, and at least until the Noughties, I would say. But here in London these days it circulates in profusion, and I find no difference when I visit my birth city of Newcastle. Gone are the days when I would moan about getting four heavy pound coins in change, to make holes in my pocket.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: UK Decimal + on March 20, 2014, 10:10:04 AM
Plenty of £2 coins just east of London, as evidenced by http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=26395.0 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=26395.0).

There is, however, always a shortage of £5 notes. Perhaps the £5 coins should circulate?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 20, 2014, 02:30:01 PM
Ah, but isn't that like saying the $1 coin is quite common in the US? ;) 

My experience has been that nowhere in US, vending machine will either accept or dispense $1 coin.

Have not found much info about iSIS by the way. But apparently that is a feature which could be built into any coin, bimetallic or "monometallic". It just makes authentication easier ...

All info I could get was that it is plated with three layers. The middle layer gives the coin an electromagnetic signature, which can be fine-tuned to the extent that it can used  for authentication.
Also the top most layer has higher resistance to wear and ensures that electromagnetic signature does not change with usage of the coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: @josephjk on March 20, 2014, 02:37:15 PM
My experience has been that nowhere in US, vending machine will either accept or dispense $1 coin.

Here in Texas, all the vending machines at my workplace and the ticket dispensing machines at rail stations, accept and give out dollar coins in change... that's where I get most of my coins from  ;)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 23, 2014, 06:55:14 AM
Dutch counterfeiting ring's £30m swindle behind decision to replace £1 coin

Sunday 23 March 2014

The decision to replace the £1 coin with a new design to combat counterfeiting came after police broke up an international smuggling ring that had flooded Britain with at least £30m worth of fake coins. Dutch police swooped on a supposedly legitimate mint in Amsterdam after being tipped off by British police who discovered that huge consignments of the sophisticated copies were coming in through British ports. Detectives believe that the ring, which was supplying British crime syndicates, is the largest and most sophisticated the UK has ever seen.

The revelation of the operation’s scale came as Chancellor George Osborne announced that the £1 coin was to be replaced with a 12-sided design to help deter counterfeiting.

One industry source said: “This [counterfeiting] operation has been going on since at least 2006 and it is estimated that they have been producing around £4m worth of £1 coins each year, if not more. This is certainly the biggest operation the UK has seen, both in terms of scale and sophistication.”

In November last year, the Dutch anti-fraud officers raided the premises of a firm called the European Central Mint (ECM) and arrested the owner, Patrick Onel, 49, after discovering machines capable of producing hundreds of coins per minute. A man aged 67 was also arrested on suspicion of forgery and of possessing 3kg of cannabis. The police seized a coin-pressing machine. It is understood that the Dutch authorities were warned by the UK after counterfeit coins were seized in England in 2012.

Dutch police are understood to have found machinery capable of producing the master dyes used to make £1 coins, something that has never been seen before in UK forgeries.

Italy’s elite finance police, the Guardia di Finanza, are understood to be involved in the multinational investigation. Italy is believed to be the source of up to 80 per cent of the EU’s counterfeit euro banknotes. A recent EU audit of vending machines in Naples revealed a very high percentage of counterfeit coins.

“I am not sure that the FIOD [the Dutch anti-fraud agency] realised quite what they had come across when they raided the company’s premises, such was the sophistication of the technology .... Investigators are beginning to realise that this company had widespread connections with the UK and, by implication, must have been supplying many different criminal syndicates.”

The Dutch investigation is understood to have been sparked by the discovery of a consignment of hundreds of thousands of coins delivered to a port in north-east England in 2012. It is understood the coins were destined for an organised criminal gang in another part of the UK.

Also in 2013, customs officials intercepted another large consignment of counterfeit £1 coins at a port on the south coast, suspected of coming from the same source. Officials believe that other counterfeit coins discovered in the UK in recent years have come from the same source as the two recent consignments.

Police have been stunned at the sophistication of the ECM, which is understood to have had copies of most UK £1 coins and which industry sources said matched the sophistication of the Royal Mint.

The source said: “Whenever the police authorities broke up counterfeiting rings in the UK they thought that they would cut the supply of counterfeits, but that never happened. There was a constant interception of blue barrels coming into the UK. They knew that the barrels came from Germany and they would always have a two-inch layer of washers on the top to conceal the coins. The UK authorities now know that these barrels were being used by Onel and his operation.”

In November last year, a Royal Mint survey found that the rate of counterfeit UK £1 coins in circulation had risen from 2.74 per cent to more than 3 per cent.

The Dutch authorities have been severely embarrassed by the revelation of a major counterfeit coin operation that went undetected for so long. Because ECM was supposedly a legitimate mint company, it was entitled to use the sophisticated coin-producing machines.

A spokesman for the Dutch prosecutor’s office said: “There are two suspects, a 49-year-old man and a 67-year-old man, both from Amsterdam.... The owner is also suspected of money laundering and having a gun. The investigation was triggered by information from the Dutch tax office authorities.”

In the UK, in a counterfeiting case at Shrewsbury Crown Court late last year, it was revealed that a syndicate had imported an Italian machine tool to help produce fake coins.

Source: The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/dutch-counterfeiting-rings-30m-swindle-behind-decision-to-replace-1-coin-9210251.html)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 23, 2014, 07:01:12 AM
By the way, does that also mean that Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Falkland Islands and Jersey will also switch to bimetallic £1 coin?

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 23, 2014, 07:55:03 AM
They don't have to change, but they probably will as they changed the 5 and 10p coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 23, 2014, 12:28:25 PM
Dutch counterfeiting ring's £30m swindle behind decision to replace £1 coin
(...) Source: The Independent

As for that ECM, also see this topic (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=13518.0), particularly the later posts.

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 23, 2014, 01:38:42 PM
By the way, does that also mean that Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Falkland Islands and Jersey will also switch to bimetallic £1 coin?

Aditya

The Falklands and St Helena + Ascension are sometimes a bit slower in following suit. They might be a few years behind in making the matching adjustments to their coinage.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 24, 2014, 12:43:01 AM
The MailOnline (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2583878/1-coin-scrapped-New-version-shaped-like-old-threepenny-bit.html) added their quids-worth which is essentially the same as above, but they do say:

"why do we need wait 3 years for these?"

They do say its to allow time for the parking meters and slot machines to be updated to take the new coins.

I bet they wont be too pleased about having to update their machines again  >:D, after having just done so for the steel 5p and 10p coins not too long ago !
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 24, 2014, 12:56:54 AM
By the way, does that also mean that Isle of Man, Gibraltar, Guernsey, Falkland Islands and Jersey will also switch to bimetallic £1 coin?

Aditya

I was thinking about that earlier today !  They will have to do so as well;  the thing that gives me nightmares about this new pound coin is that once they start removing the old pound coins from circulation - pound coins from Isle of Man, Jersey , Gibraltar etc will also be removed and wont be possible to get in change anymore  :'(   :'(   :'(
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 24, 2014, 10:22:12 AM
Nothing lasts for ever. But the new coins from the other territories will soon make their way to Britain.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 24, 2014, 11:59:47 PM
Nothing lasts for ever. But the new coins from the other territories will soon make their way to Britain.

So true , however I am now in a sort of arms race to find that Gibraltar Neandertal skull  pound and a Falkland islands one before its time out  ; this is were our American cousins are really lucky - they have never had coinage actively withdrawn from circulation so they can still find decades old stuff in their change  - I am sometimes envious of their situation  :-\
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 25, 2014, 12:20:29 AM
Yes, it was fun in the 1960s, when I would occasionally find Victorian veiled and bun head pennies and halfpennies. My father told me that coinage of George III still circulated in the 1930s, when he was a boy.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 25, 2014, 09:32:18 PM
Yes, it was fun in the 1960s, when I would occasionally find Victorian veiled and bun head pennies and halfpennies. My father told me that coinage of George III still circulated in the 1930s, when he was a boy.

I wish had been around back then !
What are bun head pennies ?  ;D  Do you still have them ?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 25, 2014, 09:35:26 PM
Now you mustn't wish your life away. Women sometimes put their hair in a "bun" at the back. (Do young women still use that term?) Some of the earlier coins show Victoria with a "bun".

I no longer have any. I ended up concentrating on post-WW1 coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 25, 2014, 10:00:47 PM
This is a bun penny.

In 1860 the size and composition of the bronze coins was changed (earlier they were larger and made of copper rather than bronze). The specifications remained the same through to 1971 (1960 for farthings) and thus pennies from 1860 onwards could be found in circulation right up to decimalisation.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on March 25, 2014, 10:22:35 PM
Around 1950 my father received a 1816 George III sixpence in change, this I still have.

Silver from this date was in circulation until decimalisation although rarely found this old!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 31, 2014, 07:51:23 AM
Ah, but isn't that like saying the $1 coin is quite common in the US? ;)  Yes, my own experiences are limited of course. Maybe things change, or it does depend on where one is.

Have not found much info about iSIS by the way. But apparently that is a feature which could be built into any coin, bimetallic or "monometallic". It just makes authentication easier ...

Christian

According to a two minute BBC video iSIS is a special material that can be added to the aRMour process which electroplates a 25 micro coating on coin blanks. OR
iSIS is a secret ingredient added to the alloy of the entire coin. They specifically say that it's not a coating and that "It's an ingredient that's throughout the alloy of the metal.
seethe video :Royal Mint designs 'unique' property to beat fake coins (www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-26125297)


Also see: How does the authentication in the new UK £1 coin work? (security.stackexchange.com/questions/53673/how-does-the-authentication-in-the-new-uk-1-coin-work)

To read the complete patent, see: Metallic materials with embedded luminescent particles (www.google.com/patents/US20110305919)



Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 31, 2014, 12:00:36 PM
It looks like two techniques. In one, a material (rare earth?) is added to the metal in such a way that the particles align regularly in the metal. The other involves plating, where particles (phosphor is a likely candidate) are spread over the surface of the coin (but in the metal) and can be seen under the right (UV?) light. In principle, it is also possible to apply multiple layers of plating, so that different patterns show up with wear and worn coins can be detected mechanically.

As a non-techie, I am immediately thinking of cost. The method seems energy intensive. If so, the cost of energy may make it non-viable or reduce it to a pseudo-coin gimmick in the future. Moreover, the economic damage done by forged coins is not a major issue. I'd like to see the technique applied in areas where the stakes are higher, e.g. airplane spare parts, hoping a patent wouldn't prevent that. As a coin collector, I am thinking of a great potential for new possible errors. That said (and keeping in mind that miscreants will inevitable catch up with the technique eventually), it looks like an interesting avenue to explore. It will take criminals by surprise and land some of them in prison - always satisfactory - and increase the trust people have in the coins they are using.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: davidrj on March 31, 2014, 12:37:01 PM
One wonders whether they are paving the way for a future circulating £5 coin? Coins have a much longer life than paper, though I'm not sure of the trade off with polymer notes

David
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 31, 2014, 01:34:37 PM
Back in the late 1980s, when the Royal Mint was considering changes to the coinage, it stated that it was not planning a 5 pound coin, and that we were talking a timescale during which the lower denominations became demonetised before that happened. Certainly, the penny and 2 pence coin are all but worthless now, when it is impossible to find anything to buy that costs less than 20 pence. Given the fact that a ten shilling note in the 1960s would probably buy as much as or more than 5 pounds today, a 5 pound coin would be a good idea.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 02, 2014, 02:17:24 PM
I found this question and answer on Facebook.

Paul: Will it be bigger than the current £1 coin or the same size as the old 3d coin?

The Royal Mint: Hi Paul - nothing has been finalised yet about the dimensions or spec of the new £1. The one that has been displayed is an initial prototype. How would you like it to look/what size should it be? Jo.


So the final weight, thickness and diameter have not been decided yet.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: UK Decimal + on April 03, 2014, 02:02:05 AM

My thoughts - perhaps it's time for a rethink on what coins will be needed in the near and not-so-near future.

Assuming that a £5 coin will soon be needed to replace the ever-more-scarce £5 notes, a new scale of coin weights is surely needed.

The present £5 is based on the Crown (that's 5/- or 25p depending on your age).   Because of the present dual value of apparently similar coins, the weight/size of a circulating £5 coin will have to be changed (unless the few 25p coins are treated in the same way as Maundy money and are accepted as their new (post-decimalisation) value as being £5).

We have £50, £20. £10 and £5 notes, alongside £2, £1, 50p, 20p, 10p, 5p ,2p,and 1p coins.   Are these suitable for the future?

Over to you!

Bill.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on April 03, 2014, 07:02:33 PM
I don't think the similarity between crowns and £5 coins matters. There is no way on earth that a circulating £5 coin would be the same specifications as the existing commemoratives. Both crowns and £5 coins are currently legal tender for their respective amounts without there being a legal loophole requiring sellers to accept 25p coins as £5. The existing 25p and £5 coins could continue to be theoretically legal tender alongside the new circulating coins, just as AFAIK the thick monometallic £2 coins are, and for that matter the sovereign and its half and multiples and the double-florin.

As to having a wholesale reorganisation of the coinage... Well, it's never been done before in the UK, in the sense of replacing all circulating denominations at once or within a few years of each other. Silver was replaced wholesale in 1816, copper in 1860 and 1971 but in each case the "other" metal remained more or less untouched to provide some continuity. It clearly is possible though, as demonstrated by all the countries that have adopted the euro.

The obvious starting point is to withdraw the 1p and 2p and introduce a (usable) £5 coin. Doing the former frees up a "series" of possible specifications, so it would be sensible to make the 5p and 10p copper-coloured but probably about the same size as they are now. You could then go for either round or 7-sided silver-coloured 20p and 50p coins (personally I like the 7-sided coins and it would be a shame to lose that shape), bimetallic £1 and £2 and a shaped and bimetallic £5. I don't particularly see a need to change the specifications of the banknotes. We barely need a £50 IME, never mind a £100 note.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 03, 2014, 07:17:25 PM
I like your ideas, but the current 10p is 24.5mm in diameter - way too large for its current value - compared to 18mm for the 5p. I would therefore reduce the 10p to around 21mm. Our coins are generally too large and heavy: pound coin too thick and heavy; 2 pound coin too wide. From this point of view, I prefer the euro system (shock, horror!). From the design point of view, smaller coins offer less scope, but utility and cost should take priority.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 03, 2014, 07:30:49 PM
1's and 2's, 5's and 10's; 20's and 50's can be paid in at the bank together in bags by weight, so the oddity is the current £1, which by this logic should be half £2.

<k> if we were to reduce the size of the 10p, the 5p would be really titchy, unless you plan to tell all those poor bankers that they have to employ more counters.  I guess they need to spend their profits on something though :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 03, 2014, 07:38:14 PM
<k> if we were to reduce the size of the 10p, the 5p would be really titchy

The 5p is already small, so I wouldn't change it. According to Royal Mint guidelines, a 3mm difference in diameter between similar coins is acceptable, but you mustn't go below that. Such a difference is easily discernible by sight and touch, so 18mm for the 5p and 21mm for the 10p would work perfectly.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 03, 2014, 07:44:26 PM
The 5p is already small, so I wouldn't change it. According to Royal Mint guidelines, a 3mm difference in diameter between similar coins is acceptable, but you mustn't go below that. Such a difference is easily discernible by sight and touch, so 18mm for the 5p and 21mm for the 10p would work perfectly.

It's the weight I was asking about - rather than the size, but I guess a 21mm 10p with the same weight as now would be fine if a little on the thick side!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 03, 2014, 07:47:11 PM
Double post -
https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/photos/a.658575084166813.1073741829.653092548048400/755330931157894/?type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/photos/a.658575084166813.1073741829.653092548048400/755330931157894/?type=1&theater)

spot the fake pounds (there is at least one at the bottom of the pile front left, probably another halfway up the pile at the back....

(with thanks to another forum I read :))
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 03, 2014, 07:49:04 PM
It's the weight I was asking about - rather than the size, but I guess a 21mm 10p with the same weight as now would be fine if a little on the thick side!

No, reduce its weight too. The idea that 10p should be twice the weight of 5p is outmoded, surely? Why shouldn't 5p and 10p coins get their own bags?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 03, 2014, 08:30:13 PM
For comparison, here is the euro system (ignoring the 1 and 2 cents).

Diameter, weight, edge thickness, metal.

5c    21.25mm   3.92g   1.67mm   Smooth   Copper-plated steel

10c    19.75mm   4.10g   1.93mm   Shaped edge, fine scallops   Nordic gold

20c   22.25mm   5.74g   2.14mm   Plain   Nordic gold

50c   24.25mm   7.80g   2.38mm   Shaped edge, fine scallops   Nordic gold

1 Euro   23.25mm   7.50g   2.33mm   Interrupted milled   Nickel brass; copper-nickel-plated nickel

2 Euro   25.75mm   8.50g   2.20mm   Edge lettering, fine milled   Copper-nickel; Nickel brass-plated nickel


So there is no need for our 10p to be bigger than the 1 euro coin, which is worth much more.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on April 19, 2014, 03:26:43 AM
I like your ideas, but the current 10p is 24.5mm in diameter - way too large for its current value - compared to 18mm for the 5p. I would therefore reduce the 10p to around 21mm. Our coins are generally too large and heavy: pound coin too thick and heavy; 2 pound coin too wide. From this point of view, I prefer the euro system (shock, horror!). From the design point of view, smaller coins offer less scope, but utility and cost should take priority.

I agree,the pound coin is quite fat and a real heavyweight  ::) ,hopefully they will make it go on diet with the new design . I suspect that if they tinker with the size of the 2 pound coin the 5 pound coin will be round the corner.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on April 19, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
The top coin on the rightmost pile looks doubtful also, with the edge decoration positioned ex-centrically.

Typically politician to tell you what you'll "save", not what they'll cut.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on April 20, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
(http://assets.heart.co.uk/2014/14/portsmouth-pound-coin-1397043206.jpg)

Portsmouth Bids To Feature On The New Pound Coin (http://www.heart.co.uk/southcoast/news/local/portsmouth-bids-to-feature-on-the-new-pound-coin)

Portsmouth City Council has proposed a design featuring two key features of the Hampshire city - Nelson's flagship HMS Victory and the Spinnaker Tower, a viewing tower which overlooks the Solent created as a millennium project.

The local authority is entering its design into a public competition run by the Government to decide what will feature on the coin which will have the Queen's head on the other side.

Gerald Vernon-Jackson, the Liberal Democrat leader of the council, said: "I want Portsmouth to be first off the starting blocks for this competition. We'll push for a 'Pompey pound' with a design celebrating our city.

"HMS Victory is world-famous and symbolises our amazing heritage as the home of the Royal Navy, while the Spinnaker Tower has become an iconic modern image for the whole of the south of England.

"Portsmouth has played a pivotal role in the history of this country. With two huge new aircraft carriers soon to arrive, and all the new investment coming into the city, it's entering a new era. Its significance as a city should be recognised in this way.''

The new pound will be the most secure coin in circulation in the world and the Government expects to introduce it in 2017.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 20, 2014, 02:53:17 PM
I can't see on city getting on the coin. I know they did capital cities, but they have always done representation for the 4 different countries within the UK. Going for one city would then go and annoy all the other cities.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on April 20, 2014, 03:35:19 PM
I would say Rotterdam with its glorious history as a VOC admiralty and world famous sons like admiral Piet Heyn is more deserving, because Heyn spoke Spanish. Iconic Euromast would make a good counterpoint, though, in honour of our member Paris, I could imagine Zadkine's Jan Gat doing the job also. ;) >:D

Peter
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on September 12, 2014, 04:31:25 PM
Tails, you win: Osborne invites members of the public to design the new £1 coin with image which defines Britishness

14:37 12 Sep 2014, updated 14:39 12 Sep 2014

Members of the public are being asked to design the 'tails' side of the new £1 coin in a nationwide art competition.

Chancellor George Osborne said the design will be 'in millions of people's pockets and purses' when the coin is launched in 2017.

The new coin will be the same shape as the 12-sided threepenny or 'thrupenny' bit, which was in circulation until 1971, and officials say designers claim the new coin will be the hardest to copy in the world.

Ministers say urgent action is needed to combat the number of counterfeits in circulation.

The Royal Mint estimates that an astonishing 45million £1 coins – 3 per cent of the total – are fake.

The figure is as high as 6 per cent in some parts of the UK and two million counterfeits are removed from circulation every year.

The competition to design the 'tails' side of the coin is open to anyone, irrespective of how old they are or where they are from, the Treasury said. All entries must be submitted by October 30.

Entrants are being asked to 'show what Britain or 'Britishness' means, drawing on all of the qualities and quirks that make our nation unique'.

Mr Osborne said: 'Today we're asking people across the UK to help us design the new £1 coin.

'Think about your favourite landmark, or a great British achievement or a symbol from our Islands' Story.

'The winning design will be in millions of people's pockets and purses. It'll be heads you win; tails, it's your design.'

The £1 coin has been in use since 1983 – much longer than the normal life cycle for legal tender of its value – and 1.5billion were in circulation as of March 2013.

The outdated technology used to make the coin leaves it vulnerable to sophisticated counterfeiters.

Its replacement will be roughly the same size with security features including bi-metallic construction, the 12-sided design and the use of iSIS – integrated Secure Identification System. This means an additive is built into coins which can be authenticated by high-speed scanners.

The technology will allow vending machines to spot fakes much more easily.

The competition is open to anyone who wishes to enter, irrespective of how old they are or where they are from, the Treasury said. All entries must be submitted by October 30.

According to the rules of the competition, the denomination 'one pound' must appear as part of the overall design but it is left up to the designer precisely where this is placed.

Designs must not include a recognisable likeness of a known person, whether living or dead and designs must be the entrant's own work.

Artworks can be submitted in pencil, ink, paint or using computer drawing or design software, but three dimensional entries cannot be entered. All designs need to be presented on a template which can be downloaded from the Royal Mail's website.

People can enter more than one design if they wish, provided the entry is completed on the template, alongside a unique reference code which will be used to track the entry.

Giving tips to inspire competition entrants on its website, the Mint says designs should 'symbolise the UK in a clear and unambiguous way'.

It says: 'Whatever you choose as your inspiration, it must be readily understood to represent Britain.

'Think of symbols, heraldry, words, aspects of the natural world, man-made structures such as buildings and monuments, British achievements, whether social, political or cultural, and British institutions.'

Source: Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753592/Tails-win-Osborne-invites-members-public-design-new-1-coin-image-defines-Britishness.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on September 12, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
Government’s ‘design your own £1 competition’ backfires spectacularly

By Mark Molloy
1:12PM BST 12 Sep 2014

A competition to give one lucky person the chance to put their design on the new £1 coin has been hijacked by Twitter pranksters.

The official Twitter account for Number 10 asked its followers what design they would put on the new £1 coin.
They received dozens of humorous replies featuring photoshopped images of coins including Mr Blobby, Alex Salmond and Batman.

All entries must be submitted by 30 October, with the winning coin to enter general circulation by 2017.

We’re not sure it’s what Chancellor George Osborne had in mind when he asked people to “think about their favourite landmark, great British achievement or a symbol from our Islands’ story”.

He added: "The winning design will be in millions of people’s pockets and purses. It’ll be heads you win; tails, it’s your design."

Source: Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/georgeosborne/11092088/Government-1-coin-design-competition-backfires-spectacularly.html)

(Click on the link to see the funny designs :D)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on September 12, 2014, 04:44:45 PM
Here's Royal Mint's information about the design competition:

http://www.royalmint.com/newonepoundcoin

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 13, 2014, 07:35:24 AM
"Successful coinage designs commonly feature emblems or symbols and are often heraldic in their inspiration."

This is in their tips, I think this is what they might want.......
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on September 13, 2014, 09:50:24 PM
When was the last time a British king was seen in a harness? Will they ever get over heraldry?

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 14, 2014, 02:35:19 AM
I've been thinking about it. They want some image, small enough for this coin, that represents Britain.

So it can't be a person, it can't be a building because any building is going to be in one of the 4 countries, and not be considered a part of just Britain. It can't be landscape.

What units all parts of Britain? Not much to be honest. Either you have 4 images on the coin or you have heraldry which, by its very nature, has 4 images (with Wales being represented by England, weirdly), or, you have a map of Britain. Or you have writing.

It's probably going to be a design that doesn't particularly inspire. I'd have thought they'd go for 4-5 designs like previously, but no.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on September 14, 2014, 11:06:44 PM
What I like about the design contest is that it is basically open to anybody. People from the UK are invited to participate, but so is everybody else, regardless of "passport" or age. Also, I think it makes sense to have one design for the new coin - others may still come later ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on September 14, 2014, 11:19:22 PM
What units all parts of Britain? Not much to be honest.

How about the language? Couldn't you do something with a Saxon the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorn_(letter)) (now usually written ye) and a modern typeface THE? I know, Celtic, but it lives on mostly in Ireland and in Welsh road signs. (ducking)

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 15, 2014, 02:22:27 AM
Problem is Saxon isn't British, it's only English, so it wouldn't go down well. Celtic could work as it was all over, though picking one thing, Boudicca was English Celtic, and is a personage.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on September 15, 2014, 06:00:52 AM
Zinc: World running out and shortage hits pound in your pocket

14 SEPTEMBER 2014

Prices for the rust-resistant metal zinc soared to a three-year high last week as exhausted mines across the world close, but it is with the pound in our pocket that we are likely to feel the soaring cost most acutely.

One and two-pound coins are made up of as much as 25 per cent zinc and analysts are predicting the Royal Mint may have to follow the example of the US Mint and take cost-cutting measures.

The news that zinc prices had spiked on Monday came only days before Chancellor George Osborne launched a competition to create an image that will be emblazoned on the “tails” side of the £1 coin.

He said in this year’s Budget that the Royal Mint would manufacture a new £1 coin to reduce counterfeiting, but some analysts fear that when it enters circulation in 2017 it could be valuable for its metal content rather than its nominal monetary value.

Stephen Briggs, a senior metals analyst at BNP Paribas, said the market for the metal shows no signs of slowing down. He said, “Longer term I see metal prices stabilising higher – much higher – than where they are now. You could actually have a situation where the metal content of the coin is worth more than the value.”

The Royal Mint does not release data on how much each coin costs to manufacture, citing “commercial interests”. The Royal Mint is unlikely to be losing money,  according to numismatist Paul Davies.

He said: “This [refusal to comment] may not be because they are losing money. They’re always in competition with other mints from around the world. They don’t like giving other mints an angle on what they make big profits on. They’re unlikely to be losing money.”

Nonetheless zinc prices have risen by 17 per cent so far this year and production is expected to fall short of demand later this year for the first time since 2007, according to Goldman Sachs.

Mr Briggs puts this shortage down to the closure of “two or three larger” zinc mines, including the “huge” Century mine in Australia, which was “almost five times larger than anything new coming online today”. Next year the supply of zinc is set to be reduced further, with predicted falls of up to 7 per cent in production.

Zinc supplies are partly running low due to the soaring global car market, which takes up vast quantities of the metal to produce galvanised steel.

It is a similar story in the rebounding global property development industry.

The US Mint has already been forced to reduce manufacturing costs to counter higher prices for zinc, which makes up 97.5 per cent of each 1 cent coin it produces. The issue is tougher for steelmakers; they use about half the world’s yearly zinc supply.

Zinc isn’t just used for the pound in our pockets or in steel-based products; it is used in everything from tyres to face creams. Major cosmetic brands say there are no plans for price rises, but Amanda McGillivray of the Natural Skincare Company is worried. She said: “This will have an impact on how much zinc manufacturers put into their sunscreens, as the prices are bound to rise. Already zinc oxide is very expensive, and this is why the mainstream suncare brands use chemical sunscreens instead, which we believe are harmful to the body.”

Even without the negative impacts on skincare products, Mr Briggs warned it isn’t time to start collecting pennies just yet. “It is illegal to melt down your coins,” he said.

Source: Belfast Telegraph (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/zinc-world-running-out-and-shortage-hits-pound-in-your-pocket-30586642.html)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 19, 2014, 10:27:09 PM
Well, looks like the competition is still on because Scotland said no. It would have been difficult to have Britishness when you couldn't include a part of Britain.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on September 20, 2014, 12:36:50 AM
One and two-pound coins are made up of as much as 25 per cent zinc and analysts are predicting the Royal Mint may have to follow the example of the US Mint and take cost-cutting measures.

Summon should tell the Belfast Telegraph that the US cent is made from Zinc and costs more than a cent to make....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on September 20, 2014, 02:03:07 AM
Hype. Zinc is one of the cheapest metals in the world and so is the derivative zinc oxide. A metric ton (1000 kg) of food grade zinc oxide costs from $800 to $1300 fob, depending on the size of the order. Contents vary, but a gram of zinc oxide would have a purchase price of $0.0008 to $0.0013. You can play with those numbers, let the price double or quadruple overnight and find that the effect on the price of foodstuff (primarily breakfast cereals) and medical stuff (primarily sun screens) is affected only in extreme circumstances. I bet the major price component for both is advertising.

Sure, it's different for coins, but if a metal becomes cheap, rather then extremely cheap, either there will be a replacement metal (tin comes to mind) or the difference is marginal.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on September 20, 2014, 05:06:33 AM
I found I had great difficulty getting things galvanised because of the steep rise in the price of zinc and a new price estimate had to be given each time. This would have been five or six years ago as I retired four years ago.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on September 20, 2014, 10:35:21 AM
When was the last time a British king was seen in a harness?

The last king to die in Battle was Richard III.


One and two-pound coins are made up of as much as 25 per cent zinc


Perhaps still thinking of old mono metallic 2 Pounds. 2 Pounds is bimetallic for quite some time now and the core is Copper Nickel.

Rise in Zinc price could expedite the demise of old 1 Pound coin. The competition for new design will be over by end Oct. Only if they can finalise the design and get Her Majesty's approval, the new 1 Pound could be out in first quarter of 2015 instead of 2017.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on September 20, 2014, 02:13:40 PM
The last king of anywhere in what is now the British Isles to lead his troops in battle was George II, at the Battle of Dettingen. Still quite a long time ago but considerably more recently than Richard III. He may also be the last monarch to serve in front line forces (whether while king or before) - I'm not sure about that. Queen Elizabeth II got about as close to doing so as a woman could during WW2 and served in the ATS.

And James IV of Scotland died in battle at Flodden in 1513 - he, not Richard, was the last king of anywhere in Britain to die in battle.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 20, 2014, 02:24:47 PM
George V was extremely daring, he broke some part of his lower body in the trenches, while monarch, though he was just having a look around.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on September 20, 2014, 03:34:27 PM
Dettingen is a rather doubtful example. George was king of Britain, but also of Hannover. At Dettingen, he acted in his capacity as king of Hannover. This is clearly evidenced by George's decision-making, always with the position of Hannover in mind, bringing him into conflict with lord Stair, his chief of staff, as well as the Austrian commander, count Arenberg. Moreover, the troops in his command were overwhelmingly professional, trained and hardened Hanoverians, reinforced by equally good rented Hessians. By contrast, the British troops were inexperienced and undisciplined. They did more damage to the civilian population than to the enemy. Their horses were unbroken to the point that the king, as well as Cumberland were thrown off their horse.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on September 30, 2014, 11:34:45 PM
Just got an e-mail from the mint to tell me this contest has started, only 2 weeks after they announced it.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RabensteinK on November 01, 2014, 12:10:15 AM
The contest finished last night, with just under 13,000 copies of the entry form downloaded. That might result in perhaps 8,000 submissions (for comparison, Matthew Dent's in 2005 was one of 5,000 submissions received). Such numbers will require a fair amount of time whittling down to 10 finalists for the shortlist - although I agree that for reasons of both tradition and not letting the pence coins "hang in the air" the Royal Shield is virtually certain to be retained in some form or fashion. If this prediction is correct, than at least half of the submissions will go straight in the bin on that count only. Britannia and St. George cannot really be featured (although theoretically allowed by the rules) since they would infringe on major commercial interests of the Mint.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RabensteinK on November 01, 2014, 12:38:02 AM
What strikes me as sad is that the proposed 12-sided rim - especially if featuring alternating milled and inscribed faces with the latter only giving the minting year - pretty much precludes further use of the rim for meaningful inscriptions as we used to have (preferably in English rather than Latin given that we are well into the 21st century). I did use the 12 small "counterscarp" surfaces surrounding the "gold" ring for inscriptions, but these can really only be read comfortably with a magnifying glass ...
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on November 01, 2014, 12:59:38 AM
One of your posts I merged/moved here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,29117.msg187102.html#msg187102). Seems that some World of Coins members submitted designs. :) Great!

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on November 01, 2014, 09:36:50 AM
I disagree that it will only be the royal shield. The one good thing about such a competition is that the number of ideas that come through should be enough that the design could be anything really.

I did a few flag based designs, though it was hard with the Northern Irish flag which doesn't actually have an official one. I also did some flower based designs too and map based designs. But yes, the royal shield appeared in various guises, generally cut up, moved around or something like that.

I don't think St. George could go on the coin. He's the patron saint of everywhere in the world but Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. So, it would be considered English, not British. I was going to do a Britannia design, but what I wanted to do I found difficult due to copyright issues, I just found a photo that I thought would be perfect for such a design, and tried to make it my own but couldn't and gave up.

So, I'm hoping they choose something that is interesting, if after such a competition they have a rubbish design, it'd be such a waste. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: UK Decimal + on December 01, 2014, 12:10:09 PM

Thinking ahead, perhaps now railway rolling-stock inspectors will be able to retire their trusty 3d.

The 3d is still used today to test a coach for "rough riding".   If it will stand on-edge diagonally to the direction of travel, the general quality of ride is acceptable.   Stood longitudinally, it tests lateral motion, and stood laterally it tests for excessive longitudinal movement known as surging.

If I travel any distance by rail, I carry a 3d with me.

Similar success with the new £1 remains to be tested.

Bill.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 01, 2014, 01:13:48 PM
The edges of the proposed new coin are either milled or lettered.
It may not be as stable as old 3d.
However, trains of current era are supposed to be giving smoother ride so we should have more stringent test.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on December 20, 2014, 11:21:04 AM
Interestingly the new £1 coins, dated 2017, will apparently not have a new portrait of QEII. ;)  This is an image from the World Money Fair catalog (WMF 2015); I condensed the ad a little by moving the two coin images closer together ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 20, 2014, 12:04:01 PM
I had a dream last night that they announced the new portrait and then she died before it could be put on coins!
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 20, 2014, 12:05:04 PM
I had a dream last night that they announced the new portrait and then she died before it could be put on coins!

 >:D >:D >:D

That's so cruel! It seems to me that you want her to die early?!?!? Any particular reason?

 ;D ;D ;D

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 20, 2014, 12:17:35 PM
Interestingly the new £1 coins, dated 2017, will apparently not have a new portrait of QEII. ;)  This is an image from the World Money Fair catalog (WMF 2015); I condensed the ad a little by moving the two coin images closer together ...

Christian

I noticed that too, very poor ad in comparison to the ads of the other mints  :-X
The changeover to the new 1 pound coins has nothing to do with 2015 so they should better have presented their new commemoratives for 2015..
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 20, 2014, 12:25:23 PM
>:D >:D >:D

That's so cruel! It seems to me that you want her to die early?!?!? Any particular reason?

 ;D ;D ;D

Aditya

No, it was more from the point of view of someone spends all their effort designing a coin, being happy they got it, then bang, all down the drain because someone didn't have the decency to stay alive.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on December 20, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
No, it was more from the point of view of someone spends all their effort designing a coin, being happy they got it, then bang, all down the drain because someone didn't have the decency to stay alive.

We did have a similar situation back in 1937 when Edward VIII abdicated leaving the Royal mint with dozens of wasted coin types on their hands, both homeland types and colonial. However it has created a lot of interest which continues unabated even today.

See Re: King Edward VIII : His Place in Numismatics (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,12573.msg85124.html#msg85124)

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: kena on December 20, 2014, 11:53:00 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/queen-elizabeth-II/11299022/Bookies-suspend-betting-on-Queen-announcing-abdication-in-Christmas-broadcast.html

Seems that someone bet £200 that the Queen would step down during this year's Christmas message.......
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 21, 2014, 12:07:32 AM
Well if she were going to abdicate, she wouldn't do it this year I think. Though she's not going to, because of Edward.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: kena on December 21, 2014, 12:12:36 AM
I don't think so either.

What is a worry to me is how long will she live or serve as Queen if Prince Philip dies before her.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 21, 2014, 03:11:46 PM
No, it was more from the point of view of someone spends all their effort designing a coin, being happy they got it, then bang, all down the drain.

The design competition is only for the reverse and winning design will be used anyway.
The obverse effigy is already being redesigned .

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 21, 2014, 03:15:47 PM
As far as I know there's a limited competition for designing the new queen's head. It doesn't involve "members of the public" but possibly those in the mint and a few other usual freelancers like David Cornell who are sculptors (or sculptures depending on how your predictive text wants to do it) and get asked to do jobs like this.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 21, 2014, 09:35:08 PM
The limited design competition is for circulation coins to be issued in 2015 as a new effigy is proposed.
They same will also be used on 1 Pound bimetallic coin which is expected in 2017 if Her Majesty is still the reigning monarch.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 18, 2015, 04:16:22 AM
Here's the winning design: (Source: Royal Mint's twitter page)

We all know how obverse looks like ;)

Aditya
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 18, 2015, 06:15:09 AM
I really like the design. Very nice! 8)

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 18, 2015, 09:49:37 AM
Stick in the mud, but I guess that's what they want. I grinned about the Lancaster (or York) rose branch growing out of the leek and wondered where the oak leaves in the centre are coming from.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 18, 2015, 10:23:50 AM
Stick in the mud, but I guess that's what they want. I grinned about the Lancaster (or York) rose branch growing out of the leek and wondered where the oak leaves in the centre are coming from.

Peter

I'd assume the "Oak leaves" are actually thistle leaves.

(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607998551634215445&pid=15.1&P=0)

Here are some thistle leaves, can't find a picture with the head of the thistle as well.

Yeah, the design is very traditional, which after the Dent series of coins seems to be going backwards a bit.

Also using "flowers" like this was always going to be a bit disjointed. Why use a leek and not a daffodil? Having the Irish clover sticking out from one side as if it really doesn't belong could potentially be quite difficult if someone decides they don't like it in Northern Ireland.

I think the design works. It's not bad, it's not "wow" either. It does the job. I guess when it's small a lot of the issues will disappear.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 18, 2015, 10:39:18 AM
.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 18, 2015, 10:43:37 AM
Yeah, based on the design..... reminds me of the cheesy poofs episode of South Park when Cartman wins a competition to sing the cheesy poofs song on the advert. When the ad comes out, he sings that last second and the rest is replaced by a real singer.  >:D

Though I'm sure the design was the kid's but they merely modified a few drawing issues.

I had one design that used these, but with a daffodil instead of a leek, but I have no idea how to put up pictures from my computer, so you'll never get to see it.  ;D
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 18, 2015, 11:06:39 AM
Royal Mint now has more details about the coin:

http://www.royalmint.com/newonepoundcoin

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 18, 2015, 11:16:53 AM
And here it is. Designed by 15-year-old David Pearce of Walsall, it depicts the emblems of the four nations. A traditional theme but in a modern form, more free-flowing than usual. I like it! He might have been tempted to do a more symmetrical design, such as appeared on the old sixpence, but I'm glad he didn't.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 18, 2015, 06:28:10 PM
I grinned about the Lancaster (or York) rose branch growing out of the leek

It's a Tudor double rose, the whole point of which is that it is a combination of both Lancaster and York (not that Henry VII had the legitimacy of either!).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 18, 2015, 07:53:53 PM
Indeed (http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-real-monarch). If Cecily Neville's second child, Edward IV, was illegitimate, Henry VII was a usurper, let alone Henry VIII.

Yes, the Tudor rose is a safe assumption, even if we can't know the colours.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on March 18, 2015, 10:48:59 PM
A wonderful design.  Congrats to this young man for designing a very important coin that will probably be seen by collectors and the public for time immemorial.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 21, 2015, 01:04:53 AM
Does anyone know when and if Crown dependencies and Overseas territories will change their pound coins and what designs they will use ?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 21, 2015, 11:38:59 AM
Does anyone know when and if Crown dependencies and Overseas territories will change their pound coins and what designs they will use ?

No news yet, but the members here will pick it up pretty quickly, once it's out. Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man and Gibraltar usually introduce changes at the same time as the UK. The Falklands and St Helena+Ascension sometimes take a few years to follow our changes. The Crown Dependencies, as I understand, still issue pound notes and prefer them to the coins. Certainly when I visited Jersey and Guernsey between 1999 and 2001, that was definitely the case, and most pound coins in circulation were from the UK. I had to visit the banks to get myself some 2 pound coins.

My topic The Decimal Coins of the Sterling Area (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,12289.0.html) gives links to topics on each of these dependencies and territories, so you can see how well or otherwise they have matched the UK's numismatic changes.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 21, 2015, 02:54:21 PM
The smaller dependencies like the Falklands and St H & A don't issue circulation coins in every denomination every year. They won't change the existing coins just because the UK does but will wait until they next need to issue £1 coins, which may or may not be in 2017.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 24, 2015, 12:16:56 AM
A photo of a prototype. Looks good.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 24, 2015, 03:49:59 AM
Looks really beautiful.
Why do we have to wait till 2017 to get it?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 24, 2015, 01:30:34 PM
No designers initials are shown, and after having seen the guy's drawing, I think that is right.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 24, 2015, 07:02:33 PM
Looks really beautiful.
Why do we have to wait till 2017 to get it?

Because it's not just a new design, it's a whole new specification. The cash handling and vending industries will have to be prepared before the new coin is actually put into circulation.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Miner on March 24, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
which will have a diameter of the coin?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 24, 2015, 10:16:40 PM
No designers initials are shown, and after having seen the guy's drawing, I think that is right.

Where did you see the drawing?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 25, 2015, 04:05:34 AM
Because it's not just a new design, it's a whole new specification. The cash handling and vending industries will have to be prepared before the new coin is actually put into circulation.
In that case, physical specifications would have been frozen and specimen tokens given to the vending machine manufacturers by now, if not long back. The concerned authorities are yet to decide the size and weight, leave alone the magnetic signatures. The height of bureaucracy indeed :-)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on March 25, 2015, 09:52:30 AM
A new image of the coin via http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/newissues.html

Sooooo beautiful!

 ;)

PD: Can someone attach de imagen file? I don't know why I can't do it...:S

(http://www.worldbcnews.com/gallery/europe/uk/objetos/1p17.png)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 25, 2015, 01:38:28 PM
A new image of the coin via http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/newissues.html

When did the Royal mint authorise worldbcnews to change the legend.
The first post on this thread shows year at the bottom.
This image shows it at the top, which is patently wrong.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 25, 2015, 01:58:39 PM
When did the Royal mint authorise worldbcnews to change the legend.
The first post on this thread shows year at the bottom.
This image shows it at the top, which is patently wrong.

The first image is what the coin would have looked like had they not changed the portrait. The new portrait, 2015 onwards, will have the date at the top/

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03216/Mint_The-Queens-fi_3216506b.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 25, 2015, 02:17:21 PM
Is it true for smaller coins too?
The set for 2015 with new effigy is already available.
Has anyone seen or bought it?
The Royal mint site shows only a tiny image.
The original legend with"F.D." also appears to have been expanded.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 27, 2015, 06:43:29 PM
Is it true for smaller coins too?
The set for 2015 with new effigy is already available.
Has anyone seen or bought it?
The Royal mint site shows only a tiny image.
The original legend with"F.D." also appears to have been expanded.
I've got this set, and yes, the new portrait is present on all eight denominations, as is the same inscription starting top right (as opposed to bottom left as previously): Elizabeth II Dei Gra Reg Fid Def.  The £1 in 2017 will, without doubt, have this inscription.

I like the design chosen.  It reminds me a bit of the floral designs used 1984 to 1992 (especially the leek one of 1985 and 1990).  And I definitely do like the 12-sided bi-metal specification. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 28, 2015, 12:54:23 AM
Thanks.
I got the confirmation by p.m. from another friend and have posted the update on World coin news.
<k> can update the new series thread now.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 28, 2015, 01:32:42 PM
As has already been said, it will be interesting to see how the Matthew Dent designs fare with this change to the £1.  The £1 was supposed to unite the rest of the coins by having the complete design on it.  It's not going to happen as it's much too soon, but I'd like to see the Dent designs go.  As a gimmick it was fine, but it soon wore off.  I really don't like the orientation of the 50p, and it hasn't been repeated on any commemorative 50p produced since.  It fits the design better, yes, but it looks wrong.

With 5p and 10p coins bearing the Christopher Ironside designs gradually disappearing (due to the recovery of cupro-nickel coins - as if they're really worth much!) I'm starting to wish they would bring those designs back.  Maybe I'm just old and don't like change.  I was born in 1971 so decimal coins with the Ironside designs are what I grew up with. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Candy on March 29, 2015, 07:06:03 PM

With 5p and 10p coins bearing the Christopher Ironside designs gradually disappearing (due to the recovery of cupro-nickel coins - as if they're really worth much!) I'm starting to wish they would bring those designs back.   

I am also starting to miss those cupro-nickel 5p and 10p`s  especially those 1992 10p coins ,    there was something wholesome and appealing about them .
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on June 03, 2015, 01:44:19 AM
Because it's not just a new design, it's a whole new specification. The cash handling and vending industries will have to be prepared before the new coin is actually put into circulation.

Many people are now aware that the Royal Mint will issue a brand new twelve sided, bi-metallic type of one pound coin in 2017.

But did you know that samples will be issued to token issuing companies later this summer?   ::) 

...shades of the Edward VIII threepenny issue of 1937!  8)

Source (http://tokensupply.co.uk/?page_id=812)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on June 03, 2015, 01:56:20 AM
...shades of the Edward VIII threepenny issue of 1937!  8)

So the Queen is going to abdicate?  :o
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on June 03, 2015, 02:29:28 AM
In 1937 samples were also handed out and some of these were never returned.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on June 03, 2015, 04:54:19 AM

But did you know that samples will be issued to token issuing companies later this summer?   ::) 


That was the news I was waiting for.
Can some one easily get hold of a token?
So far, the Royal mint has not given much information about size, thickness and weight.
A token will make that known.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on June 03, 2015, 05:52:57 AM
There is an enquiries phone number given at the link I provided, the email address can be found too, or perhaps use the contact form. The owner of the site is himself a coin collector.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on October 02, 2015, 06:21:41 PM
I have attached some photos of one of the early trial strikes. The trial strike in the photos below was recently stolen from The Royal Mint and has been offered for sale to multiple British coin dealers.

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m93/eurocoins/12140635_10153198556903030_8689956912718903225_n_zpsdaqzofoz.jpg)

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m93/eurocoins/12079629_10153198557328030_1873666448081182561_n_zpsl5jvhlfd.jpg)

© Christopher Henry Perkins
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on October 03, 2015, 04:38:53 AM
So trial pieces are ready for distribution.
The vending machine manufacturers association was told that they would be given sample pieces two years before introduction of the coin, so that they can design the testing and do the calibration.

Now the size and weight can officially be known since that has not been declared so far.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on October 03, 2015, 08:53:15 AM
The diameter is 22.5 mm so the same as the current 1 pound coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on October 03, 2015, 11:59:20 AM
Looks almost round after all.

Thanks for the pictures and the news :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 03, 2015, 03:13:32 PM
Looks almost round after all.
Yes, I was thinking that.  The border is 12-sided but the actual edge is almost round.  I'm surprised the Royal Mint aren't selling the trial pieces to collectors for about £50 each. ;)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on October 03, 2015, 05:02:05 PM
Perhaps, the actual coin will use polygonal blank.
Wonder if to retain the weight, diameter (?) of polygonal coin might be slightly more by a fraction of centimetre.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 16, 2015, 09:20:23 PM
The £1 coin is in the news again.  BBC News reported it in their bulletins on TV today.  The "news" is that the last round £1 coins will be struck by the end of the month.  The 2016 "last round pound" design was seen. Presumably all the coins required for circulation next year, plus those required for sets and the precious metal editions, are all being struck before the year actually starts.

It's a non-news item really. 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-3362810/Last-batch-round-1-coins-set-roll-presses-month.html
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on December 16, 2015, 09:26:39 PM
Disappointing to see a spelling mistake in a headline, what is the world coming to?

Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 25, 2015, 12:47:37 PM
Royal Mint posted a photo of last dies used for last pound coins on twitter. Perhaps Royal Mint is more sentimental about them than common people and collectors... ;)

Aditya
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 28, 2015, 05:28:23 AM
Investment advisers are back! ::)

Savers to cash in on old round £1 coins before they are replaced by new model in 2017

06:00, 27 DEC 2015
BY NORMAN SILVESTER

SAVERS have been told they should hold on to their old round £1 coins before they are replaced by a new model.

The traditional round coin, first minted in 1983, will be replaced by a 12-sided version in 2017.

However Rob Brannagan, of Ayr-based Scotmint, says many of the small pound coins issued in the last 22 years have increased in value by up to 600 per cent.

Special limited edition coins which were proofed with silver, gold or platinum are now worth anything between £450 and £595.

Rob is urging people to check their pockets, drawers or backs of sofas for pound coins and to check their value online. He added: “There have been more than 200 different types of one pound coins issued since 1983.

“There are ones with the Forth Bridge, Scottish thistle and Scottish lion as a motif on the back.

“There are others with the Menai Bridge, English oak and Royal arms. There are also coins which are part of a city series and feature Edinburgh, London, Cardiff or Belfast.

“It really depends on their condition and how many were minted at the time.

“The coins which have the greatest value are ones which were also issued by the Royal Mint in collectable packages of four and, therefore, are in the best condition. People should also keep any shiny new ones which have been recently issued as they could be of value in years to come after they have passed out of circulation.”

Pound coins with a Scottish feature such as the Forth Bridge – of which 39million were minted in 2004 – are already worth £4.

The highest value £1 coin is a 2009 limited gold-proofed version worth £595.

Rob, who has more than 30 years’ experience in the coin collecting trade, says interest in coin collecting has never been greater.

He added: “Most of our trade now is online and we buy and sell from people from all over the world.

“There is far more value in coins than in old notes.”

Last week, the last pound coin rolled off the presses at the Royal Mint in Llantrisant, Wales.

Source: Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/savers-cash-old-round-1-7074986)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on December 28, 2015, 09:11:37 AM
The usual blubbering nonsense. You don't find proof gold and silver coins in circulation. There is no market price for them, only anecdotes based on coincidences. If there are many types, that has no influence on price, etc. etc. Generic journalists hate facts.

Peter
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 28, 2015, 09:15:29 AM
Can we (I don't literally mean 'we'!) sue them in (British( court, for misguiding readers? I know it's not worth the time and money invested, just want to know if this is a punishable offence...

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 28, 2015, 10:30:38 AM
I very much doubt it.

Lying, or otherwise obfuscating the truth, is not a criminal offence except in certain narrow circumstances, such as when you are giving evidence under oath or sign a declaration confirming that what you have said/written is true (e.g. when you submit your tax declaration). Journalism isn't covered.

Lying can lead to civil proceedings (e.g. for libel or slander) and I guess you can sue someone for loss resulting from acting in good faith on information that was deliberately false or incompetently wrong to an unreasonable degree. But in these cases you have to demonstrate loss. If you already know that the contents of the article is codswallop, you can't act wrongly on the poor information in good faith.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on December 28, 2015, 11:48:54 AM
So we are going right through 2016, without any new pound coins being issued into circulation? What will fill the gap?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 28, 2015, 12:44:47 PM
No.
The round pound with new effigy and standard circulation reverse ( shield) was not minted in 2015 but 2016 dated pieces are being minted from second week of December 2015.
The full anticipated demand of Pound coin for 2016 will be minted that way.

Rest assured, Round Pound coins will not be in short supply.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on December 28, 2015, 03:07:39 PM
Thank you, Pabitra.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 28, 2015, 03:19:45 PM
You are welcome <k>
See

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/dec/17/royal-mint-presses-last-batch-round-pound-coins

Do not miss the video
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 28, 2015, 03:21:21 PM
Royal mint earlier announced that there are to be no 2016 pound coins issued.
Demand should be met from existing (2015 dated) stock.

http://blog.changechecker.org/2015/12/17/why-you-wont-be-finding-any-2016-1-coins-in-your-change/ (http://blog.changechecker.org/2015/12/17/why-you-wont-be-finding-any-2016-1-coins-in-your-change/)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on December 28, 2015, 03:34:04 PM
So, two different views from the members. At least I got my 2015 pound in change, a day before Xmas. The lion and the unicorn were often seen on biscuit tins, etc., up to the mid-1960s, so I have a certain affection  for them.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 28, 2015, 03:56:38 PM
So, two different views from the members. At least I got my 2015 pound in change, a day before Xmas. The lion and the unicorn were often seen on biscuit tins, etc., up to the mid-1960s, so I have a certain affection  for them.

The cause is conflicting messages from the mint.
Last year, they announced the commemoratives for 2015 would have the new portrait (with the exception of the £2 released in Belfast) - then through their blog they said the commemoratives would have the old portrait - but they stuck to what they said in the original announcement. I think they cause confusion via the social media they put out, which it seems can sometimes be just plain wrong.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on December 28, 2015, 04:07:47 PM
In other words, drama shall continue to unfold in 2016.
Surely, 2016 shall be part of interesting times ahead.
We may get both four animals pound and coat of arms shield pound.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 28, 2015, 06:42:22 PM
No the mint has been very clear, there will be no 2016 dated round 1 pound coins for circulation. They have posted a photo of the very last round one pound coin that has been minted for circulation on their Facebook page.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 28, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
Are we really supposed to believe that the "four animals" £1 is only going to be issued in sets?  If so, it will be more rare than the Kew Gardens 50p!  My guess is that, as with the two new portrait versions this year, it will be the new design that is issued, with the "shield" version only being issued in sets.

If there really aren't going to be any 2016-dated £1 coins issued for circulation, we should all be buying up the 2016 sets, wait for the media to get wind of the new £1 coin design's rarity and then start selling them at at least a 200% profit on eBay...
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 28, 2015, 09:04:14 PM
There won't be any 2016 dated round 1 pound coins for circulation. Previously the Completer Medal was the only coin of the Coin Hunt Folder that had to be bought from the Royal Mint. Which was a big success as no one wanted an empty slot in their folder. Royal Mint has now replaced that completer medal in the new Coin Hunt Folders with a 1 pound coin that can only be bought from them. There are enough 1 pound coins in circulation so there is no need to mint 1 pound coins for circulation in 2016.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: kena on December 28, 2015, 09:25:44 PM
It is interesting the following set has two difference 1 pound coins in it:

http://www.royalmint.com/shop/The_2016_United_Kingdom_Collector_Proof_Set

Rather disappointing that neither will be release for circulation and that there will never be a new portrait pound coin with the Royal Sheidl reverse.

So it is only 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 (old portait) that the Royal Shield set can be completed from circulation.   2013 is a bit of challenge to complete from circulation due to the lower mintage 1 pound and 50 pence for that year with the Royal Shield reverse.

The Royal Mint is not helping themselves in attracting and keeping young collectors since a few i know stopped when they could not get the sets from circulation for each year from 2008.

They seem to forget that these young collectors will be the ones buying coins from them in the future as they get older.

Ken
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 28, 2015, 09:36:19 PM
Well I think this decision isn't that strange at all. First of all they make a nice amount of money from the sales of 1 pound coins for the Coin Hunt Folders (More people will decide to complete their folder if it's a coin they have to buy rather than a medal). Secondly the round 1 pound coins will be withdrawn from circulation gradually starting in 2017. So coins they mint in 2016 will than again be withdrawn in 2017 which makes no sense, for sure if there are enough coins in circulation already.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 28, 2015, 09:59:15 PM
So it is only 2008, 2012, 2013, 2014, and 2015 (old portait) that the Royal Shield set can be completed from circulation.   2013 is a bit of challenge to complete from circulation due to the lower mintage 1 pound and 50 pence for that year with the Royal Shield reverse.

It's only in recent times that the mint has issued each denomination for each year.
The year I started collecting, 1986, we only had new 1p, 2p and £1 coins to watch out for....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: kena on December 28, 2015, 10:06:46 PM
Under the same logic, the Royal Arms 1 pound that was made in the 2nd half of 2015 did not have to be made as well since by that time they knew the 1 pound was changing in 2017.

Was there a shortage 1 pound coins going into 2015 that required two different pound coins for 2015?

According to the mint, as of March 31st 2014, there were 1,553 million pound coins in circulation.

The mint made a big deal about completing the Royal Shield set from circulation, so it would have been nice for them to follow thru on that.  Did we really need so many different Olympic 50 pence coin designs?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 28, 2015, 10:42:44 PM
It's only in recent times that the mint has issued each denomination for each year.
The year I started collecting, 1986, we only had new 1p, 2p and £1 coins to watch out for....
Yes, only from 2000 onwards has every denomination been issued for circulation each year (though even since then, some standard shield versions of the 50p weren't issued).  Prior to 2000, there were only five years in the decimal era where all denominations were issued, these being 1977, 1979, 1980, 1992 and 1997 (1992 was a difficult one as only 109,000 commemorative 50p coins were issued).

The now over-priced year sets are worth getting again because of the possibility of coins not being issued for circulation.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 29, 2015, 12:40:53 AM
The numpties were all over ebay when the mint announced that they were only going to issue 100 £2 WWI with the old portrait for circulation, for a while prices went up - but the mint just made more ;D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 29, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
Not sure if previous coin re-issues are relevant to this one, but prior to decimalisation in 1971, the last pre-decimal coins were dated 1967 (but still produced after that year).

5p coins dated 1989 were issued for circulation despite the new smaller version having completely replaced them by the end of 1990.

There was a surplus of both 10p and 50p coins prior to their reissues in 1992 and 1997 respectively. The last large size 10p coins were dated 1981 and the last major large 50p issue was dated 1983 (with a small 1985 issue and commemorative issues in 1992 and 1994).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 29, 2015, 07:31:29 PM
Between 1986 and 1992 I only ever did find one 10p dated 1981.....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 31, 2015, 10:56:31 PM
Between 1986 and 1992 I only ever did find one 10p dated 1981.....
I got a couple of circulated 1981 10p coins off eBay a few years ago. Even these are fairly rare compared to the proof versions.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 02, 2016, 03:55:31 PM
The Falkland Islands are currently considering the issuance of a new 1 pound coin in 2017.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on March 02, 2016, 05:45:24 PM
The Falkland Islands are currently considering the issuance of a new 1 pound coin in 2017.

The same as Gibraltar. It is not oficial, but I was in the rock the last friday asking some people in the Post Office about the new 1 pound coin, they told me that the coin must have the same characteristics than the British one, and consequently, the coin will change too.


Jostein  :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 02, 2016, 09:31:29 PM
I assume that it is a foregone conclusion that all British territories will sooner or later follow the new design pound coin. It is because of the statutes / laws which specify the coins to be of same shape and size. The delay would be due to logistics. In other words, other nations like Isle of Man, Guernsey, Jesey Islands etc. too would do that over a period of time.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 02, 2016, 09:38:51 PM
The Falklands were slow with other issues, but even if it takes eight years, they will fall into line, as will the five other users of the pound.  Jersey, Guernsey, Isle of Man and Gibraltar will do so at the same or similar time due to their close proximity to the UK and popularity as tourist destinations.  The Falklands and St Helena-Ascension may take longer as both presumably have far fewer visitors from the UK due to their remoteness.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 17, 2016, 03:45:55 PM
I contacted all the territories Treasuries towards the end of last year and the only one to bother getting back to me was Guernsey who have no plans to adopt/change the £1 coin as counterfeiting/forgery of it isn't a problem on the island, and the islanders prefer the £1 note anyway !!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 17, 2016, 06:23:25 PM
^^ That's extremely naive of Guernsey to say counterfeiting/forgery isn't a problem there.  Of course it is!  The vast majority of £1 coins in circulation there are from the UK, and they're almost as plentiful as they are here, and some of those will be forgeries.  What they mean is that it isn't their problem as presumably they return these £1 coins to the UK at intervals, and the UK therefore bears the cost of the forgeries.  Without any doubt there will be forged coins being circulated there at any one time.

I still find it quite bizarre that they all seem to be saying they have no plans to issue it.  As users of the pound (be it sterling or not), their coins are produced to the exact same specifications as the UK ones.  Re-sizing and new coins were all adopted by each of the six territories so that they all currently have all eight denominations.  To say they aren't going to issue this one is ludicrous.  When the UK pound coin ceases to be legal tender here, it will do so in the Crown dependencies and Gibraltar too.  It can't not!  UK visitors to these territories will take new UK £1 coins with them and they will freely circulate.  It would be impossible to have a system where two types of the same denomination run alongside each other indefinitely.

Guernsey has had semi-regular issues of all eight denominations in this century so far.  2003, 2006 and most recently 2012.  When they next do this, what will they do?  Issue seven denominations?  Eight, with the old round pound?  Of course not, they'll issue the new one!  It just might be a few years away, that's all.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 17, 2016, 06:33:38 PM
But Alan, why not? Remember this:

"all small and large UK coins circulated alongside small and large Falkland Islands coins from 1998 until 2001."

See here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,11489.msg218815.html#msg218815).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 17, 2016, 09:20:20 PM
Yes, I did see that.  However, the Falklands are more remote.  They don't have mass numbers of visitors from the UK and they also have a small population.  Why would Guernsey, Jersey, Isle of Man or Gibraltar not issue the new coin when they've issued all other new coins at the same time as the UK?  As users of the £1 note, would they really want two types of £1 coin circulating?  And with no more of the old style coins coming over from the UK, surely it would just be easier to ship them all back to the UK for melting down, forgeries and all?

I've never actually seen a Guernsey £1 coin in circulation in the island.  I have seen Jersey ones, but all the ones I have from Guernsey came from the states treasury, sets or eBay.  They issue the coin to make up the numbers (as is also the case with the £2 coin).  It just seems inconceivable that they won't issue this one, even if it doesn't actually circulate.

On my first visit to Guernsey after getting into collecting, in 1998, I called in at the Treasury and asked for examples of the latest issues of each denomination.  The £1 was the 1983 issue!  Any since then have been issued in very small numbers to circulation, if at all, so it's not like it would cost them very much to introduce their own version.  They haven't done mint sets since 2003, but they've issued £1 coins in 2006 and 2012 in order to have a complete issue of denominations for those years.  Unless they're not going to do that again, at some point the new £1 must appear.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 17, 2016, 09:40:14 PM
The crown dependencies and Gibraltar are sometimes a little slow to follow numismatic developments in the UK (and sometimes ahead of us - e.g. as regards dropping the half penny and the "NEW" in "NEW PENCE" on the coin legends - though that doesn't apply to all these territories). And they do things differently there - at least in the crown dependencies, where they still prefer the pound note to using one and two pound coins. But that's part of their charm. There may be some logic to what you say, but they will no doubt do things at their own pace.  ;)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 18, 2016, 12:24:36 AM
I think the problem with some of the territories adopting the new coin is quite simply they can't..unless they commission the Royal Mint to start producing their coinage again.
The new coin is supposedly full of Royal Mint patented anti-counterfeiting ISIS technology (Yeah, seriously, I bet whoever named that is kicking themselves now) but only some territories have the RM make their coins...
Of course the non-RM ones could issue their own bi-metallic coins of the same size and weight but the composition (electronic signature) would never match.

Am I correct in saying the IOM won't accept mainland coins ? If so there'll be a steep drop in the amount of pound coins they'll need to produce every year as (Up here in the North East) there are always IOMs kicking about, in fact the past 2 or 3 years running I've received that years new IOM £1 coin before the UK £1.

Incidentally... slight tangent (Might have been noted earlier?)... has anyone else noticed on the proclamation for the new pound coin it doesn't actually say it's bi-metallic ??

Quote
A new coin of nickel-brass of the denomination of one pound shall be made, being a coin of a standard weight (including the nickel plate) of 8.75 grammes, a standard diameter of 23.03 millimetres, being twelve sided in shape and having joined concentric inner and outer sections, with a standard composition (excluding the nickel plate) of seventy-six per centum copper, four per centum nickel and twenty per centum zinc.

Seems like it's made in 2 sections, much the same as the £2 but using the same alloy, just nickel plated in the centre  ??? ???
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 18, 2016, 12:52:17 AM
Jersey/Guernsey/St Helena and Falklands still use the Royal Mint.

Pobjoy (Isle of Man) source their blanks from the Royal Mint but strike them themselves, so maybe they could do this with the pounds as well?

Tower Mint (Gibraltar) I know less about.

(as an aside I find more Manx pound coins here on the Mainland than I ever did in the Isle of Man!)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 18, 2016, 04:42:04 AM
Quote from: RED link=topic=26382.msg2

Incidentally... slight tangent (Might have been noted earlier?)... has anyone else noticed on the proclamation for the new pound coin it doesn't actually say it's bi-metallic ??

Seems like it's made in 2 sections, much the same as the £2 but using the same alloy, just nickel plated in the centre  ??? ???


Then why do you need to make two sections and join them,
 As in "having joined concentric inner and outer sections,".
Surely, there must be some reasons.

2 Pounds is classified as bimetallic.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 18, 2016, 07:29:46 PM
I must have missed the details of the specifications of the new coin being announced.  Interesting that the new coin is 8.75 grammes, so 0.75 grammes lighter than the current coin, but its diameter is 0.53mm more.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on March 18, 2016, 10:12:05 PM
I must have missed the details of the specifications of the new coin being announced.  Interesting that the new coin is 8.75 grammes, so 0.75 grammes lighter than the current coin, but its diameter is 0.53mm more.

Thats mean a thinner coin than the actual one ;)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 19, 2016, 12:20:12 AM
^ Or that the metals used are very slightly lighter.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on March 19, 2016, 12:44:36 AM
With the thinner planchet, ever so slightly larger diameter and, of course, the new 12-sided shape, I would imagine the current round pounds will be recalled and demonetized similar to the original decimal five-, ten- and fifty pence.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 19, 2016, 01:15:42 AM
I'd expect a period where they're both in circulation. How many 1 pound coins are needed in circulation compared to the capacity of the mint to make 1 pound coins?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on March 19, 2016, 01:28:22 AM
Looking at mintage figures in the Standard Catalog of World Coins, over 800 million round pounds were issued in 1983-1985.  I would say that possibly a similar number may be needed to bring in the new 12-sided coin and then begin the process of withdrawing the older coins over the following five years.  There may be a desire to accelerate the round pound withdrawal process due to the counterfeiting issue.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on March 19, 2016, 09:51:18 AM
Interesting that the new coin is 8.75 grammes, so 0.75 grammes lighter than the current coin, but its diameter is 0.53mm more.

I've always felt that the pound coin is way too heavy. It was worse before the two pound coin came, because you used to get four pound coins in change from a five pound note. Too many of those was bound to make holes in your pocket. But only a 0.75g reduction is minimal, leaving the coin still too heavy, especially for its much reduced value since 1983.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 19, 2016, 10:05:55 AM
I'd expect a period where they're both in circulation. How many 1 pound coins are needed in circulation compared to the capacity of the mint to make 1 pound coins?

Quite apart from that, you need a period during which people can use up the old ones, and many people will only realise there's a change (and a deadline) when they start to actually see the new ones in use. IIRC six months to a year has been the norm in the UK. In Sweden we will have nearly a year, but the change involves all but one denomination of notes and coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 19, 2016, 11:41:18 AM
The changeover periods were six and a half months for the 1d and 3d, nearly seven months for the large 5p, nine months for the large 10p and six months for the large 50p, so I would imagine something similar for this one.  Always wondered why the large 10p was longer than any of the others.  The new one was issued on 30/9/92 and the old one didn't cease to be legal tender until after 30/6/93.

The sixpence had the longest one of all, at over nine years, but had no replacement and was kept as a sweetener for those against decimalisation.  I never saw one in change, though I was only eight in June 1980!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 19, 2016, 11:51:59 AM
The consultation paper (Which can be found HERE (https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/specification-of-the-new-one-pound-coin)) suggested a 6 month cross-over period, as cash handling/counting businesses will incur extra expense ??? during this time. I don't think any official times have been decided upon yet.

As for the actual coin specs, here is the comparison of old to new.

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz222/FAKEQUIDS/ASSD%20FORUM%20PICS%20ETC/newquidvoldquid.png)

and here is concept image, concept coin and the produced trial coins.

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz222/FAKEQUIDS/ASSD%20FORUM%20PICS%20ETC/Concepts-VS-reality.jpg)

Notice how the real coins will be much rounder than the concept image & coin, they obviously forgot about the vending machines/coin mechs when designing it !! lol
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 19, 2016, 11:54:37 AM
Perhaps the changeover period has a direct link with intrinsic value of alloy which can be recovered by melting?

It could be number in circulation too.

The details of number of that coins issued and received back could be analysed too.

New Zealand was one country who gave exact data as to how many pieces never got returned.
Lost or collected by numismatists are some of the alternative states where those pieces must have gone.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 19, 2016, 11:59:17 AM
Any coin with seven or more sided is considered round enough to roll down the chute in vending machines.

It can not afford to be very  round since the year is to be minted on the alternate edges.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 19, 2016, 01:16:04 PM
I wonder what "homogeneous non-ferrous inner" means?  Steel?  I'd have thought they could spare some cupro-nickel for such a high value coin?  The 50p still uses it.

The weight, 8.61g, is a bit awkward.  All new coins issued from the 20p onwards in 1982 have had nice rounded weights to either a full gramme or half (the 5p at 3.25 grammes was the only exception, but still better than .61 of a gramme!)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 19, 2016, 01:27:46 PM
I am quite excited about the new £1 coin... In my lifetime, the longest there's been in changes to the coinage from 1971 to 1998 was 11 years (the 20p in 1982).  By the time this £1 is issued it will be 20 years since the last new coin (the circulation £2 was introduced in 1997, although didn't enter circulation until 1998).  Personally I'm glad to see the back of the old coin.  Apart from the nice shiny new ones, the pound is the ugliest coin in circulation.  It wears badly and of course there are so many forgeries.

I really hope they do take this opportunity to redress the balance and get the £2 out there, so that the maximum number of £1 coins you'll get in change is one, with others being £2.  A handful of £1 coins is something I hope becomes a thing of the past.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 19, 2016, 02:55:37 PM
The weight, 8.61g, is a bit awkward.  All new coins issued from the 20p onwards in 1982 have had nice rounded weights to either a full gramme or half (the 5p at 3.25 grammes was the only exception, but still better than .61 of a gramme!)

You would think that it would have been logical for the £1 to be half the £2 weight so that they could be bagged and sorted together....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 19, 2016, 03:38:05 PM
With the £2 being 12g, 6g for the £1 would be too light... Lighter than the 2p, 10p and 50p.  There's only the 1p & 2p, 5p & 10p that still have the weight-value relationship.  Even the old, commemorative single metal £2 wasn't the weight of two £2 coins, and the 50p has never weighed exactly two and a half 20p coins.  Not really sure why they kept it going for the small 5p and 10p really.  The 5p could have done with being a big bigger, and the 10p smaller.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 19, 2016, 05:00:26 PM
I wonder what "homogeneous non-ferrous inner" means?  Steel?  I'd have thought they could spare some cupro-nickel for such a high value coin?  The 50p still uses it.

Steel is not non-ferrous  ;)

I suspect that "homogeneous non-ferrous inner" means precisely cupro-nickel,  just as for the pill of the 1 euro coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 20, 2016, 12:36:04 AM
"Ferrous" isn't exactly an everyday word though is it? Looking on Wikipedia, it looks like "ferrous" suggests an iron compound.  As steel is an alloy that includes iron, then yes, you're right.  But if it's going to be cupro-nickel, why don't they just say that?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 20, 2016, 09:34:22 AM
why don't they just say that?

That question has been asked of many official pronouncements for centuries. In this case, either because they felt like using unnecessarily obscure language for kicks, or because the alloy will definitely not be ferrous but is otherwise not wholly decided - thereby they avoid having to give chapter and verse on what it actually contains.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 20, 2016, 12:41:28 PM
But reply #176 already indicated

"with a standard composition (excluding the nickel plate) of seventy-six per centum copper, four per centum nickel and twenty per centum zinc"

Which is Nickel Brass.

It is only Copper Nickel with 20% Nickel replaced by Zinc.
No Iron at all.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 20, 2016, 12:45:27 PM
^ That says "excluding the nickel plate" - it wouldn't be pure nickel.  I suppose it's an indication that it will be cupro-nickel though.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 20, 2016, 12:56:37 PM
The nickel plating is on the core since nickel brass is yellow in colour.
To give it bimetallic look, the core is nickel plated, which gives the silver or white colour to core.
Then the core is stamped in to ring and then this blank is struck.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 20, 2016, 01:03:08 PM
I think the wording of both the stats and the proclamation are vague because of the ISIS technology used... they don't want to give anything away they don't have to !!.

I could be wrong, but I recall it being mentioned somewhere that the central disc will be a sandwich of layered metals, done in such a way that it'll give a very unique magnetic signature.

Unfortunately the trial coins are too collectable (& if past trial coins are anything to go by the mint will want them back, or charge a fee) for anyone to have sliced one open and have a look (As far as I know) so the true extent of any layering etc won't be known until someone does it with a real coin once they're out there.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 20, 2016, 05:22:15 PM
Is there any way of getting hold of a trial piece?  I imagine the Mint will eventually sell them off at £50 each...
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 20, 2016, 06:25:06 PM
If you know some vending machines manufacturer,  you might be able to get one.
Sample pieces were given to vending machines makers, one year before the introduction of non-round pound, as was promised to them.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 20, 2016, 07:11:38 PM
They were sent out around November 2015 iirc.
I know the request form for samples was sent out on 5th October 2015, I never even bothered trying to blag it, as the questions on the form were quite specific,
business details, sector, specific details about the machines etc the business used & operated.
I do know they cost £1 each, but am unsure if the mint want them back at the end (The 1997 £2 coin was £10 to keep)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 21, 2016, 12:02:25 AM
If you can manage to find out the list of companies who got them from the mint, may be some of them are finished with their use. In other words, the mechanism in the machine to accept the new pound has been designed and they are now in the phase of implementing that in the machines in the field.
They may be willing to sell a piece or two.
Would be interesting to get a pound coin trial piece in hand and study it.

Why would mint want them back?
Cost of getting them back and keeping account of inventory would more than offset the value it may realise later.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 23, 2016, 05:20:58 PM
I just called with a manager from The Royal Mint who is in charge of the new 1 pound coin project. He told me that the vending machine manufacturers did have to pay an amount of money for the trial pieces, depending on the quantity they needed. The trial pieces remain the property of The Royal Mint. At present The Royal Mint has no plans to sell the returned trial pieces. The Royal Mint is not willing to disclose any information regarding the number of trial pieces they have minted.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: RED on March 23, 2016, 09:04:33 PM
wow.. they're being very strict with these trial coins.

I've just received a copy of the 12 pages of Terms and Conditions sent out with the trial coins, outlining the fact they must be returned to the mint in tamper-evident bags via courier at the end of the trial phase, the testing and information gained from it must be submitted to the mint within 48hrs of them asking for it ("in order for it to better understand the work conducted by the Contractor and any beneficial information that can be further utilised for the introduction of the new £1 coin.") they cannot be lent to any third party, cannot be damaged or disassembled, cannot be microscopically examined to determine the structure, composition or method of manufacture etc etc etc etc

Bang goes my chances of getting one :(

(FYI in terms of numbers, my source who shall remain anonymous, has analysed 1000 trial pieces.. so there's plenty out there!!)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on March 23, 2016, 09:46:32 PM
AFAIK all the trial coins sent out over the years remain the property of the mint - even the 1937 threepence coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 24, 2016, 03:47:57 AM
But were they returned back to the mint after the trial or just notionally remain the property of the mint?

I am sure, mint will not be storing them. They must have been recycled.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 24, 2016, 07:39:13 PM
I think the wording of both the stats and the proclamation are vague because of the ISIS technology used... they don't want to give anything away they don't have to !!.

I could be wrong, but I recall it being mentioned somewhere that the central disc will be a sandwich of layered metals, done in such a way that it'll give a very unique magnetic signature.

The new 1 pound coins consist of several layers of metal mixed with luminescent particles, so that they can be detected for security purpose.  :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on March 24, 2016, 07:53:36 PM
Glow in the dark particles?  Sounds like collecting stamps! ;D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 26, 2016, 08:43:44 PM
Glow in the dark particles?  Sounds like collecting stamps! ;D

I believe they can only be detected with laser  ;)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on March 26, 2016, 10:05:44 PM
or perhaps black-light  8)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on March 31, 2016, 06:54:34 AM
Production has started today.
See

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/production-begins-on-new-12sided-1-coin-34586552.html


http://www.thenational.scot/business/new-12-sided-1-coin-goes-into-production.15726

For security features
See

http://www.mirror.co.uk/money/6-tiny-details-reveal-how-7658367

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12207818/Customers-face-confusion-over-new-1-coin-during-six-month-crossover.html


Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 31, 2016, 08:44:39 AM
Surprising that it is going to get a latent image :o. All other secutity features were already known I guess.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 31, 2016, 06:35:55 PM
My quibble here, having just seen the obverse design on the BBC News website, is why does the date have to be upside down?!  Having finally, in 2015, standardised the obverse inscription so it's the same format on all eight denominations, this one completely messes that up by running "2016.ELIZABETH II.D.G.REG.F.D" from bottom left instead of top right.  Other than that it looks OK.  I'm assuming the use of the 2016 date is purely for media purposes and the actual coins currently being produced read 2017.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on March 31, 2016, 07:35:58 PM
The Daily Mirror article linked to above says:

Quote
The old £1 coin may have been smooth, but the new £1 coin will have milled edges - grooves in the side of the coin.

Er, what? All existing UK-standard £1 coins have a milled edge AFAIK, also with a variety of other features depending on date and issuing authority (some from the dependencies do not have lettered edges and some have alternating milled and smooth sections).

I wonder too how they intend to accommodate the date in Roman numerals on the edge in coming years. Unless there is rampant inflation or the UK joins the euro, the new-format coins will still be in production in 2028, or MMXXVIII and potentially even in 2038, which in Roman numerals needs twice the space of the example given (2014, MMXIV).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 31, 2016, 08:14:26 PM
^ I'm assuming it means grooves like the 5p and 10p have but can't tell.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 01, 2016, 03:10:48 AM
My quibble here, having just seen the obverse design on the BBC News website, is why does the date have to be upside down?!  Having finally, in 2015, standardised the obverse inscription so it's the same format on all eight denominations, this one completely messes that up by running "2016.ELIZABETH II.D.G.REG.F.D" from bottom left instead of top right.  Other than that it looks OK.  I'm assuming the use of the 2016 date is purely for media purposes and the actual coins currently being produced read 2017.

The Royal Mint put the date they were minted, minting has started, so the first coins should be 2016.

Remember the Olympic 50s coming out with 2011 on them, but in 2010?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 01, 2016, 04:32:12 AM
If the date put is 2016 then why not release them now.
If the date put is 2017 then why delay the issue till March 2027.

Why should the Royal mint stockpile billions of them?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on April 01, 2016, 04:49:36 AM
Didn't something similar occur with delays when the new bimetallic two-pound coin was issued in 1997-1998?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 01, 2016, 06:31:51 AM
Yes, it happened and also happens in many other countries too.

I am yet to understand the reason.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 01, 2016, 10:26:16 AM
The mint can't release them now because they won't work in the vending machines. They'll release them when the vending machine industry has been given enough time to sort out what needs to be sorted out.

They can't put 2017 on the coins because the coins are being made in 2016, so by law have to 2016. However the mint has clearly decided, and probably rightly, that you make loads of coins, have a small get to know the coins campaign just before millions of them hit the streets.

Basically everyone knows what's happening, the consumers, those who will use the coins for business and then the coins will not just come in drips and drabs, but in a big rush that makes it easier to put into place.

Similar to the Euro, a 6 month overlap period, coins minted and ready to go.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on April 01, 2016, 10:36:40 AM
^^ I don't think there is such a law, quite the opposite in fact.  In all previous new coin issues (1968, 1969, 1971, 1982, 1983, 1990, 1992 and 1997) the coins were issued with that year's date, even though they must have been produced before then.  1971-dated 1p and 2p coins, for instance, were available in those blue wallet packs in 1968.  Nowadays, year sets are available in the December before the year starts, and the Olympic 50p coins were actually issued into circulation in 2010, despite being dated 2011.

The exception was the £2 coin, but that was meant to have been issued into circulation in 1997 but because of technical problems was delayed until 1998.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 01, 2016, 10:56:29 AM
Yeah, I suppose you're right, the Olympic 50ps came out in 2010 with 2011 written on them.

I'd suppose that they have to apply to Parliament for the exact specifics of a coin, and then if they decide to change then they have to use the dates that have already been agreed to.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on April 01, 2016, 11:20:47 AM
If I'm not wrong, Irish Central Bank puts Irish coins (except the commemorative €2 coins) dated X in circulation in year X+1 or X+2. It's a common practice for them.

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 01, 2016, 11:40:44 AM
I remember one such case was introduction of 10 Rupees bimetallic coins in India about 10-12 years back. The mint started making them but Ministry of Finance had some internal bureaucratic delays. It was only in the next year, the green signal was given. It was then that Reserve Bank of India issued a press release.
As per law in India, the press release marks the beginning of issue of a legal tender.
Therefore, in numismatic circles, the coins minted with previous year dates were declared patterns.

I understand that in United Kingdom, the definition of legal tender has been a bit controversial in recent times.

The coins need not wait for vending machine industry.
EU has coins of 1, 2 and 5 Eurocents, which do not get accepted by most of the vending machines.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on April 01, 2016, 11:46:20 AM
I remember one such case was introduction of 10 Rupees bimetallic coins in India about 10-12 yea s back. The mint started making them but Ministry of Finance had some internal bureaucratic delays. It was only in the next year, the green signal was given. It was then that Reserve Bank of India issued a press release.
As per law in India, the press release marks the beginning of issue of a legal tender.
Therefore, in numismatic circles, the coins minted with previous year dates were declared patterns.

That's correct. Those bimetallics were produced in 2004-2005 but were put into circulation in 2009. I know a person who paid a six digit amount for so called pattern in 2007/2008 which was later available for ₹15-₹20.... :o >:D ;D

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on April 01, 2016, 06:46:01 PM
The coins need not wait for vending machine industry.
EU has coins of 1, 2 and 5 Eurocents, which do not get accepted by most of the vending machines.

1c, 2c and 5c coins aren't accepted by vending machines because they are not useful in the context. New £1 coins do need to be accepted from as soon as they become widespread in use - they are fundamental to the public's use of vending machines.

AFAIK there is nothing stopping the Royal Mint either striking coins in 2016 bearing a different date, or not releasing 2016-dated coins until a later point. Both have happened in the past - as Alan mentioned, the decimal coppers were struck, and available in sets, from 1968 onwards but with the date 1971. At the same period, predecimal coins were still struck after 1967 but all with the frozen date 1967 apart from the 1970 proofs.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 04, 2016, 05:03:07 PM
In the meantime, The Royal Mint has decided to no longer use the term iSIS (Integrated Secure Identification Systems) for their high tech counterfeit security.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 05, 2016, 03:26:01 PM
While I know there has already been linked to them, I will also add the images of the new 1 pound coin to the topic. The designers initials of David Pearce have now been included on the reverse as well as a latent image on the obverse. The reverse design was enhanced and modelled by Royal Mint artist David Lawrence. The obverse depicts the fifth effigy of Queen Elizabeth II by Jody Clark.

Click on the images for an enlargement. 

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m93/eurocoins/20162_zpsaz17n3vv.jpg) (https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/ae2349f5091ba09b849def0e2547855361d1d201/0_0_2400_2400/master/2400.jpg?w=1920&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=97a37c83dbeffa69eef7b65c2acbcbfd)      (http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m93/eurocoins/20161_zpsbwkhqiux.jpg) (https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/76083ac56c9c2d060064856902d2b59d61b8bff5/0_0_1890_1890/master/1890.jpg?w=1920&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=ab204d2ff23dc4c765b374fc7ec8a1e5)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 05, 2016, 04:13:14 PM
What happened to micro engraving on the inside edge of the polygonal coin sides which were to ensure that it is most secure coin?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 05, 2016, 04:22:44 PM
What happened to micro engraving on the inside edge of the polygonal coin sides which were to ensure that it is most secure coin?

Indeed interesting to see that the micro engraving has been left out, well spotted! Though it was not only the micro-engraving that made the coin the most secure coin in the world. Micro engraving has already been used on circulating coins of another country (Aruba) for the last decade. It was mainly the combination of security features that made it the most secure coin in the world.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on April 05, 2016, 04:58:41 PM
Thanks for the pictures Niels...the coin looks almost completely round.  ::)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: SandyGuyUK on April 05, 2016, 06:16:22 PM
Indeed interesting to see that the micro engraving has been left out, well spotted! Though it was not only the micro-engraving that made the coin the most secure coin in the world. Micro engraving has already been used on circulating coins of another country (Aruba) for the last decade. It was mainly the combination of security features that made it the most secure coin in the world.
I'm wondering if the micro engraving may still be there but that the edges are more "vertical" than they were originally intended to be.

If you look at the large photos that have now been added to this post, it *does* look like there is some sort of dots on the inside of the rim and I'm wondering if this may be lettering.

What do others think?

Ian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 05, 2016, 06:33:21 PM
I'm wondering if the micro engraving may still be there but that the edges are more "vertical" than they were originally intended to be.

If you look at the large photos that have now been added to this post, it *does* look like there is some sort of dots on the inside of the rim and I'm wondering if this may be lettering.

What do others think?

Ian

I think you are right but it is indeed very different from the original image.  :o
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 05, 2016, 07:08:52 PM
Yes, nothing is certain till the actual coin is in hand.
An image can never replicate the look and feel of an actual minted piece.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on April 05, 2016, 10:42:49 PM
They are different types of images so it's difficult to compare, but at present I prefer the 2014 trial version.  The top and bottom of the 2014 one are straight edges rather than points (albeit rounded ones), and the twelve sides are more pronounced.  Making the coin more rounded is a bad idea in my opinion.  Also, I was no fan of the Jody Clark portrait anyway, but this seems to confirm that the Rank-Broadley was by far the superior image and didn't really need changing.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 08, 2016, 06:07:16 PM
The new 1 pound coins consist of several layers of metal mixed with luminescent particles, so that they can be detected for security purpose.  :)

(http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m93/eurocoins/particles_zpsrzf4zwny.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on April 08, 2016, 07:30:18 PM
They look like little "bits" of metal.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on April 09, 2016, 04:44:37 AM
The security measures are classified by two qualities - cost of incorporating and ease of detection.

On second basis, it appears that this security measure would need a device to test genuineness of the coin. Such measures are usually not very successful in attaining their main objective.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 26, 2016, 09:02:14 PM
The 1 pound coin may be the most counterfeit coin in the UK, there are currently also very high quality forgeries of 20p, 50p and 2 pounds coins in circulation.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: africancoins on April 26, 2016, 11:17:46 PM
I have yet to see any of these...

>>also very high quality forgeries of 20p, 50p<<
>>in circulation<<

in circulation....  yet I have likely seen about one fake 1 Pound coin per month over the past 10 or so years (and a few pieces in some months)...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on April 27, 2016, 10:47:28 PM
To be sure, I am not in the UK much these days. But I too have never come across a fake 20p or 50p. No fake £2 in the wild, either, though I do have one of these which was in a job lot I got from eBay.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 27, 2016, 11:03:31 PM
There are some rather good fakes of the undated 20p plus all the recent two pound coins available from a website in China, but these are aimed at defrauding collectors mainly.

From change, plenty of fake pounds and just two fake two pounds. I've not seen a fake 50p since the size was reduced and have never found a fake 20p.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: davidrj on April 28, 2016, 03:59:23 PM
But I too have never come across a fake 20p

This one from change looks like copper with a white metal coating

(http://i593.photobucket.com/albums/tt14/microtome/dodgy20p.jpg) (http://s593.photobucket.com/user/microtome/media/dodgy20p.jpg.html)

David
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 03, 2016, 09:41:26 PM
The Royal Mint charges companies that don't return the trial strike an astonishing amount of 80p. I think we no longer need to wonder why so many of these trial strikes are now part of coin collections  :-X
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on August 15, 2016, 07:20:21 PM
Hi. Pay attention to this images    :o:

(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/b.jpg)
(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/a.jpg)


(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/d.jpg)
(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/c.jpg)


(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/e.jpg)
(http://www.worldbcnews.com/newissues/objetos/f.jpg)



Looks that there are too much metal in the inner part of some coins that made a flange or elevation. I hope this is resolved.

What do you think?  ???
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on August 15, 2016, 10:26:43 PM
That looks bad, I doubt they have done anything about this as the coin is already in mass production for quite some time.   :o
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on August 15, 2016, 10:36:18 PM
That looks bad, I doubt they have done anything about this as the coin is already in mass production for quite some time.   :o

I agree, but it is not worthy of the Royal Mint... :-X
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on August 16, 2016, 12:19:24 PM
Nice photograph, Jostein.

So finally the year now appears at near bottom on obverse, unlike other general circulation coins of new effigy series.

Left hand does not know what the right hand is doing :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: SandyGuyUK on August 16, 2016, 01:10:45 PM
For me - it's interesting to see on those photos that the micro-lettering does indeed appear to be on the design but the edge legend (including the date - however was THAT supposed to work?!?!) does not!

I'll be interested to see how they look "in the flesh" when March comes...

Ian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on August 23, 2016, 12:59:34 PM
Very interesting discovery indeed, but this date in roman numerals on the edge was a bad idea anyway (as has been pointed out in this thread earlier here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg220632.html#msg220632)). It was also already left out in the official proclamation of February 12 that can be seen here (https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2478986).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on August 23, 2016, 07:46:42 PM
So finally the year now appears at near bottom on obverse, unlike other general circulation coins of new effigy series.

Left hand does not know what the right hand is doing :)
I agree.  It's completely unnecessary.  They could have had Elizabeth II on the right-hand side, then the security device where it is, then the D.G.REG.F.D.2016 which would closely resemble where they appear on other coins with the new portrait.  It really does seem like the Royal Mint now makes it up as it goes along.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on October 31, 2016, 05:48:03 AM
Recently it was brought to my attention that the micro lettering on the obverse is different from the one on the reverse. Today the Royal Mint has announced that the obverse will have ONE POUND · ONE POUND on each of the 12 sides and the reverse will have -2017- on each of the 12 sides. The date can be seen 13 times on the coin and the denomination 26 times.

Earlier the Royal Mint had only released images of the new 1 pound coin on which the micro lettering was removed with photoshop.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 31, 2016, 08:34:00 AM
So, even though the coins we've seen so far all appear to carry the 2016 date, common sense has prevailed and the circulation coins will actually be dated 2017?

And "nickel-plated" inner, like the 5p and 10p, even though the 50p is still cupro-nickel?  Is cupro-nickel really such a valuable commodity that it can't be used in a high-value coin?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on October 31, 2016, 11:33:10 PM
AFAIK all the trial coins sent out over the years remain the property of the mint - even the 1937 threepence coins.

As I wrote upthread - the trials remain property of the mint who are actively stopping sale of any that appear on the market and demanding they are returned to the mint....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on November 01, 2016, 12:44:57 AM
So, even though the coins we've seen so far all appear to carry the 2016 date, common sense has prevailed and the circulation coins will actually be dated 2017?

Common sense says you can either date your coins according to the year of production or the year of issue. Both make sense. Some coins even use the year of authorisation.

And "nickel-plated" inner, like the 5p and 10p, even though the 50p is still cupro-nickel?  Is cupro-nickel really such a valuable commodity that it can't be used in a high-value coin?

Producers are required to be efficient. Why make the intrinsic content of a coin far more expensive than it needs to be? Look at how expensive copper-nickel is compared to steel. The more copper and nickel you use, the more expensive the coin. We live in an era of fiat money now. The days when the intrinsic value of a coin had to match its face value are long gone. Next you'll be complaining that the 20 pound note doesn't contain GBP20 worth of material. Would you buy marble for your kitchen tops or something much less expensive that looks just as good as marble? Anyway, the new pound coin is designed to be durable, so there is nothing "cheap" about it in the quality sense.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on November 01, 2016, 06:56:31 AM
So, even though the coins we've seen so far all appear to carry the 2016 date, common sense has prevailed and the circulation coins will actually be dated 2017?

The Royal Mint will release both 2016 and 2017 dated 1 pound coins in March 2017. So they chose for year of production.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 01, 2016, 11:55:22 PM
Common sense says you can either date your coins according to the year of production or the year of issue. Both make sense. Some coins even use the year of authorisation.

Producers are required to be efficient. Why make the intrinsic content of a coin far more expensive than it needs to be? Look at how expensive copper-nickel is compared to steel. The more copper and nickel you use, the more expensive the coin. We live in an era of fiat money now. The days when the intrinsic value of a coin had to match its face value are long gone. Next you'll be complaining that the 20 pound note doesn't contain GBP20 worth of material.
I meant "common sense" in terms of what the Royal Mint has done up until now.  New denominations have always been dated with the year they first entered circulation, regardless of when the coins were actually struck.  The exception was the 1997 £2, but that was intended for November that year until it was put back until June 1998.  Oh well, they've broken with their own tradition.  No big deal for a company that appears to be unrecognisable from the one it was ten or 20 years ago.

And the point I was making on the metal was that the 50p is still being struck in cupro-nickel (as indeed is the 20p, though with a different ratio).  I suppose if cupro-nickel is to be abandoned across the board eventually, it makes sense to do so with a new coin.  Changing to nickel-plated steel later would mean a thicker coin in order to retain the same weight.  That's probably the reason they aren't attempting the 20p and 50p yet - the slot machine conversions have enough to cope with thanks to the new £1.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on November 02, 2016, 03:18:12 AM
The Royal Mint will release both 2016 and 2017 dated 1 pound coins in March 2017. So they chose for year of production.

The clip under discussion as well as other images are computer generated graphics and show any year.

Here is one which shows 2016 with micro lettering

http://news.coinupdate.com/united-kingdom-treasury-unveils-final-image-for-new-pound-coin/
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on November 02, 2016, 08:24:51 AM
And the point I was making on the metal was that the 50p is still being struck in cupro-nickel (as indeed is the 20p, though with a different ratio).  I suppose if cupro-nickel is to be abandoned across the board eventually, it makes sense to do so with a new coin.  Changing to nickel-plated steel later would mean a thicker coin in order to retain the same weight.  That's probably the reason they aren't attempting the 20p and 50p yet - the slot machine conversions have enough to cope with thanks to the new £1.

Just wondering if in this case it's more to do with the coins electronic signature than cost?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on November 02, 2016, 11:30:09 AM
Here's what they'll do. Make about 100,000 2016 coins, sneak them into circulation, a year later they'll slap R4RE!!!! L00KKK!!! On them and get everyone crazy for 2016 1 pound coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on November 02, 2016, 02:38:53 PM
I meant "common sense" in terms of what the Royal Mint has done up until now.  New denominations have always been dated with the year they first entered circulation, regardless of when the coins were actually struck.  The exception was the 1997 £2, but that was intended for November that year until it was put back until June 1998.  Oh well, they've broken with their own tradition.  No big deal for a company that appears to be unrecognisable from the one it was ten or 20 years ago.

Who says we should do things the same way all the time? If we applied that to everything, we'd still be living in caves - but then we probably wouldn't have global warming.

And the point I was making on the metal was that the 50p is still being struck in cupro-nickel (as indeed is the 20p, though with a different ratio).  I suppose if cupro-nickel is to be abandoned across the board eventually, it makes sense to do so with a new coin.  Changing to nickel-plated steel later would mean a thicker coin in order to retain the same weight.  That's probably the reason they aren't attempting the 20p and 50p yet - the slot machine conversions have enough to cope with thanks to the new £1.

Again, there is no real reason to do things one at a time. The New Zealanders reduced three of their coins in size in 2006, and nobody died. Just imagine if the Royal Mint had decided to change the pound, 50p and 20p in one fell swoop. Instead of having machine changes spread across various years, they could all have been done at once to save money. Our modern versatile machines could easily cope with checking an extra three coin types. Whether the Royal Mint and distribution centres could cope with producing and handling three such changes at once is another question, though, given that our population is much larger than New Zealand's - but then we have more people to do the work, of course.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on November 03, 2016, 01:54:03 AM
Also, surely changing the machines all in one go is cheaper than changing the coins over a staggered period, this would mean 3 times more work (if there were three changes).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on November 03, 2016, 03:09:37 PM
Further information about the super secret (::)) luminescent phosphor particles:

Essentially they are embedding inorganic fluorescent compounds into the metal plating on the coin. When a certain spectrum of light is shone on the coin, these particles absorb that energy and emit a different spectrum. So, depending on the particle they embed, the detector may be as simple as a UV LED and a light sensor at a specific wavelength.

By integrating different ratios of different particles they can differentiate between different coins, for instance.

Further, the patent explains that the plating process generally includes many layers of plating. They may add different mixes at each layer, and thus tell how well-used a coin is, by how many of the upper layers are removed. Aging the coin can be useful to determine when to take it out of circulation before these particles are entirely removed.

The reading mechanism, which flashes light at the tag (the luminscent material is referred to as a tag), then, after the light is off, detects the emissions from the tag. This would not only limit crosstalk between the light source and detector, but with a short window of time directly related to the time the tag takes to convert and emit the energy, tags that don't exactly fit the profile of an authentic tag would be rejected. If you use a material that absorbs and emits at the correct spectrum, it has to have the same conversion time as well.

The luminiscent particles are called iSIS* and the plating on the coin is called aRMour. There will be low speed 'simple iSIS' detectors at point-of-sale (in shops) as well as 'advanced iSIS' high speed detectors in banks.

Source: http://security.stackexchange.com/ (http://security.stackexchange.com/questions/53673/how-does-the-authentication-in-the-new-uk-%C2%A31-coin-work)

*Officially The Royal Mint dropped that name because of the terrorist organization.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on November 03, 2016, 03:24:11 PM
Further information about the super secret (::)) luminescent phosphor particles:

No need to worry about revealing secrets:

Spy found dead in a bag had hacked into secret US data (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3215890/Spy-dead-bag-infuriated-MI6-bosses-illegally-hacking-secret-data-Bill-Clinton.html)

 ;)

And now I will reveal the secrets behind crop circles:

Crop Circles: Signs from Above or Human Artifacts? (http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1754.htm)

Crop circles 'created using GPS, lasers and microwaves' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/8671207/Crop-circles-created-using-GPS-lasers-and-microwaves.html)

How long do you think I will have left to live?  :-X
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on November 05, 2016, 12:20:25 PM
The clip under discussion as well as other images are computer generated graphics and show any year.

Here is one which shows 2016 with micro lettering

http://news.coinupdate.com/united-kingdom-treasury-unveils-final-image-for-new-pound-coin/

I would not have put my message on here if I didn't have confirmation from the Mint that in fact 2016 and 2017-dated circulating 1 pound coins will be issued.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 13, 2016, 12:35:27 AM
It can't be long now until the 2017 sets are announced, as in recent years they've been available in December.  Do we think the new £1 will be in it, or will they make us wait until March?  In the very old days (1990, 1992 and 1997), the new 5p, 10p, 50p and £2 were available in sets months before they entered circulation (in the case of the £2, almost 18 months before).  The Royal Mint of today is such a different beast that it's hard to predict.  We already know that the 2016 round pound was the last, so there will be no "old and new" in the same sets as there were in those other years.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Jostein on November 22, 2016, 06:20:10 PM
Hey!

Anoyone know what is this:

A friend just sent me this picture...could it be a non adopted pattern of the coin?  ::)


Bests,

Jostein.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on November 23, 2016, 01:46:36 AM
It would have made a very nicely designed coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 23, 2016, 02:17:48 AM
Yes, I agree, it would have been a good nod to continuity to use this adaption of the original £1 coin reverse.  The actual design is effectively an amalgam of the the 1984-87 designs.  Nice enough but hardly a definitive design.  Plus it leaves the 1p to 50p "jigsaw" shield hanging, with no coin showing the complete design.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on November 23, 2016, 03:16:12 PM
I think this may be the reverse of the trial strike (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg172846.html#msg172846) that was minted by George Osborne in 2014. The reverse of that coin was not shown before. It does not really look like an uncirculated coin though..


(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5451/31051989112_6ae6e4b6e8_o.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 05, 2016, 09:30:57 PM
As more and more vending machine owners are realizing that the trial 1 pound coins are worth quite a lot of money, they are now ordering large quantities of trial coins at the mint using all kinds of excuses. At the same time the value of the trial 1 pound coins has dropped from 300 to around 110 pounds per piece.

(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5715/31443293595_cb050430df_o.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 05, 2016, 10:52:26 PM
As more and more vending machine owners are realizing that the trial 1 pound coins are worth quite a lot of money, they are now ordering large quantities of trial coins at the mint using all kinds of excuses. At the same time the value of the trial 1 pound coins has dropped from 300 to around 110 pounds per piece.

One solution would be for the mint to sell trial pieces - charge say £25 for them and wipe out the secondary market for those illegally kept ("lost")
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 05, 2016, 11:46:57 PM
^^ That's what they did with the £2 trial piece from 1994 back in the late 90s, so maybe they might do it with the £1 once the circulation version is out.  There was obviously no eBay etc back then, and the Royal Mint's own Facebook presence ensures there would be a strong market for the trial piece.

Just had a look on eBay at the ones being sold now... who really wants to pay over £100 for a coin that looks as though it's circulated for at least five years?  Even if I had money to burn, I'm not sure I'd be that bothered about it.  I might consider forking out £25 for a pack from the Royal Mint though.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 06, 2016, 12:39:38 AM
Just had a look on eBay at the ones being sold now... who really wants to pay over £100 for a coin that looks as though it's circulated for at least five years?  Even if I had money to burn, I'm not sure I'd be that bothered about it.  I might consider forking out £25 for a pack from the Royal Mint though.

Royal Mint are actively removing those from ebay sending letters out from lawyers (at least they were!)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 06, 2016, 08:19:06 AM
One sold last night for £126, and there's anotheron there now starting at £150, with no bids yet and two days left.  Or you can buy-it-now for £250.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 06, 2016, 09:26:30 AM
The Royal Mint has completely messed up with this. People who want to order these have to deposit 80 pence per trial strike. If they don't return the trial strike, the Royal Mint takes the deposit and that is it. They won't go to the police or bring this for court. I have indeed seen messages from several people (e.g. their Head of Security and their Legal Counsel) in which they state that the pieces have to be returned but obviously everybody ignores these.

It is clear that the deposit per trial strike should have been much higher or the mint should have mentioned a high fine if the trial piece is not being returned in the agreement they have with these vending machine owners*. The Royal Mint has already said that they won't issue the trial coins in a special set (which they used to do in the past). Furthermore the Royal Mint does not want to disclose the mintage figure of these pieces, which also increases their value, while I am sure that the mintage figure is much higher than most collectors think.

*Allegedly the mint doesn't check at all if you have a vending machine or not, so everyone with a company in the UK can order these.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 06, 2016, 10:24:45 AM
Last week someone from the Midlands found a new 1 pound coin in his change. Only some owners of vending machines already have them but they are not allowed to make photos of them let alone spend them. The piece looks very worn.

(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5593/31084879140_d760451730_o.jpg)   (https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5650/31340025691_59724cbeb7_o.jpg)

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 06, 2016, 09:20:43 PM
Royal Mint are actively removing those from ebay sending letters out from lawyers (at least they were!)

I think they'll be on a sticky wicket with that, unless they can demonstrate that the seller him/herself is the thief. AFAIK if someone buys one of these, finds one or is given one in good faith, it is their property to be disposed of as they wish, including on eBay.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 06, 2016, 10:19:05 PM
I think they'll be on a sticky wicket with that, unless they can demonstrate that the seller him/herself is the thief. AFAIK if someone buys one of these, finds one or is given one in good faith, it is their property to be disposed of as they wish, including on eBay.

Not sure - the mint claim they own the trials - so I guess they are merely leased to the vending machine operators...
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on December 07, 2016, 01:50:53 AM
Don't know about English law. Under Napoleonic law, everything depends on "good faith". If the accused bought the object not knowing it was not the property of the seller, it's his to keep, but the plaintiff can still sue the seller if he is in breach of contract. If the plaintiff can make it likely that the accused knew the object was not the property of the seller, he loses the object, but you can sue the seller to get his money and legal costs back. It doesn't amount to the same thing, in particular if the seller is impossible to trace. In some countries, transactions at an auction are assumed to be good faith, unless the contrary can be proven, or even at all times.

If the situation in the UK is comparable, the UK mint must show that it is highly likely or certain that a buyer of a modern trial piece knew that the seller was not at liberty to sell the piece. If there is a law to that effect, that's easy because of the fiction that everyone is assumed to know the law. If the resale ban is based on contract it will be difficult to show that the buyer knew the contents of the contract. However, if the buyer is a knowledgable collector of modern coins or e.g. an active member of a forum where the legal situation has been discussed before the transaction took place, the judge is likely to decide that the buyer was in bad faith. If the buyer is of the "get rich quickly" type, the judge may see good faith but bad taste, which is unfortunately not punishable. ;)

Peter
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 25, 2016, 06:58:23 AM
According to The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/dec/25/new-12-sided-1-pound-coin-to-enter-circulation-on-28-march), the new pound coin will be put into circulation on March 28, 2017 (fine with me), but it also says:

[...]the old-style coin will be defunct by mid-October, the Treasury has announced. [..]

They must be returned and exchanged before 15 October 2017, when they will lose their legal tender status, the Treasury has said.
[...]

Lose legal tender status? Defunct? This is surprising, considering that they have not given much time to exchange to old coins for new ones!

Aditya

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 25, 2016, 07:14:12 AM
I'm sure they've given more time than this in the past. As the article says the notes were removed from circulation in 1988, that's 5 years after, I personally don't remember the notes at all, and by 1988 I was aware of such things. I'm in China, what do I do if I weren't going back to the UK in the summer? It's too short a time.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 25, 2016, 09:20:21 AM
It's consistent with the 5p, 10p and 50p replacements.  The small 5p was introduced in June 1990 and the old larger version lost its legal tender status at the end of December that year.  The old 10p had the longest afterlife of the three at nine months (smaller version issued 30 Sept 1992 and larger one withdrawn 30 June 1993).  For the 50p it was back to six months (new version introduced 1 Sept 1997 and old one ceased to be legal tender 28 Feb 1998).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 25, 2016, 09:30:58 AM
I think 6 months is about standard for coins - notes get a little longer.

And can't you still redeem old coinage after it's ceased to be legal tender? Possibly not in ones and twos, though, and probably after paying a fee.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 25, 2016, 10:07:19 AM
I think on 15 October the co-circulating period ends and that it will still be possible to exchange the coins afterwards. If not, you are right indeed that the exchange period is way too short.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 25, 2016, 11:11:28 AM
I doubt it will be possible to exchange the old coins after 15 October.  Traditionally, old notes can be exchanged forever by the Bank of England, but there's no such facility for coins.  Ceasing to be legal tender means just that, unless the Royal Mint announce otherwise.  Why isn't it long enough?  Pound coins rarely remain in my pocket for more than a few days as I can't stand the things!

Charities that ask for old and foreign coins will presumably accept them indefinitely though.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 25, 2016, 12:57:32 PM
Why isn't it long enough? Well, people live abroad and come back once a year. Imagine you go home this Christmas and then go home next Christmas....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on December 25, 2016, 03:23:24 PM
According to The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/dec/25/new-12-sided-1-pound-coin-to-enter-circulation-on-28-march), the new pound coin will be put into circulation on March 28, 2017 (fine with me), but it also says:

[...]the old-style coin will be defunct by mid-October, the Treasury has announced. [..]

They must be returned and exchanged before 15 October 2017, when they will lose their legal tender status, the Treasury has said.
[...]

Lose legal tender status? Defunct? This is surprising, considering that they have not given much time to exchange to old coins for new ones!

Aditya

The article above has been embargoed until 1 Jan 2017.

"This article was taken down on 25 December 2016 due to it having broken an embargo. The article will be republished at 00.01 on 1 January 2017."

Try this instead:

http://newstimes.ddns.net/news/new-12-sided-1-coin-to-enter-circulation-on-28-march?uid=29152
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 25, 2016, 03:30:48 PM
Why isn't it long enough? Well, people live abroad and come back once a year. Imagine you go home this Christmas and then go home next Christmas....
But surely such people can spend their pound coins before they leave the UK?  At the airport?  Let's face it, everyone knows the new £1 coin is coming next year.  If people choose to take the old ones out of this country then I'm afraid that's their fault if they can't spend them next year.  I really have no sympathy.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 25, 2016, 03:46:17 PM
But surely I can't spend my pound coins, I'm in China, right? I haven't been there since August, I didn't know my pound coins would be useless by October next year. The longest I've been without going to the UK has been 2 years, but a year is my normal time for not going to the UK, they're giving 9 months.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 25, 2016, 04:15:19 PM
I've known that the round pound coins would be going out of use for over a year now and have made it my business to ensure I reduce my stocks of them each time I go to the UK. At the very least, any I'm left with at the end of my next visit I can leave with people I'm with, give to my niece and nephew, put in a charity box at the airport, buy gin with or whatever. Still don't really see what the problem is.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on December 25, 2016, 05:12:15 PM
I would imagine the British government wants the shorter coin withdrawal timeframe to drive as many of the counterfeits out of circulation as possible.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 25, 2016, 08:38:08 PM
But as I've already pointed out, it's not really shorter!  Another example is the 1d and 3d coins.  The decimal coppers were issued in mid Feb 1971, while the pre-decimal versions were withdrawn at the end of August that year.  Six months is the norm, and it's perfectly acceptable not to have a longer changeover period.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 26, 2016, 12:38:50 AM


The 6 months cut off is presumably the date after which you'll no longer be able to use them in shops..... There is usually a longer date in which to change them at banks.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on December 26, 2016, 07:59:45 AM
That's shifting the question to what the procedure will be at the banks. If you can just walk into any bank office and change the pounds, fair enough. If you can only change them in three offices around the country, after completing a form in officialese at a place where mere mortals cannot expect a parking place and you must have a GBP bank account ... mmm.

Tourists are even worse off than expatriates. They will likely not have been informed and would visit the UK less than once a year.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Enlil on December 26, 2016, 08:40:42 AM
As we saw with the Euro, most of the 1 pound coins will be exchanged within a month, but only if the government puts in the effort to do so.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on December 26, 2016, 08:43:09 AM
In some Euro countries I believe you can still exchange coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 26, 2016, 10:38:52 AM

The 6 months cut off is presumably the date after which you'll no longer be able to use them in shops..... There is usually a longer date in which to change them at banks.
I don't think that's ever been the case in the U.K. before though, unless they make an exception for the pound.  The old 50p coin couldn't be exchanged anywhere after Feb 1998, other than charities that took old coins (not quite sure what they do with them though, unless they return them to the Royal Mint for the cupro-nickel to be recovered and the charities get the money back).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on December 26, 2016, 11:01:33 AM
http://www.royalmint.com/help/help/how-can-i-dispose-of-demonetised-coins (http://www.royalmint.com/help/help/how-can-i-dispose-of-demonetised-coins)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on December 26, 2016, 11:13:25 AM
In some Euro countries I believe you can still exchange coins.

Right, in Slovenia you can take your time ... until the end of this week. ;) In Spain the period ends in 2020. Austria, Estonia, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, and Lithuania have unlimited redemption periods for pre-euro coins. But I guess such periods are longer (or unlimited) because it is not just one denomination that is taken out of circulation. And judging from the link that Andy posted, the BoE does not provide such a redemption service for coins at all. If the Royal Mint does not do it either, well ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on December 26, 2016, 11:52:16 AM
http://www.royalmint.com/help/help/how-can-i-dispose-of-demonetised-coins (http://www.royalmint.com/help/help/how-can-i-dispose-of-demonetised-coins)
"How can I dispose of coins no longer in circulation?"

"It is our understanding that some United Kingdom high-street banks are willing to accept demonetised coins from their customers. Please be aware, however, they are under no legal obligation to do so."

That's rather half-hearted of the Royal Mint isn't it?  They should take some responsibility and actually have a proper policy on this, and be actively encouraging the banks to accept the coins.  What's bizarre is that the Mint is currently, or has in recent years, undertaken a cupro-nickel recovery program for 5p and 10p coins issued prior to 2011, resulting in nearly all such coins remaining in circulation being dated 2013 or later.  As the old size 5p, 10p and 50p coins are all in cupro-nickel, surely they would want these coins returned?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 26, 2016, 12:40:04 PM
Right, in Slovenia you can take your time ... until the end of this week. ;) In Spain the period ends in 2020. Austria, Estonia, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, and Lithuania have unlimited redemption periods for pre-euro coins. But I guess such periods are longer (or unlimited) because it is not just one denomination that is taken out of circulation. And judging from the link that Andy posted, the BoE does not provide such a redemption service for coins at all. If the Royal Mint does not do it either, well ...

Christian

In those countries, is it only the coins that were in use immediately before the introduction of the euro that are covered by the indefinite redemption? I guess in the case of Austria, Germany (1948) and the Baltic States (1992) the introduction of the immediately pre-euro currency coincided with such major political upheavals that it is legally reasonable to argue that there is no relevant currency further back than that. But that's not true of Ireland, where the equivalent date is 1928. Can you redeem £sd Irish coinage, or decimal halfpennies and large-size 10ps and 5ps? And even in the others, there are in all cases (I think) coins that have been issued under the auspices of the immediately pre-euro currency systems that were no longer legal tender when the relevant country joined the euro. Are these covered?
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on December 26, 2016, 03:58:15 PM
The article above has been embargoed until 1 Jan 2017.

"This article was taken down on 25 December 2016 due to it having broken an embargo. The article will be republished at 00.01 on 1 January 2017."

Try this instead:

http://newstimes.ddns.net/news/new-12-sided-1-coin-to-enter-circulation-on-28-march?uid=29152

I'm really surprised to see that they had to take it down! This is precisely the reason why I always copy paste the contents of the news in any topic (with mention of the source, of course), and not just the link. Was very bored yesterday so didn't do it, and they took it down! Murphy's Law in the picture again! ::)

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on December 26, 2016, 11:59:30 PM
In those countries, is it only the coins that were in use immediately before the introduction of the euro that are covered by the indefinite redemption?

"Pre-euro" refers to the coins that were in circulation at the time of the changeover. Whether other/older coins can be redeemed, varies from country to country of course. In Austria for example you cannot get euro cash for the older (silver) 5 and 10 schilling coins any more. In Germany, all coins from this country (Federal Republic of G.) except for the 2 DM piece from 1951 can still be redeemed, regardless of when they were taken out of circulation. Coins from other countries (DDR, Deutsches Reich, Saarland) are worthless ... except for collectors. ;)

As for Ireland, the central bank does exchange older coins too. According to this page (http://www.centralbank.ie/paycurr/notescoin/exchange/Pages/irishcoin.aspx), that is. However, dare not give them grubby and filthy money. "Loose Pre-decimal coinage and 1/2p coins must be separated from other coinage, for exchange at the Bank. Staff may refuse to handle coinage that contains foreign objects, is dirty or contains a mixture of Pre and Post decimal coinage."

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on January 01, 2017, 09:25:08 AM
The 2017-dated coin sets contain the new 12-sided 1 pound coin. These sets will already be shipped next week so the issuance of the piece has now started (though not yet for circulation).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 01, 2017, 12:43:47 PM
Just ordered it.  Prices appear to be the same as last year, but fewer coins in them I think.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on January 01, 2017, 01:26:11 PM
Definitive BU set for £30, Annual BU coin set (with commemorative coins included) for £55. I'm not even looking at prices of proof sets now! ::)

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 01, 2017, 09:16:17 PM
Definitive BU set for £30, Annual BU coin set (with commemorative coins included) for £55. I'm not even looking at prices of proof sets now! ::)

Aditya
Just 10 years ago (2007) you could get a nine-coin BU set for £14.95.  This included two commemorative £2 coins and a commemorative 50p, but the standard versions weren't included (this was before the "jigsaw" Royal Arms so standard designs could be left out). 

The corresponding proof set for that year (12 coins: the nine of the BU set plus £5 and standard £2 and 50p) could be bought for £39.95.  Even 2011 - the first year of inclusion of the £5 coin in BU sets - prices were still reasonable.  This was the last year I got both the BU set and proof set.   

I know things change and the Facebook "let's see if we can make a quick buck" generation together with the Royal Mint converting to a private limited company has changed everything, but if everything else had gone up at the same rate coin sets have, we'd all be in poverty now!

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on January 01, 2017, 09:42:11 PM
You are right on inflation:

£14.95 in 2007 is the equivalent of £19.58 today.

http://inflation.stephenmorley.org (http://inflation.stephenmorley.org)

But if everything else (including salaries) had gone up with the same speed, you'd not have been in poverty (unless you had big savings in the bank and no income) and the coin sets would have cost the same in terms of purchasing power. Only the pound would have been at say 25 eurocents. The Daily Mail would report on plans for a new pound, worth 10 old pounds, which the government would deny having. The 1, 2, 5 and possibly 10 pence pieces would have been superfluous and the other denominations would probably have been downsized and a 5, 10 and 20 pound circulation coin would have been introduced. :)

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on January 01, 2017, 09:52:25 PM
Are you sure you've posted in the right thread, Peter? Don't you mean Predictions for 2017 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,37560.0.html)?  >:D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: kena on January 01, 2017, 11:25:42 PM
There are reports from folks who visited the Royal Mint Experience that the pound coin that is being struck now is the new pound coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 07, 2017, 11:21:19 AM
My 2017 coin set arrived today with the new £1 coin included.  The specifications state the inner disc of the coin to be made from "nickel-plated nickel-brass".  Therefore the whole coin is still nickel-brass, merely with part of it nickel plated!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: mrbadexample on January 07, 2017, 11:54:30 AM
Can you tell if it's two separate pieces like the £2, or one piece part-plated?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 08, 2017, 01:15:30 PM
Can you tell if it's two separate pieces like the £2, or one piece part-plated?
It's difficult to tell.  The "join" on the (Britannia) £2 looks more pronounced in places, but I think the £1 is still two pieces of metal.  Seems odd that they didn't go with cupro-nickel for the centre, to match the £2. The two coins do compliment each other in the set.  I'm glad they went for a nickel-brass outer rather than "doing a Euro" and having the metals the opposite way round.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on January 08, 2017, 01:26:01 PM
I'd guess having different metals helps coin vendors a lot.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on February 03, 2017, 11:02:57 AM
Trial versions of new £1 coin already selling for £200 on eBay but you CAN’T spend them in the shops

BY TARA EVANS, DIGITAL CONSUMER EDITOR 2nd February 2017, 4:56 pm

Hundreds of the coins which were made by The Royal Mint and given to retailers to test are being flogged on the auction website – with some fetching as much as £200.

But these coins are not legal tender and can’t be used in shops – even when the new £1 coin goes into circulation at the end of March.

The coins aren’t even considered rare, according to The Royal Mint.

Around 200,000 “trial piece” coins have been made so far. They are supposed to be used by vending machines, supermarket chains and banks so that they will be ready for the new coin’s introduction in March.

The new coin, dubbed the “most secure” in the world, features a hologram at the bottom which shows a £ symbol and the number one depending on the light.

Source: The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/2770072/new-12-sided-trial-1-coins-already-selling-for-200-on-ebay-but-you-cant-spend-them-in-the-shops/)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on February 03, 2017, 11:03:58 AM
The sun calls these trial pieces 'Fakes', which is obviously wrong. They are not legal tender but that doesn't make them fake!

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 03, 2017, 11:12:58 AM
Interesting, first time The Royal Mint mentions the mintage figure of the trial 1 pound coins. Until now that was still 'strictly confidential information'.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on February 03, 2017, 11:22:52 AM
£200 or so for a trial piece, where some 200,000 of them exist, is certainly not a good deal, right? ;)

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on February 03, 2017, 05:38:36 PM
£200 or so for a trial piece, where some 200,000 of them exist, is certainly not a good deal, right? ;)

But aren't those who use these test pieces supposed to return them? So 200,000 would not be the mintage available to collectors. ;)

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 03, 2017, 05:57:01 PM
But aren't those who use these test pieces supposed to return them? So 200,000 would not be the mintage available to collectors. ;)

Christian

Yes they are supposed to return them but if they don't they have to pay a fine of 80p, and as most people know these are worth a lot of money, only very very few of these 200,000 have been returned.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on February 07, 2017, 07:57:56 AM
Royal Mint, on its Facebook page, has said that put of around 1.5 billion new £1 coins, more than half a billion coins will be dated 2016.

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on February 17, 2017, 11:13:34 PM
This is when the current £1 coin ceases to be legal tender this year

The UK Treasury has urged people not to be caught out when the current £1 coin becomes worthless later this year. See video (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/current-1-coin-becomes-worthless-12598297) and more.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 23, 2017, 06:39:44 PM
Small overview:

UK: Round 1 pound coin ceases to be legal tender on October 15. New 1 pound coin to be introduced for circulation 28th March 2017.



Isle of Man and Gibraltar:

Round UK 1 pound coin remains in circulation. New UK 1 pound coin to be introduced for circulation 28th March 2017.
Round IOM and Gibraltar 1 pound coins will remain in circulation. No new 12-sided IOM and Gibraltar 1 pound coins. There will however this year be introduced a new design on the round pound coins.

On the Isle of Man round UK pound coins will be sorted out and returned to the UK so that eventually only the new UK 1 pound coin and the round Manx 1 pound coin will remain in circulation.



Falkland Islands:

Round UK 1 pound coin ceases to be legal tender on October 15. New UK 1 pound coin to be introduced for circulation 28th March 2017. Round Falkland Islands 1 pound coins remain in circulation. For now no changes whatsoever will be made to it.




Guernsey and Jersey:

Round UK 1 pound coin ceases to be legal tender on October 15. New UK 1 pound coin to be introduced for circulation 28th March 2017.
Round Guernsey and Jersey 1 pound coins and cease to be legal tender on October 15. The square circulating commemorative 1 pound coin of Jersey of 1981 ceased to be legal tender on October 15. No new 12-sided Guernsey and Jersey 1 pound coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 23, 2017, 07:04:57 PM
It will be interesting to see what Isle of Man do for their coin sets in future.  Having apparently stopped the 1p and 2p, the absence of the £1 would reduce their sets to six coins (including their £5 coin).  Similar with Gibraltar, though I know they don't produce sets as often.

I still find it surprising that both Isle of Man and Gibraltar are planning on having both versions of the coin indefinitely.  They'll get no more round ones coming over from the UK, and none will be taken back by tourists, so they'll be stuck with both, with gradually more and more of the new version.  Guernsey's plan is much more sensible (and I'm assuming Jersey will follow suit).

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on February 23, 2017, 07:47:10 PM
Small overview:

Sorry, it's not big enough.  :P  What about Jersey, the Falkland Islands and St. Helena-Ascension?

Alderney issues round pound collector coins. Will future versions match the new UK 12-sided pound?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 23, 2017, 08:20:33 PM
Sorry, it's not big enough.  :P  What about Jersey, the Falkland Islands and St. Helena-Ascension?

Alderney issues round pound collector coins. Will future versions match the new UK 12-sided pound?

Emails to Jersey and the Falkland Islands have now been sent. The worthless employees of the Government of St. Helena-Ascension never reply to emails so I won't send an email to them.

The Alderney collectors coins are of course not going to change. They are not in any way related to the 12-sided pound coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on February 23, 2017, 08:31:38 PM
The Alderney collectors coins are of course not going to change. They are not in any way related to the 12-sided pound coin.

They are, by their denomination.  8)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: africancoins on February 23, 2017, 08:54:29 PM
The Commonwealth Mint is the new minting company for the Channel Island of Alderney. I read about this in the March 2017 issue of "Coin News" (Token Publishing Ltd.).... but Alderney wouldn't have been going to have a 12 sided 1 Pound coins soon anyway.....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 23, 2017, 09:00:44 PM
The Commonwealth Mint is the new minting company for the Channel Island of Alderney. I read about this in the March 2017 issue of "Coin News" (Token Publishing Ltd.).... but Alderney wouldn't have been going to have a 12 sided 1 Pound coins soon anyway.....

Did not yet know this. Very bad news. These private mints are crap.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 23, 2017, 09:24:19 PM
They are, by their denomination.  8)
Have there been many silver Alderney £1 coins produced to the specifications of the UK circulation £1?  To my knowledge there were two.  A coronation anniversary in 1993 and a VE Day anniversary in 1995 but nothing since.  The gold issues since then haven't been to the same weight/diameter have they?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on February 23, 2017, 09:42:24 PM
1993, 1995 and 2001, apparently:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/aurigny-1.html
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on February 23, 2017, 11:42:17 PM
Did not yet know this. Very bad news. These private mints are crap.

Pobjoy whilst making thousands upon thousands of collector coins (the Royal Mint is just at bad now IMO) have by far superior quality for the circulating coins than the Tower Mint.

Maybe Tower mint will need a new press if they are producing more....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 24, 2017, 09:36:37 AM
Pobjoy whilst making thousands upon thousands of collector coins (the Royal Mint is just at bad now IMO) have by far superior quality for the circulating coins than the Tower Mint.

Maybe Tower mint will need a new press if they are producing more....

I have a promise in writing from the currency manager at the IOM treasury that the minted coins will look as good if not better than the computer drawings.So maybe quality of coins at Tower Mint is going to increase..
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 24, 2017, 04:43:18 PM
Now updated the overview (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg241182.html#msg241182) I made yesterday to include Jersey.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on February 24, 2017, 07:19:44 PM
Quote from: Isle of Man Treasury
[..]  minted coins will look as good if not better than the computer drawings.

 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 25, 2017, 12:54:41 PM
As both the Falklands and St Helena were so far behind the times on size changes to the 5p, 10p and 50p, and took a number of years to issue the £2, I can't imagine they'll be making any changes to the £1 until at least 2025!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on March 01, 2017, 08:36:42 AM
Now that we can safely say the new coins come out this month :) are people in the UK aware of this? My first reaction would have been "yes, of course" - but then again I am quite interested in coins, and thus, like most members here, not "typical", hehe. Now MasterCard published this press release (http://newsroom.mastercard.com/eu/news-briefs/what-new-1-coin/) on Monday. Quote:

"Fewer than one in five people (17%) realise that the new coin enters circulation on March 28. And, more worryingly, almost nine in 10 Brits (87%) don't know when the deadline is to spend their old £1 coins – October 15."

Sure, consider the source. ;) And the text does not say when this study was done, so the overall awareness may well be different now. But especially the part regarding the deadline I found interesting. Another noteworthy bit: "On average, people have £15 in £1 coins sitting around at home, with young adults aged 18-24 hoarding the most – £25 typically, the study revealed."

And I thought that elderly people were the worst hoarders while people around 20 would prefer mobile payments and even consider plastic to be outdated ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on March 01, 2017, 11:02:13 AM
I gather from the first para that the research was done last month. I don't find the research shocking. It's still early. When the new coins come out, there will be a big collective "what is this...?", followed by a rainstorm of articles in the press, illustrated with the new coin, held by the person who questioned its validity. A few stories will come from police records, citing people complaining about the latest "forgery" and from people complaining about machines that allegedly do not accept the new coin. Every one of these articles will mention when the old coins must be exchanged. There may be a repeat wave of articles as the final exchange date nears. In the end, about a quarter of the coins in circulation will still not be exchanged. MasterCard will not publish how many of its credit cards will have been lost or abused in this period. ;)

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 06, 2017, 09:47:26 AM
The Royal Mint has today issued a special BU set which contains a 2016-dated 1 pound coin with the Royal Mint's mintmark. Only 10,000 pieces will be made with the mintmark.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 06, 2017, 10:05:54 AM
Are they then going to write "RARE" L@@K" etc on the packaging, before telling the masses these have the lowest mintage figures, then people will start hording 2016 1 pound coins thinking they're worth something and some suck on ebay will buy one normal one for 1,000 pounds.

History repeats.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on March 06, 2017, 07:24:42 PM
Are they then going to write "RARE" L@@K" etc on the packaging, before telling the masses these have the lowest mintage figures, then people will start hording 2016 1 pound coins thinking they're worth something and some suck on ebay will buy one normal one for 1,000 pounds.
This 2016-dated coin only appears to be available in a set with the 2016 last round pound.  I expected a price tag of £20 for this, which in itself is a rip-off for two coins, but no, they want £55 for it.  I was also interested in the silver proof version until I saw the price.  I expected £50 but it's £75.  Rip-off Britain is clearly alive and well at the Royal Mint.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 07, 2017, 02:25:08 AM
What I think they'll probably do is release 2016 coins into circulation, then tell people about this one rare 2016 coin with the tiny mint mark that most people will ignore, then tell them how rare the mint mark one is, to make people go crazy.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: paddyirish on March 15, 2017, 10:33:48 PM
Got to examine these and the 2015 sample pieces (different design which I quite liked although there was a lot of silver space on the central piece) today.  The coins are pretty nice and felt quite heavy.  It was an awareness session at my client (a large financial institution).  A lot of people were interested.

Also a nice collection of fake £1 coins to show why it was introduced.  I was outed as a collector very quickly- she asked if I could tell why a coin was a fake and I immediately said "wrong year"...
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 24, 2017, 08:52:44 PM
The concern about the new 1 pound coin grows amongst vending machine operators while its introduction is nearing rapidly. Several companies in the vending machine business (including large ones) have reported problems about the electro magnetic signature (EMS) of the trial coins. Apparently there are significant differences in the EMS of the pieces which makes that machines that were calibrated with 1 trial piece will reject another trial piece and vice versa. Vending machine operators were unaware of this large variation and they fear that many machines will have to be re-programmed once more which is very costly.

Some explanation about the Electro Magnetic Signature:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2904/33471969892_4ec40f1f5c_o.png)

Concerning these trial pound coins, many of them ended up for sale and were being sold for 200 pounds and sometimes more. The Royal Mint now lets take Ebay ads offline and threatens sellers with legal action. They also sent an email to all companies that ordered the pieces to let them know they will take legal action if the pieces don't return.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on March 29, 2017, 09:53:52 AM
The Royal Mint was indeed successful in creating all the hype regarding the new £1 coin: Almost all Indian news media covered it!

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 29, 2017, 10:20:15 AM
The Mint learned a lot from the Olympic coins when they assumed there would just be hype. Now they're really pushing everything they've got.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 01, 2017, 11:07:13 PM
Several mule coins have now been reported as having been found in circulation. An obverse die with date 2016 was matched with a reverse die with 2017 in the micro lettering on the rim.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 01, 2017, 11:22:53 PM
I was looking at that micro-lettering yesterday - it's so small you can't read it, I can barely even tell it's there - would I notice if it was missing - no....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on April 02, 2017, 04:50:20 AM
"would I notice if it was missing - no.... "

That's my thoughts exactly its going to be so easy to pass fakes of the new type in a few months time.

...they may be refused by a slot machine but not by a busy shop assistant.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: africancoins on April 02, 2017, 11:26:10 AM
I did this picture...

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 03, 2017, 10:05:08 PM
The Falkland Islands are going to take the old UK 1 pound coin out of circulation and will introduce the new UK 1 pound coin. Furthermore they will keep their own round 1 pound coin.

The treasury encourages people to use 2 pounds coins due to a shortage of 1 pound coins. The overview here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg241182.html#msg241182) has now been updated.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on April 08, 2017, 10:56:47 AM
something I noticed this week,
the reeded sections are not always the same when compared to the design,
On some the section next to the "O" in One Pound is reeded, others are plain.

A quick picture taken with the phone just now.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on April 08, 2017, 09:13:17 PM
I imagine that's similar to the edge inscriptions on the old pound coins, ie. impossible to get in the same place.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 09, 2017, 02:56:37 AM
It would seem they just send the coins in to be pressed and whichever way around they are, is the way they get pressed.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on April 14, 2017, 06:00:56 AM
There seems to be unlimited quantities of the new pounds dated 2016 for sale on eBay now averaging around 22 to 29 pounds for a bag of 20 coins.

Unfortunately the postage is nearly as much again to me here.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on April 25, 2017, 05:24:38 AM
NO CHANGE Royal Mint hit back at fake £1 coin claims and say ‘we are confident this is not a counterfeit’

By Brittany Vonow
24th April 2017, 6:12 pm  Updated: 24th April 2017, 9:08 pm

THE Royal Mint has hit back at claims that a counterfeit £1 coin was found after a charity worker pointed out discrepancies between two coins.

Roy Wright said he was shocked when he noticed the potential fake, despite claims it the new coins were near-impossible to copy.
But a Royal Mint spokesperson said the coin is not a fake – but a genuine coin with a production fault.

He said: “The Royal Mint has not had an opportunity to examine the coin, but is confident that this is not counterfeit.

“We are not aware of any counterfeits entering circulation but welcome the public’s caution.”

He added: “The organisation produces around five billion coins each year, and will be striking 1.5bn new £1 coins in total.

“As you would expect, we have tight quality controls in place, however variances will always occur in a small number of coins, particularly in the striking process, due to the high volumes and speed of production.”

Concerns had been raised after Roy said there were subtle differences between the coin from a Co-Op in Addlestone, Surrey and others.

It is heavier, the Queen's head is more to the left, the edge is more rounded, it doesn't have a hologram and there is no detail on the head of the thistle.

The new 12-sided piece only came into circulation last month with the Royal Mint proudly announcing it was "forgery proof" and the world's most secure coin.

The new coin is meant to feature a hologram at the bottom which shows a £ symbol and the number one depending on the light.

There is also a secret high-security feature built into the coin designed to protect it from counterfeiting.

Roy said he had gone to get some change to tip for their dinner and noticed the £1 was slightly different to others.

He said he started to look closely at the coin, saying: "I then compared it against three of the normal pound coins and realised it was completely different.

"It has a different thickness and is a different colour."

He added: "The coin is completely different and is more rounded around the edge.

"There is clearly space between the engraving lines, it's a different size, the Queen's head is to the left, and there is no detail of the head of the thistle - it's just a blob.

"The stem of the coin has got no detail on it, there are a lot of things wrong with it."

The new pounds were introduced amid reports that as many as one in every 30 old pound coins were counterfeit.


Source: The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/3404037/royal-mint-hit-back-at-fake-1-coin-claims-and-say-we-are-confident-this-is-not-a-counterfeit/)

(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/nintchdbpict000318844476.jpg?strip=all&w=960&quality=100)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on April 25, 2017, 07:47:26 AM
The problems are, it doesn't need to be an exact replica of the coin, as shown by the previous pound coins, and the other is that either there's a massive quality control problem, or there are fakes out there.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on April 25, 2017, 10:57:06 AM
If the obvious differences are there merely due to some production fault, then that is a major flaw. ;) Guess that this piece is either from an earlier phase (trial period maybe) of the production, and should not have left the mint - or it is a counterfeit. And yes, of course coins (and notes) and be counterfeited, even the most secure ones. After all, the fake piece does not have to be "perfect" in order to be accepted by a human eye and hand, just reasonably similar.

But this is certainly a dilemma. Fake? People may say, look, only a few days after the date of first issue we have counterfeits out there again. Authentic? Ah, then why should I care about subtle security features which, after all, may or may not be there ...

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 25, 2017, 11:21:40 AM
Of course this is absolutely not a counterfeit. The micro edge lettering on the coin of which is suspected that it is a fake is clearly visible. Counterfeiters are unable to copy that. Quality standards clearly seem to have dropped at the Royal Mint in recent years. There are quite a few reports of new 1 pound coins that are a little off, just like this one. 1.5 billion coins had to be made, it is not very strange at all that not every coin is the same.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on April 25, 2017, 11:35:51 AM
Weak strike, especially on the brass part? It's not just the thistle - the definition is less good on the brass parts of the shamrock and the rose, as well.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on April 25, 2017, 07:00:40 PM
The total number of trial pieces for the new 1 pound coin that was made by the Royal Mint is 234,586 these were handed out to 743 different applicants, meaning that on average every applicant requested 315 trial pieces.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on May 25, 2017, 04:35:29 PM
First lookalike new pound coins have been found in circulation. The Singaporese 1 Dollar coin is very similar to the new pound coin and only worth 55p. The Singaporese 1 Dollar coin is 1 gram lighter and 1 mm larger so I do not think it works in vending machines.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4271/34042472534_d323a67f14_n.jpg)(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4249/34845965526_3d928c3701_n.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on May 26, 2017, 03:34:50 AM
Maybe I should go to Singapore before I go home. If each coin makes me 1.45 then then I need to bring back about 200 to make any kind of profit........  >:D >:D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on May 26, 2017, 11:06:28 AM
If you have been in China that long, Singapore is the perfect decompression method: friendly people, good food, excellent tailors, wild shopping and one the best bird parks in the world. However, unless you plan to swim home, don't forget that they scan your luggage. ;D

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 06, 2017, 12:33:18 PM
There are currently rumours that because of the extremely large amounts of coins that had to be minted, a part of the new 1 pound coins has been minted at a foreign mint. Does someone on here know more about that?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: AardHawk on June 07, 2017, 11:08:04 AM
The total number of trial pieces for the new 1 pound coin that was made by the Royal Mint is 234,586 these were handed out to 743 different applicants, meaning that on average every applicant requested 315 trial pieces.
Eurocoin, where did this information come from? Do you have a link?
Thanks.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 07, 2017, 12:38:32 PM
Eurocoin, where did this information come from? Do you have a link?
Thanks.

I have asked my contact at The Royal Mint to provide me this information. I am the only one, outside of the Royal Mint, who has received this information. A copy of the correspondence between my contact at The Royal Mint and I related to the trial 1 pound coin has been provided to you by private message. Exclusivity is something that you will find more often on this forum.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 07, 2017, 05:43:47 PM
I have now seen the first reports of people having rusted new 1 pound coins, all of which are dated 2016. This is possibly related to the production error (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,37109.msg239944.html#msg239944) that happened at the Royal Mint during the production of the new 10 Rupees coin of the Seychelles which appears to have been made of the same alloy.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on June 07, 2017, 05:56:43 PM
I have now seen the first reports of people having rusted new 1 pound coins, all of which are dated 2016. This is possibly related to the production error (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,37109.msg239944.html#msg239944) that happened at the Royal Mint during the production of the new 10 Rupees coin of the Seychelles which appears to have been made of the same alloy.

*Facepalm*.

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on June 07, 2017, 06:30:27 PM
I have now seen the first reports of people having rusted new 1 pound coins, all of which are dated 2016. This is possibly related to the production error (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,37109.msg239944.html#msg239944) that happened at the Royal Mint during the production of the new 10 Rupees coin of the Seychelles which appears to have been made of the same alloy.

Wonder how common the problem is,  at work we usually handle two to three thousand per day of which maybe 30% are still old ones and I've yet to spot a dud one (or a foreign one). Maybe they might be worth something if you get one.  I do have a big pile of fake old type pound coins though....
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: AardHawk on June 07, 2017, 08:14:48 PM
I have asked my contact at The Royal Mint to provide me this information.
Thank you for that, its good information.
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on June 08, 2017, 06:26:36 AM
Have YOU got one? Rare new £1 coin found with different dates on it worth a small fortune

A WINDOW cleaner claims to have found an "extremely rare" new £1 coin which is dated 2016 - the year before it came into circulation.

PUBLISHED: 16:46, Wed, Jun 7, 2017 | UPDATED: 22:11, Wed, Jun 7, 2017

Richard Bird says hopes he Royal Mint error will land him a small fortune because it is so rare he cannot find any other examples online.

The coin has the year 2016 printed on one side of the coin - but on the converse side 2017 is engraved in micro-lettering.

The coin was not introduced into circulation until March this year.

Mr Bird, who turned to coin collecting after gaining a lot of coins during his rounds, admits spending hours raiding through change to spot a rare or special one.

Mr Bird, of Hull, West Yorkshire, said: "This one is an error coin. It's a rare one from the Royal Mint where they have just made an error in the production of it.

"I looked for information on it but couldn't find anything, apart from one mention on change-checker so I think there's only one other recorded one.

"The Royal Mint don't seem to have even realised they have made this mistake."

Money collector website Change-checker reports rumours of the existence of coins with this genuine error by the Royal Mint in production.

If it is confirmed, the website believes the rare engraving is the result of miss-matched 2016 and 2017 dies being used during production.

Mr Bird says he is so passionate about collecting coins, his local bank has even stopped allowing him to take cash out in large sums of change due to his habit.

He added: "I'm a window cleaner and get a reasonable Amount of change doing the job, and started getting into coin collecting.

"There were coins I saw pictures of, and thought I have that and it was worth money. Sometime now I will see someone with a 50p coin and say I'll give them £2 for it, and they're aghast.

"I started getting a lot of change, with work and asking for it with shops. I must have been getting £2,500 in change at times.

"I started taking it more seriously and was then selling gold and silver.

"I had been getting so much change from the bank that they wouldn't let me have more. I was chasing ice cream vans to get more change."

A spokesman for changechecker.org said: "We've heard a few reports of differing dates on either side of the new £1 coin.

"While we haven't seen any physical examples of these ourselves, it does seem to be a genuine minting error caused by using one 2016 dated die with a 2017 dated die.

"As for its value, it's always difficult to say without knowing how many have been struck in this way.

"However, a similar die error in 2008 that resulted in around 250,000 20p coins going into circulation without a date is currently worth between £50 and £75."

A veteran coin expert has labelled the rare find as one which could fetch up to a cool £3,000 - but only if it gets verified by the Royal Mint itself.

Analyst Ken Walker from Britain's largest coin catalogue site Coin Centre UK, said: "Before the coin is worth anything it would need to be sent to the Royal Mint for them to check it.

"If the coin has two different dates on, this is usually where another coin has been stuck in the dye, incused and raised.

"That could be a major error if it was verified - meaning if it went up on eBay it could go for up to £3,000."

"An error like that could be worth a lot of money if it is the case, but the price of the coin would only be nominal until then."

Asked about the quantity the dodgy coin could fetch, he added: "People list coins for huge amounts - thousands - on eBay, but it is only the price that they sell for which actually matters.

"This style of selling coins for high value is common across coin collecting and I would urge Mr Birdsays to send the coin to the Royal Mint to be checked.

"Unfortunately, until it has pedigree after being verified it is not worth anything."

Source: Express (http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/814258/Rare-1-coin-could-be-worth-a-fortune)
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on June 08, 2017, 06:29:51 AM
From being the "most secured" coin in the world to being "most ridiculed" one...the £1 coin came a long way. ;D

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on June 08, 2017, 10:28:55 AM
When it was first reported that the micro-date was different on some coins to the one on the obverse, I did either get a magnifying glass or zoom in with the camera on my phone but I got a bit bored of that.  The micro-date is so small as to almost be invisible to the naked eye.  Great for people to make money on by selling on eBay, but other than that it's no big deal.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on June 08, 2017, 10:32:44 AM
I'm sure the Asperger's brigade will love them.  :D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 08, 2017, 12:02:24 PM
This mule error is, however, much more serious than the "Flag error" (Tiny CUD in the form of a flag on the WOI 2 pound coin of 2015), the "8th wisker error" (tiny die break on Peter Rabbit 50p), etc. which collectors seem to love and which sell for a premium. That first one comes with a complete legend about the existence of 2 different designs (one with and one without flag in the mast of the ship) and that the Royal Mint accidently mixed them and does not know how many were made.

Furthermore the existence of this mule error was already reported long ago (and as prime!) on WOC here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg243934.html#msg243934). I know this Rich Bird and he is spreading complete rubbish through the media. He knows there have at least 40 of these been reported as having been found but he just wants to make his piece more valuable by spreading fake news about only 1 other in existence.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 09, 2017, 04:35:48 PM
Photos of discolouration and oxidation:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4286/35067534661_c3d75ece83_o.jpg)(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4283/35067534811_d21d606f9a_o.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4245/35067534451_15abc80a5d_o.jpg)(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4264/35067534581_fa4e400fd5_o.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on June 30, 2017, 05:28:45 PM
Approximately 5.7 million coins were minted with the mule error (2016 on obverse/2017 on reverse), of which an unknown amount was discovered and destroyed.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on July 16, 2017, 02:58:01 PM
I've now personally handled about 10,000 new pound coins, rusted or discoloured coins must be quite rare as I've not found a single one yet.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on July 16, 2017, 03:00:40 PM
Try treating a good one with vinegar and see a genuine mint error appear before your very eyes >:D

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on July 16, 2017, 09:34:41 PM
I find it very hard to believe that discoloured or oxidised £1 coins is as big a problem as the media or some forum members would like to think it is.  It appears to be the nickel-brass part that's discoloured in photos.  If, as Peter points out, it's vinegar that can do this then it's been possible to cause this for 34 years.

I'm also surprised that the Royal Mint has bothered to destroy mis-matched main and micro dates.  I gave up long ago getting the magnifying glass out, the micro-date is far too small. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on July 16, 2017, 10:33:27 PM
I find it very hard to believe that discoloured or oxidised £1 coins is as big a problem as the media or some forum members would like to think it is.

The media has as far as I know not reported on this. Nobody has ever claimed it is a big problem. Over 1 billion coins have so far been minted so it is no more than normal that a number of coins are errors. The problem is more than likely the same that also affected a certain amount of the 10 Rupees coin of the Seychelles.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on July 26, 2017, 08:51:17 AM
According to an announcement of the treasury earlier today, there are now more new 12-sided pound coins in circulation than circular pounds.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on July 28, 2017, 11:31:32 AM
Some further images of tarnished coins, clearly the same issue as with the Seychelles coins.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4301/35824533980_bd266f5b39_o.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on July 28, 2017, 12:08:57 PM
Still yet to find one - and I've looked at several hundred per day, these must be quite valuable.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on July 28, 2017, 12:41:34 PM
Try spilling your drink on one? ??? maybe coca cola would do it!
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on July 29, 2017, 03:54:58 PM
Surprisingly, these rusted coins don't appear on eBay either...so must not be very common.

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on July 29, 2017, 04:21:54 PM
They are starting to tarnish though (on the nickel-brass part).  That's normal though as the older 2016-dated coins have been in circulation for four months now and nickel-brass traditionally doesn't take long to lose its freshly-minted appearance.

I'm already finding I'm getting a bit bored of the reverse design though.  We were used to up to 25 different designs of the old £1 coin in circulation.  I hope they start a new series of designs next year.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on July 29, 2017, 05:05:23 PM
Surprisingly, these rusted coins don't appear on eBay either...so must not be very common.

That does not indicate anything at all as the average person would think it is just a badly worn coin and the average British collector does not appear to be interested in this error and so it does not have any value above face value. The fact that it is not precisely known what caused this error also makes that few people are interested in it.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on July 29, 2017, 06:24:56 PM
That's true actually.  As a collector, I wouldn't be interested in a coin in that state.  If I did get one in change I'd quickly spend it (but then that's me generally - I always spend old, worn or marked coins first and keep the newer, shinier ones until I really have to spend them).
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on October 09, 2017, 08:32:59 AM
According to Royal Mint's estimate, around 500 million old round £1 coins have not been returned yet. There is only one week left to get them exchanged.

Also, Royal Mint is melting down around 1.9 million old £1 coins everyday.

Aditya
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: onecenter on October 09, 2017, 01:08:09 PM
The Royal Mint will never see my small pile of circulated one pound coins obtained from a friend who traveled to Europe in the late 1980's. :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 09, 2017, 05:30:23 PM
I’m getting a bit fed up with the news stories today about the old pound.  These are pretty much the stories the media is hyping:

Poundland are prepared to accept the old pounds after the deadline in case customers still have them.

Shoppers are furious at still receiving old pounds - Tesco self-service tills giving out the old pounds in change and the shoppers being told by Tesco that they can’t exchange them for new ones.

Small businesses complaining that the changeover period is short (even though it averages the period for every coin re-issue in the last 47 years).

The Royal Mint telling us 500 million of the old coins are still in circulation.  As they created the Facebook-generation collecting frenzy they shouldn’t be too surprised by this.  With 24 different round £1 reverse designs, and the Mint feeding the frenzy by making everyone aware of how uncommon some of them are, do they really expect to get even half of that number back?

I don’t remember any of this with the old 50p 20 years ago.  It just quietly disappeared.  This is the first UK coin change in the age of the smartphone/ social media/ mass use of the internet.  Why is it that the more information you give people, the less they use it?

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 09, 2017, 05:46:51 PM
My thoughts - perhaps it's time for a rethink on what coins will be needed in the near and not-so-near future.

We have £50, £20. £10 and £5 notes, alongside £2, £1, 50p, 20p, 10p, 5p ,2p,and 1p coins.   Are these suitable for the future?

Are these really your just own thoughts?

My thought is that this is a kind of of propaganda - for someone who wants to encourage inflation

Why would anyone want to do that?

Rob T
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 09, 2017, 08:42:18 PM
EWC, the post you’re quoting is three and a half years old and the member that posted it doesn’t appear to have been active on here in over two years.  Having read the full post that you quoted from, it looks like UK Decimal + was inviting discussion.  Nothing wrong in doing that.

Anyway, there are other topics that have since discussed the future of the 1p/2p/5p and introduction of a circulating £5.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 09, 2017, 08:57:04 PM
Having read the full post that you quoted from, it looks like UK Decimal + was inviting discussion.  Nothing wrong in doing that.

And I discussed it.  So, what is the problem?   ???
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on October 09, 2017, 10:40:28 PM
And I discussed it.  So, what is the problem?   ???

no problem as long as you don't mind not getting an answer!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 10, 2017, 08:08:32 AM
no problem as long as you don't mind not getting an answer!

I travel in hope.  Foolish perhaps - but what else can one do?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 10, 2017, 08:16:50 AM
I travel in hope.  Foolish perhaps - but what else can one do?
I was going to suggest this topic about 1p and 2p coins but looks like you commented in it at the time: http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,30921.0.html

My own thoughts on the matter are that the denominations are fine as they are.  Countries like the US still use their “penny” coin (which is worth less than 1p) and very few countries with comparable currencies to sterling have the five unit as a coin.  The £50 note is hardly seen so we don’t need anything higher.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 10, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
My own thoughts on the matter are that the denominations are fine as they are. 

Good. 

My fear is this.  As I understand it overtly time stamped money was proposed by Gessell, but was actually brought in rather more covertly by neo-Keynsians - by targeting 2% inflation.  That was not a huge problem pre-crash when you could easily get 5% risk free on deposits.

But we are now in a situation when BofE is turning a blind eye to 3% inflation and you can only easily get 1.5% risk free on deposits.  Looks to me like gvt is starting to steal money from the prudent to give to the imprudent (most especially itself).

The idea tacit in the mail I criticised was that inflation is inevitable.  It isnt, and we are reaching a stage where even at 2% in the UK it looks rather undesirable

Rob T
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on October 10, 2017, 09:42:45 AM
I’m getting a bit fed up with the news stories today about the old pound.  These are pretty much the stories the media is hyping:

Poundland are prepared to accept the old pounds after the deadline in case customers still have them.

Was wondering about that too. I saw this story in The Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/oct/09/shops-to-ignore-pound-coin-deadline which says that some? many? stores will continue to accept the old £1 coin despite (and beyond) the deadline. The text refers to a Telegraph article, so I came up with this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/08/thousands-shops-will-keep-accepting-old-1-coins-cease-become/

Admittedly I do not mind having such deadlines, but from "around here" I am used to fixed dates. Say, you can use a certain type or denomination until date X, and maybe turn them in for another X years. Not sure about the UK, but I assume that shopkeepers who accept the old coins will later still be able to turn them in. Will they? :)

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 10, 2017, 09:59:34 AM
Will they? :)

Yes of course.   Usual bunk in the press   :) 

Last year an American guy sent me a bunch of old 50p's (demonetized 1998?) and I cashed them at my local bank - I assume you still can cash all the UK decimal coin, (though I never tried the 1/2 p's) 

Rob T
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 10, 2017, 10:53:09 AM
Admittedly I do not mind having such deadlines, but from "around here" I am used to fixed dates. Say, you can use a certain type or denomination until date X, and maybe turn them in for another X years. Not sure about the UK, but I assume that shopkeepers who accept the old coins will later still be able to turn them in. Will they? :)

Christian
Apparently the banks will accept them after the deadline.  Not sure how long for though as no ultimate deadline has been provided.  This is a first for UK coins.  All previous withdrawn coins (pre-decimal coins, half penny, old size 5p, 10p and 50p) weren’t redeemable at banks after the six month changeover period.  No one apparently had a problem with that then.  Not sure if they’ve changed it for the old pound because it’s a higher-value denomination and so many circulate, but I can’t understand what the fuss is about.  The media and the internet (and indeed shopkeepers) are making mountains out of molehills.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 10, 2017, 11:11:36 AM
This is a first for UK coins.  All previous withdrawn coins (pre-decimal coins, half penny, old size 5p, 10p and 50p) weren’t redeemable at banks after the six month changeover period. 

 ???   See mine prior........
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 10, 2017, 01:52:43 PM
Sorry, my page hadn’t updated and I hadn’t seen your post when I did mine.

I wasn’t aware of that - certainly it was never publicised at the time.  The impression given was that once the deadline had passed, the coins were worthless.  However, charities much later started accepting old (and foreign) coins, so somewhere along the line (ie. during the last 20 years) something changed.  It kind of makes sense - the metal could be melted down if nothing else - but I think publicising it this time is a mistake as it’s allowing shops to decide to continue to accept them.  It shouldn’t go on indefinitely.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on October 10, 2017, 02:05:37 PM
There were notices on all the Lidl self-service machines this morning saying that they no longer accepted round pounds, and you would have to go to the manned tills instead. They didn't say "manned" tho - I can't remember the phrase they used. Well, Lidl is german, chrisild is German, so I'm blaming chrisild and am demanding compensation: a 15¼ euro note by the end of the week, or he's banned!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on October 10, 2017, 03:15:49 PM
There were notices on all the Lidl self-service machines this morning saying that they no longer accepted round pounds, and you would have to go to the manned tills instead. They didn't say "manned" tho - I can't remember the phrase they used. Well, Lidl is german, chrisild is German, so I'm blaming chrisild and am demanding compensation: a 15¼ euro note by the end of the week, or he's banned!

The self checkout places probably said "personned" instead of "manned". Gender neutrality and all that. :)

Well, when our second generation €5 notes came out, quite a few machines initially had problems with them. My anger about that is compensation enough ... But it is good to know that the older £1 coins can be turned in (by businesses) later - then I do not see any problems with dealers accepting them after the deadline.

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 10, 2017, 03:57:09 PM
My concern is that if they accept them after the deadline, they may also give them out again in change (particularly in the self-service checkouts).  Hopefully this won’t be the case though, and they will have safeguards against that.  If anyone dares give me one after the deadline they will regret it!  >:(

I did once get an old 50p in change, about two years after they were withdrawn.  The person that gave it me claimed not to have realised (I didn’t believe her).  I’ve also been given at least two old 5p coins (or rather the earlier “One Shilling” versions) passed off as 10p coins.  It was at least 20 years after the coins had been withdrawn.  Never been given an old 10p or half penny though.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on October 11, 2017, 11:55:47 AM
I accidentally tried to pay a second hand book seller with a half new penny last year. She liked the coin and gave me a discount on the book if she could keep the coin. The book became one of my favourites. Everyone won, even the little coin :)

Peter
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Bimat on October 14, 2017, 03:14:25 PM
Shopkeepers braced for weekend of chaos over old £1 coins

By Katie Morley, consumer affairs editor
14 OCTOBER 2017 • 10:25AM

Shopkeepers being hassled by angry customers who are confused over whether they can spend old £1 coins this weekend have been advised to stand their ground.

Consumers have just two days left to spend their round pounds before they cease to be legal tender from Monday and are expected to hit the shops in a bid to get rid of them beyond the deadline.

But a mass boycott of the official deadline by thousands of stores is likely to result in mass confusion among consumers over when and where the coins can be spent.

The switch over to the new £1 coin is set to give shops a boost over the weekend with up to two thirds of the remaining coins expected to be spent before the deadline of midnight on Sunday.

Shops are expected to be busier - but also rowdier over the weekend - with confused shoppers expected to create queues by quibbling with shopkeepers over the £1 coin.

Angry shoppers have this week spoken out after being handed old pound coins as change just days before the deadline.

Shops handing out old coins over the next two days are likely to face an even stronger reaction, as time is running out for shoppers to spend the coins.

A spokesman at the Federation of Small Businesses, said: "There’s no obligation for any business to accept the old pounds after the deadline. Any businesses that continue to accept them are doing so voluntarily. While it is likely many will, it’s purely at their discretion."

Some 500 million old-style coins ones are still in circulation.

The Royal Mint and the Treasury are understood to have told businesses that they want a “clean break” from the round pound to avoid potential chaos being created by some shops continuing to accept them as payment. But thousands of stores including Tesco, Poundland and Iceland will defy the deadline and continue to accept the coins beyond the deadline.

 Rules coming into force on Oct 15 will prevent shops handing out old £1 coins as change and will give shops the right to refuse them as payment.

However, there is no rule preventing shops – which are able to bank old £1 coins long after this date – accepting the coins beyond the end of this week.

The 12-sided £1 coin came into circulation in March as part of the Mint’s efforts to cut back on counterfeits.A Treasury spokesman said: “The new pound coin was brought in to reduce the multimillion-pound cost to British business from counterfeits. Businesses told us they wanted certainty on a cut-off date, which is why we introduced the October 15 deadline.

“We have worked tirelessly with businesses for several years to support their preparations for this, including launching a campaign a year ago to help firms educate their workers.

“The overwhelming majority of businesses tell us they are ready, and the small minority who choose to keep accepting the old coin, after it ceases to be legal tender, will have to make their own arrangements with their banks.”

Source: The Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/13/shopkeepers-braced-weekend-chaos-old-1/)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 14, 2017, 11:01:00 PM
In other words, it would be going far more smoothly had all the stores stuck to the deadline.  The “confusion” has been caused by the stores that thought they were helping their customers by deciding to defy the deadline date.

I know there are now generations that weren’t around or weren’t old enough during previous coin changes - the last one was almost 20 years ago - but really, what is the problem?  Pound coins are high value.  How do these people think we went on when it was half pennies, large 5p, 10p or 50p, or pre-decimal coins?  As lower-value coins, there must have been many more lying around in houses?  People managed to spend those coins back in the day, and that was under the belief that they would be worthless after the deadline date.  The pre-decimal coins were explicitly stated in public awareness campaigns that they “cannot be used as money” after the deadline date.

Perhaps it was a mistake to make people/shop owners aware that the old pounds can be traded-in at banks for an unspecified period (perhaps indefinitely).  All it’s done is caused no one to take the date seriously, and the shop owners that are doing it properly are being criticised for sticking to it.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 15, 2017, 08:33:26 AM
Perhaps it was a mistake to make people/shop owners aware that the old pounds can be traded-in at banks for an unspecified period (perhaps indefinitely). 

Afraid I find this suggestion troublesome in a general and very fundamental way.  Can it ever be a mistake to tell people the truth? 

On this specific problem - it rather reminds me of that year 2000 computer crash that never happened.  The press have pretended there would be a problem, and are now pretending there is a problem. 

Problem?  What problem?

Rob T
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on October 15, 2017, 09:10:29 AM
At work our cash counters tell us they can continue to accept the old £1 coins for now, so although officially we don't accept them after Sunday I've sent instruction out to the front line staff that we are to politely remind the customer that they are no longer valid but to still accept them...

Like EWC I cannot see what the fuss is about - I suspect it's just the usual "make a story out of nothing"

The 2000 computer crash didn't happen because businesses were prepared, the 2017 pound crash won't happen likewise :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 15, 2017, 09:28:01 AM
All sounds very sensible  :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 15, 2017, 11:27:22 AM
Afraid I find this suggestion troublesome in a general and very fundamental way.  Can it ever be a mistake to tell people the truth? 
Sometimes yes.  In this instance, no one is really taking the deadline date too seriously.  Some shops are thinking “we can trade them in with banks at anytime” and for this reason the public are seeing the date as unnecessary and irrelevant.  As I say, this definitely wasn’t the case in previous changeovers.  Coins were apparently worthless after the date, and shops and the public appeared to accept that. 

I think it is up to the individual to take responsibility for spending coins they don’t want.  It shouldn’t be up to the state to say “never mind, you can bring them to a bank at any time in the future and they will welcome them with open arms”.  That’s half the trouble with the world today - no one wants to take responsibility for anything.

I know it is different times though... and the old pound having so many different reverse designs (and some known to be less common than others) mean that people have become more reluctant to part with them.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 15, 2017, 11:57:24 AM
That’s half the trouble with the world today - no one wants to take responsibility for anything.

I think you have it completely upside down. 

Governments issued these things and should stand behind them.  All gvt banknotes back to 1694 here are still honoured and I see no reason why coins should be treated any differently.  Repudiating them is dishonest

Its just false to say things were in general different in the past,  I already that  pointed out, and I thought you accepted your error?  Its true that the pre-decimal stuff was eventually repudiated - but  everyone I knew at the time thought that was a swindle . 

Am curious about why anyone thinks any different today.  I'm afraid  just looks like Keynsian brainwashing of youth to me. 

I seem to think Manzikurt was there when I discussed pre-decimal half crowns being repudiated (with Dougie around 1975 or so) - I wonder what he now thinks on this?

Rob T
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on October 15, 2017, 12:34:27 PM
What would have made sense would be to have a period of time where old one pound coins were accepted, but it wasn't acceptable to give them out as change. Say like a one or two week period. Then the shops could hand the coins into the banks, but people would know they had this amount of time to spend their coins.

The problem is if you can be given a pound coin on your last shop before the coins are taken out, then you have to go to bank to do this, when the shops are going to have to go to the bank anyway.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on October 15, 2017, 12:35:43 PM
Blame accountants. They won't mind :)

A coin that is withdrawn but can still exchanged becomes what is known as a contingent liability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_liability): if someone offers it at some time, liquidity should be available to pay them. Therefore, such coins (but also banknotes, train tickets, government bonds etc) bind government liquidity. To finance that need for liquidity, doing nothing in particular, the government needs to raise cash, which costs British taxpayer's money.

This cost should be weighed against the value of the implied government promise of the item (coin in this case). That is a political decision and there is no moral argument against it. The only issue is the conditions for exchanging the old coins, not whether or not they should be honoured forever.

The extremes are clear. If politicians judge the cost of the contingent liability as negligible, they can set the exchange term at indefinite. If they think the cost is a pure waste of money, the exchange term should be relatively short, but long enough to give everyone a fair chance to redeem the old pieces, which implies that there must be sufficient points, distributed all over the country to effect the exchange.

Politicians will judge the equation differently. In countries that changed over to the euro, the exchange term varied from a good number of years to forever, often with banks receiving the old coins in the first years, the central bank only redeeming them in later years. In that perspective, the UK exchange term looks short.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 15, 2017, 12:50:13 PM
Not sure if it’s short, Peter?  No time limit has been given for banks and as EWC managed to exchange some old 50p coins in more recent years, it would suggest it’s indefinite? 

The policy clearly changed somewhere along the line.  Old banknotes were always redeemable at the Bank of England indefinitely, but until some point in the last 20 years, coins never were after the six-month changeover period.

Not my problem though.  I’ve spent the ones I don’t want.  As I say though, if any shop dares to give me one after today (and preferably not today either) then they will soon be told where they can shove it!  :D

My elderly (95) great aunt was given two old pounds on Thursday.  My sister was taking her shopping so swapped them with her for new ones, but I thought that was quite bad of the shop to give an old lady (who doesn’t get out that much) coins that she’d have had trouble exchanging after today.  Quite thoughtless I thought.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on October 15, 2017, 01:16:32 PM
Various questions. For whose convenience is this being done? And can you please all the people all the time anyway?

When looking at the question of the weight-to-value ratio, with regard to Britain's coins, it was clear that that policy was to the advantage of the banks and retailers and transporters of coinage and not to the advantage of the public. As Alan71 pointed out, if a 2p coin weighs the same as two pennies, then you've lost part of the advantage of a higher denomination. After all, a 20p does not weigh the same as a 10p, so it's far preferable to receive four 20p coins in change than eight 10p coins.

But how long do people think is "reasonable" anyway? How many people would want to return a double florin to the bank or spend it in a shop? A 400-year-old man might be interested in returning his 1694 bank notes to the Bank of England, but only a fool would do that, as you'd get more for them as collector items.

As for the inbuilt inflation in the system, since the Great Depression politicians and economists have been terrified of deflation, therefore they tolerate a (hopefully) small amount of inflation annually. Deflation threatens to turn into a spiral, because people defer some of their purchases, waiting for prices potentially to fall further. Hence Ben "Helicopter" Bernanke, who had the idea of dropping EWC out of a helicopter to stop him asking awkward questions. No, got that wrong.  :-[  It was to try to prevent deflation during a depression by dropping banknotes out of a helicopter.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on October 15, 2017, 04:06:22 PM
As for the inbuilt inflation in the system, since the Great Depression politicians and economists have been terrified of deflation, therefore they tolerate a (hopefully) small amount of inflation annually.

Not tolerate -  they target 2%. 

On the c. 2 trillion UK debt that would save them what -  in the order of 40 billion a year?

But at the present they "tolerate" about 3%.  So 60 billion?

You actually believe that is just some kind of accident?

As to acting honourably with coin exchange, I think Peter is right in the short tern

It could be seen as setting off the cost of acting honourably against the cost of undermining rationality through the education system.  And the latter might seem cost free, as you pay teachers any which way.

 But eventually such birds come home to roost.  Can anyone name a past empire when that did not happen?  Or - is history bunk?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on October 15, 2017, 04:15:36 PM
You're not wrong. I've pointed out this site before: Surplus Energy Economics (https://surplusenergyeconomics.wordpress.com).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on October 19, 2017, 10:43:43 PM
Its not inflation that counts but the difference between inflation and total return, known as real return. The real return can be negative. If the total return on your investment or portfolio is 17% and inflation is 20%, your real return is -3%. The issuer of the financial instrument pays with less purchasing power than the purchasing power he took out of the market.

If inflation is 1% and the total return of gilts is 2% the government is not "saving money" because of inflation, but paying above inflation. In fact, the higher the inflation, the higher the chance that the real return is negative. Today, inflation is very low and real returns are quite positive.

Indeed, central banks target inflation. Imagine inflation as a balloon on a fountain. Perhaps in theory, the balloon should not move, but in practice, there are so many outside influences, ranging from wind to water pressure, that the balloon continually "dances" on top of the fountain. If you would control water pressure, you might stabilise the balloon somewhat by trying to compensate for the balloon's movement, but you'd soon find out that it is a futile exercise. You'd achieve more by observing the balloon and reacting only when something important happens.

"Controlling" inflation (the balloon) with the money supply (the fountain) is a similar situation. You can aim for a certain level, but shouldn't hope to achieve it, except by accident and for a short while. That's what financial traders call "uncertainty", which is destabilising, therefore undesirable. Central banks will announce a target inflation, so that the financial sector knows what the central bankers are aiming at. That target is a (secondary) tool to stabilise the financial economy, which is a benefit for everyone.

The target is always positive. That's not only out of fear of deflation, but also because inflation figures are systematically too high. One effect is that officials are always behind updating the goods and services whose price they measure (the basket), because it is not possible to predict the future. Over a period of only a few years, a phone went from a government issued single type to a Nokia to an iPhone. Another effect is known as the hedonism factor. A 1970 car had to have minor maintenance every 5 000 km and major maintenance every 10 000 km. A 2010 car would have major maintenance every 30 000 km only. The improvement is part of the price increase, but it's not inflation. The total of basket and hedonism effect is a subject of research and differs from one country to another. Normal values found range from 1 to 3%.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on October 20, 2017, 09:28:49 PM
Quote from: <k>
But how long do people think is "reasonable" anyway? How many people would want to return a double florin to the bank or spend it in a shop? A 400-year-old man might be interested in returning his 1694 bank notes to the Bank of England, but only a fool would do that, as you'd get more for them as collector items.

That works the other way round too.

Irish coins are redeemable at face at the Central Bank of Ireland, all the way back to 1928. Given that in most cases the specifications of predecimal and early decimal Irish coins are the same as those of the UK, it would be hard for bank staff to weed out non-Irish coins except by going through them, which is obviously time-consuming if someone turns up with loads of bags of them.

But in practice they probably wouldn't be that bothered, especially for low-denomination coins, because the metal value in e.g. a predecimal penny is likely to exceed its face value. So the CBI is no doubt quite happy to pay significantly below the odds for perfectly good metal, and the customers who think they're pulling a fast one are satisfied too.

As to whether it's acceptable to refuse to honour obsolete coinage at central banks, for me it is a question of clarity and transparency. If it is written into a country's legal code that coins will become invalid for commerce x months after an announcement, and then irredeemable at the central bank x years after that, then I don't see what the problem is. I don't see why the state (and by extension society) should have to pander to the whims of the unobservant. On the other hand, if either the law or custom and practice have dictated one policy in the past and it then changes without warning, decent publicity and/or a reasonable explanation, then I think that is unreasonable.

It's also not beyond the wit of humanity to limit one's exposure to the risk of being left with unusable coinage. Sure, if you are unlucky enough to receive an old pound in change just before the deadline and can neither spend it again nor feel it's worthwhile to redeem it elsewhere, you may have to simply write it off as a loss. But people who complain they've got pocketfuls left at the deadline have only themselves to blame. I've never understood the mentality that leads people to accumulate large piles of current coinage. I have a small compartment in my wallet for coins. I spend them roughly as I get them, even when in the UK or eurozone (where there are appreciable numbers of coins in use - in Sweden coins are so worthless and cash use so rare, it's less of an issue).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on October 21, 2017, 01:31:55 PM
If it is written into a country's legal code that coins will become invalid for commerce x months after an announcement, and then irredeemable at the central bank x years after that, then I don't see what the problem is. I don't see why the state (and by extension society) should have to pander to the whims of the unobservant. On the other hand, if either the law or custom and practice have dictated one policy in the past and it then changes without warning, decent publicity and/or a reasonable explanation, then I think that is unreasonable.

Basically agreed. The "locals" will of course know when certain coins or notes lose their legal tender status, and whether/when they become obsolete. Usually the central bank, the finance ministry or so will inform the media and general public about an imminent deadline, and everybody can get their "old money" exchanged. People outside the country however may not know about this - and I bet that in a few weeks we will read from collectors or hoarders who "had no idea" that after 31 Dec 2017 or 1 Jan 2018 the pre-euro notes in Cyprus and Malta cannot be redeemed any more ...

Well, tough. In such cases it is up to those "keepers" to be informed about the customs in the issuing country, and about the schedule. I also think that exceptions from "common practice" can be OK: If there are many counterfeited old £1 coins, it may make sense to keep the redemption period shorter than usual.

What is unfair in my opinion is what the Italian government did a few years ago. For about ten years, "everybody" had known that the lira redemption period would end in early 2012. But then the government decided, in early December 2011, that enough is enough and, without prior notice, the pre-euro money could not be exchanged any more. ::)

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on October 21, 2017, 01:42:20 PM
That's covered by what I call the "mamma mia principle". This is not an Italian monopoly, but it may have been invented there. The principle consists of two parts: finding out officially you are in trouble when everyone knows that already and reacting far too late. In this case, the trouble would be the threat that Italy's budget would be out of bounds according to euro rules, a problem dating from 2008.

Another fine mamma mia example I treasure was when (some decades ago) the LSE found out that Britain's budgetary instruments were so finely tuned (at the insistence of the LSE) that instead of running a full growth/inflation cycle behind and working counter-cyclically, they were running half a cycle behind and working pro-cyclically. It took politicians ages to understand that. :D

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 28, 2017, 03:02:34 PM
If any shop dares to give me one after today (and preferably not today either) then they will soon be told where they can shove it!  :D
And guess what?  This actually happened to me today! My local Co-op gave me an old £1 in change.  Stupidly I didn’t realise at first, as the 50p that came with it looked like a new one and I was more interested in that until I turned it over and saw it was just a 2015.

Anyway, within two minutes I went back to the Co-op.  The assistant remembered me but tried to make out she hadn’t given it me!  I was fuming!  She said “we haven’t got any”.  I said “new pounds?” And she answered “no, old.”  “Yes you have because you just gave it me”.  Anyway, she did swap it but didn’t really believe me.  I was true to my word though, I was about to tell her where to shove it!

OK, so she might not have realised when she gave it me, but to then make out I was the liar just takes the proverbial.  She presumably accepted it without realising and then gave it back out.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on October 28, 2017, 06:50:04 PM
OK, so she might not have realised when she gave it me, but to then make out I was the liar just takes the proverbial.  She presumably accepted it without realising and then gave it back out.

This is a common phenomenon and it's related to what you wrote at the top of this page about people not taking responsibility. Increasingly, people seem to think that if they didn't mean for something to happen, then this absolves them of both responsibility for the event and any subsequent legal or financial comeback. I see this all the time in respect of traffic accidents. No traffic accident is deliberate; if it was, it would be a case of criminal damage or (attempted) murder, not any of various motoring offences. People who drive, cycle or walk out right in front of another road user, causing a collision, are apt to start their input into the subsequent conversation with "But I didn't mean to!" and then proceed to use this as a reason not to accept responsibility for the cost of repairs to the other party's vehicle.

If you screw up, fess up and face the music.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on October 28, 2017, 07:00:42 PM
My wife beat back two attempts to pass round pounds on her. She missed a third time. Fortunately, we found a bank just before it closed on Saturday, as we are leaving the country on Sunday. During the same trip, we were also able to offload an old fiver to a bank. Strangely, it seems that my wife's foreign accent attracts demonetised stuff.

Fortunately, lots of other things went well...

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on October 28, 2017, 08:08:49 PM
During the same trip, we were also able to offload an old fiver to a bank. Strangely, it seems that my wife's foreign accent attracts demonetised stuff.
Earlier in the day, before my experience with the old pound, I was paying a cheque in at my bank (a rare occurrence these days).  I was using the machine, and a man in front of me was paying in lots of old £5 notes.  The machine didn’t appear to accept them at first but the assistant helped him. 

It seems that any bank will still accept them, but not sure how long for.  As far as I know, it’s only the Bank of England that will accept them forever.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on November 22, 2017, 03:42:03 PM
Following combinations of shapes and alloys were considered for the new 1 pound coin:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4567/37864636084_3c56be2fea_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4557/26805025809_4947bd4ddc_o.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4565/38524291116_4927ddaf20_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4523/38581556511_28a564d071_o.jpg)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on November 22, 2017, 04:35:05 PM
Interesting. I'm sure you encouraged the Mint to do this, just so you could get another "prime".  >:(

I did wonder why the Mint didn't just make the new pound a smaller version of the 2 pound coin. That would have worked. So now both the pound and the 2 pound coins constitute their own unique coin families, in terms of size/shape/metal.

Furthermore, I have read that coins with an odd number of edges roll better in machines, so the 12-sided coin had to be tweaked to make it rounder.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 22, 2017, 05:50:40 PM
I did wonder why the Mint didn't just make the new pound a smaller version of the 2 pound coin. That would have worked. So now both the pound and the 2 pound coins constitute their own unique coin families, in terms of size/shape/metal.
Possibly because it might have looked too similar to the Euro coin?  The £2 doesn’t have that issue as its metals are the other way round in comparison to the €2 coin.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on November 22, 2017, 05:56:58 PM
Interesting indeed. The first one (clockwise from upper left) hardly registers as bi-metallic. The second does better on that score, but people might still confuse it with the old pounds. Remember how the public in several countries couldn't distinguish a silver coin and a cu-ni coin of approximately the same size but with a totally different design? The third and fourth should be compared when tarnished. In this state, there's no reason to prefer one above the other.

I really like the idea of the pound as a small version of the two pounds, provided that it would still be non-round, to facilitate the exchange of old pounds for new ones. It makes much sense on several levels (including confusion with the 1 euro.)

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on November 22, 2017, 08:49:00 PM
I'd thought of the pound's bimetallic nature as another feature to add to its security, that is, making it harder to counterfeit. However, it also helped make it visually distinguishable from the round pound. And if that wasn't enough, well, they added 12 edges to the new pound, to help any Australians in the country who find it exceedingly difficult to tell any coins apart.  :D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on November 22, 2017, 09:50:53 PM
<k>
No cpmment!  :-X
Title: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on November 22, 2017, 11:03:02 PM
full article is here;
http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/22/concept-designs-for-new-1-coin-revealed-for-first-time-7097443/ (http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/22/concept-designs-for-new-1-coin-revealed-for-first-time-7097443/)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 22, 2017, 11:48:42 PM
I think the first one (top left in eurocoin’s post) would not have looked like that after a few months in circulation.  The centre would almost certainly have darkened due to tarnishing. It would effectively have been the reverse of the £2 coin and therefore the reverse of the €1 coin, both of which are nickel-brass outer.  It would have worked better than a round coin with a cupro-nickel centre.  However, I think the right choice was made.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on November 24, 2017, 12:23:50 AM
Reading the linked article, I’m surprised that they really were considering a “bronze” or “copper coloured” outer ring on two options.  If it’s accurate, and they’d gone with it, imagine how they’d look after a few months/years in circulation?  Bronze/copper colour is associated with low-value coins, why on earth would they want to introduce it on the £1?
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: SandyGuyUK on November 24, 2017, 12:38:08 AM
Reading the linked article, I’m surprised that they really were considering a “bronze” or “copper coloured” outer ring on two options.  If it’s accurate, and they’d gone with it, imagine how they’d look after a few months/years in circulation?  Bronze/copper colour is associated with low-value coins, why on earth would they want to introduce it on the £1?

Well the way that the economy is due to be going according to Spreadsheet Phil, maybe they know more than we think! ;-)

Also, re: bronze being used for low-value coins, our Gallic neighbours did of course have their very modernistic 10 Francs coin in the 70s which was bronze.  Their Belgian neighbours tried the same thing with the 20 Franc coin but their Franc was just a bit too light-weight compared with the "Heavy" France of the 5th Republic.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on November 25, 2017, 12:09:41 AM
I can think of two countries that issued high denomination copper commemoratives: Austria and Pakistan. Perhaps the UK is one of the last countries whose coins still show a strict relation between pre-1880 coin metals (copper/bronze, silver and gold) and denomination. Metal colour is way more important to distinguish coin families than metal price.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Pabitra on November 25, 2017, 05:26:40 AM
Cuba too
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on November 25, 2017, 10:20:58 AM
I can think of two countries that issued high denomination copper commemoratives: Austria and Pakistan. Perhaps the UK is one of the last countries whose coins still show a strict relation between pre-1880 coin metals (copper/bronze, silver and gold) and denomination. Metal colour is way more important to distinguish coin families than metal price.

Gold (as a colour rather than the element) is a bit of an ambiguous case, but I think there is a clear and overwhelming majority for those coin issuing entities that rank "sliver" higher than "copper". There is the French 10 francs from the 1970s/80s and the Czech 10 korún that I can immediately think of as circulation pieces that turn that on its head. It's certainly far from being just a British phenomenon.

Gold (as in the element) coins disappeared from some coinages before brass started to be used for lower-level coins, meaning that today that colour has the meaning of "low level" rather than "high level". This is true of the euro, but also of many of its predecessor currencies (e.g. franc, DM and peseta).

I would argue that "gold" colour can come anywhere in the hierarchy, but "copper" overwhelmingly comes towards the bottom.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 31, 2017, 10:22:24 AM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4733/39403571031_9370ed2540_n.jpg) (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4682/39403572561_70582b86c0_n.jpg)



Counterfeiters have now managed to copy The Royal Mint's trial piece, meaning they are now also able to copy the 12-sided pound coin. The trial pieces, which were lend to companies with vending machines to test the settings so they take the new 1 pound coin, at all times remain the property of the mint. These have to be returned before January 1, 2018.  Many pieces however were stolen and sold to collectors, who are willing to pay 70 or so pounds for it.

It is quite surprising they have so soon mastered the production of 12-sided bimetallic (though possibly electroplated) blanks with alternate reeding on the edge. Only the portrait is still of low quality. Furthermore the micro lettering is missing.

Furthermore this article (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/670364/new-pound-coin-fake-forgery-design-circulation) was released today but I very much doubt it is real. So far no counterfeit pound coins have been found in circulation. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on December 31, 2017, 12:48:26 PM
Maybe the moiré behind the queen's neck is a light effect only, but if it's on the metal, that alone would have stopped me from spending any money on this piece.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on December 31, 2017, 10:29:19 PM
It was obvious to me they would be counterfeited as how many people actually look at their coins when receiving them ???

The lack of minute lettering would prove its not genuine but who will look at every one to check? Maybe the first few weeks and then....

Change sorters will reject them but by then its too late for Joe Citizen.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on January 01, 2018, 08:59:47 AM
It was obvious to me they would be counterfeited as how many people actually look at their coins when receiving them ???

The lack of minute lettering would prove its not genuine but who will look at every one to check? Maybe the first few weeks and then....

Change sorters will reject them but by then its too late for Joe Citizen.

Correct indeed. Many of the security features in this 'high secure coin' are only things that banks or The Royal Mint will check. The only real improvement normal citizens may notice is when a counterfeit does not have the 12-sided shape but apparently counterfeiters are able to copy that without any problem (and also including the alternate reeding on the edge).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 01, 2018, 12:16:47 PM
Plus there’s still only the one reverse design so far, so that must also help the counterfeiters. 

I’m not too surprised either, the Royal Mint were never going to be ahead of the game for too long.

What next, a polymer £1 banknote?!
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: redlock on January 01, 2018, 07:23:34 PM
What next, a polymer £1 banknote?!

No, a polymer-ringed £1 coin  ;D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: andyg on January 24, 2018, 09:30:24 PM
read this elsewhere and thought it interesting....

https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/955475407016472576 (https://twitter.com/GregHands/status/955475407016472576)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on January 25, 2018, 12:11:29 PM
First, four times £1.15 is £4.60, not £5. I understand typos (boy, do I understand them!) but the mistake is made repeatedly.

Second, if I understand this fuzzy article correctly, it is possible to pay electronically, in which case a pound will go for one quid. I understand inertia, but a market in old pounds?

Third, if buying old coins above par is a black market, all coin collectors are black market operators. Does the author even understand the concept of a black market?

Draw your own conclusions.

Peter
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: chrisild on January 25, 2018, 02:55:31 PM
First, four times £1.15 is £4.60, not £5. I understand typos (boy, do I understand them!) but the mistake is made repeatedly.

But is it actually a mistake? To me this looks like a span - he heard that some people pay something between £1.15 per old pound coin and £5 for four of them ...

In any case, I think the key term here is "ahead of local elections". ;)

Christian
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: EWC on January 25, 2018, 03:44:00 PM
Its a further move against free at point of use coin, to a profit generating system favouring card and phone companies
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 25, 2018, 06:08:47 PM
First, four times £1.15 is £4.60, not £5. I understand typos (boy, do I understand them!) but the mistake is made repeatedly.
I’m reading it that’s it’s different black market sellers.  One is selling them at £1.15 each and another at four for £5.  It wouldn’t be the same seller, but the article doesn’t make it clear.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on January 25, 2018, 10:02:35 PM
Yes that would be it.  :)
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 31, 2018, 08:45:27 PM
The latest £1 coin error... the 12-sided designs struck on the old round £1 blanks...

http://blog.changechecker.org/?utm_source=chch%20site&utm_medium=menu&utm_campaign=blog%20link&utm_content=blog%20link&utm_campaign=1+pound&utm_content=post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=general&utm_term=
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on January 31, 2018, 09:43:34 PM
The latest £1 coin error... the 12-sided designs struck on the old round £1 blanks...

http://blog.changechecker.org/?utm_source=chch%20site&utm_medium=menu&utm_campaign=blog%20link&utm_content=blog%20link&utm_campaign=1+pound&utm_content=post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=general&utm_term=

Complete (explicative deleted). This is the outer ring of a new 1 pound coin of which the center was not punched out.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on January 31, 2018, 10:09:35 PM
I wasn’t sure, it’s hard to tell from the photos.  The 12-sided rim is part of the strike so still shows, but I can’t make out if the coin itself is round or 12-sided.  It does seem extremely unlikely that the Mint would make such an error so you’re probably right. 
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: milkshakespeare on February 01, 2018, 09:28:59 PM
There is also the possibility that it is not an accident, but a result of greedy hands at the mint.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 07, 2018, 11:39:46 AM
Of the approximately 235,586 2015 and 2016-dated trial pieces that were lend to vending machine manufacturers, only around 15,000 were so far returned and processed. The deadline for the return of the pieces was December 31, 2017.

The Royal Mint has contacted all manufacturers that have not returned (all of) their pieces to remind them of their obligations under the terms and conditions of the contract they have signed. This to the surprise of many collectors who thought The Royal Mint would not bother about the pieces once the deadline had passed.

The manufacturers had to pay the mint 1 pound per trial piece which would be refunded once the mint had received the trial piece back. Although The Royal Mint has always refused to provide a copy of the agreement, it is my understanding that it also contains a clause which says that manufacturers that only return a part of the lend trial pieces do not receive any of the deposit back.

Mid January of this year also monometallic 2014-dated trial pieces have suddenly appeared. Although these appear to be very rare, it is unknown how many were made. Furthermore it is unknown how these got out of the mint.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 17, 2018, 11:46:02 AM
Someone rightly pointed out that the demonetisation on Jersey is not limited to their round pound coin but that they in 1981 also issued a commemorative square 1 pound coin into circulation (mintage 200,000). That one ceased to be legal tender too on October 15 and has now been added to the overview (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,26382.msg241182.html#msg241182). Furthermore it also includes all 1 pound collectors coins issued by Jersey.

The only thing that is still missing from the overview is Saint Helena and Ascension which will soon provide me information on their plans.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 18, 2018, 10:00:33 AM
The only collector coins issued by Jersey were the circulation issues (12 parish designs and seven shipbuilding coins).  Guernsey and Alderney did both issue commemorative £1 coins in silver, but these weren’t circulation issues and weren’t produced in base metals.

In reality, Jersey’s square £1 would probably have been a non-circulating commemorative.

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 18, 2018, 10:14:38 AM
Well, there are a few Jersey collectors coins with a denomination of 1 pound (see here (https://taxfreegold.co.uk/images/2007jerseyonepounddianaprincessofwalesgoldproofrev400.jpg) for example). Nothing major of course.

As for the second part I do not know. I think the mintage is quite high for it not having been in circulation and Wikipedia mentions it was occasionally found in circulation.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on February 18, 2018, 10:52:39 AM
Here is what A.L.T. McCammon in Currencies of the Anglo-Norman Isles had to say at the time:

In 1981, exactly 1500 years after the burial of Childeric and his golden solidi in
Merovingian France (see above), one pound coins were struck for Jersey and Guernsey.
Only the specimen collectors’ pieces were struck in gold, it is true, but the reader
will now perhaps be able to see that a link - albeit a tenuous one - exists. The Jersey
pound and the Guernsey pound are quite different coins: Jersey borrowed the square design
of the old Guernsey 10-shilling piece and simultaneously commemorated the Jersey Militia
and the part it played in the Battle of Jersey 200 years ago when the French, under Baron
de Rullecourt, landed their forces for the last time in the Island, but were defeated by
the Militia and the garrison under the command of Major Peirson. Guernsey issued a
sovereign-sized coin in a gold-coloured alloy intended essentially for circulation.

...intended essentially for circulation. ???
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: <k> on February 18, 2018, 11:54:27 AM
Here is what A.L.T. McCammon in Currencies of the Anglo-Norman Isles had to say at the time:
but the reader  will now perhaps be able to see that a link - albeit a tenuous one - exists.

A link between what? The Jersey and Guernsey coins? Between those and the UK pound?

Quote
...intended essentially for circulation. ???

But the islanders decided otherwise.  :D
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on February 18, 2018, 12:08:26 PM
A link between what? The Jersey and Guernsey coins? Between those and the UK pound?

But the islanders decided otherwise.  :D

You need to see the rest of the chapter on the decimal currency. Both islands having issued the lesser denominations by D-day, then in 1981 both issued a one pound followed in 1982 with the 20p then at the time of writing (February 1984) a new series of Jersey 1p, 2p, 5p, 10p and 50p had just been realised.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 18, 2018, 02:42:00 PM
Well, there are a few Jersey collectors coins with a denomination of 1 pound (see here (https://taxfreegold.co.uk/images/2007jerseyonepounddianaprincessofwalesgoldproofrev400.jpg) for example). Nothing major of course.
That’s a horrible coin!  Looks like it was only struck in gold.  It seems to be one of many commemoratives that uses Jersey’s name but has very little connection to the island.  Similar coins have been issued with the same obverses with similar inscriptions in the same fonts - Elizabeth II Alderney / Bailiwick of Guernsey / Bailiwick of Jersey.  I count the “true” Jersey coins as the ones with “Bailiwick of Jersey” on the reverse (there are some earlier exceptions though).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 09, 2018, 08:19:47 PM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4771/38903404140_02bd8625ac_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4777/38903404200_0f7f3a6840_o.jpg)



Well known American coin designer Chris Costello submitted these designs for the public design competition of the new 1 pound coin. The left design depicts typical British symbols, the design to the right depicts the UK's contributions to the world: British popular music and culture, The Industrial Revolution, Fine Literature, and the Royalty Family in the center. Although not successful, his attempt has gotten him into talks with The Royal Mint and he is currently working on a still secret project for them.



Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on March 26, 2018, 04:53:02 PM
It'd be nice to see other designs that were submitted. I was really disappointed with the design they chose.

I think I had a design similar to the first one, the second one is kind of bizarre. A guitar, cogs and a quill..... as if the UK has only done three things ever.....

Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on March 26, 2018, 05:15:39 PM
The mint so far refuses to provide copies of the other designs although I did see another one of the 7 designs that were shortlisted for the new 1 pound coin. It only had the lettering "I AM £1"  ::)

You can see a design submitted by coin designer Michael Guilfoyle here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,20750.msg243530.html#msg243530).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: malj1 on March 26, 2018, 11:51:11 PM

...the second one is kind of bizarre. A guitar, cogs and a quill..... as if the UK has only done three things ever.....

...and shows the wrong crown for Elizabeth II  :o
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on May 01, 2018, 06:32:21 PM
At long last I got my hands on the new pound coins, 20 pieces to be precise. I was impressed with the quality, only very very small die breaks on a few of hem. Unfortuately no 'lefty' coins nor mule errors in the lot. It is only now I have finally had the pieces in hand that I realize how incredibly small that micro lettering is. The designers initials of Clark are too small in my opinion.

I was told that shops are flooded with new 1 pound coins and this seems to be right. 18 pounds change from a transaction was paid out in 18 1 pound coins. Also of interest I found the fact that my family members never found a 2 pounds coin in circulation during their trips over the last couple of years but did receive at least 4 - 1 penny coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on May 02, 2018, 09:15:35 AM
£18 change given in £1 coins?  That’s a bit excessive!  I could understand a £10 note and eight coins, though £5 notes seem more plentiful since the polymer ones came in.  Some cash machines (ATMs) now issue fivers.  £2 coins are much less likely to be given in change.  I have had a few recently but they are all older ones.  Newer-issue £2 coins seem to be scarce (but, apart from the £1, newer coins are scarce generally).

Even the cupro-nickel recovery programme appears to have stopped.  At one point the vast majority of 5p and 10p coins given in change were the steel ones (often dated 2013 or later).  Nowadays I’m getting more of the older cupro-nickel ones.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on August 08, 2018, 01:43:50 PM
According to BBC Wales, 169 million round pound coins have not yet been returned. Approximately 138 million round pound coins of the total of 1.5 billion that were returned were melted down and the alloys used to make the 12-sided counterpart.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: augsburger on August 08, 2018, 02:41:45 PM
I found four of them in my bunch of English coins in China the other week.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on August 08, 2018, 09:34:45 PM
According to BBC Wales, 169 million round pound coins have not yet been returned. Approximately 138 million round pound coins of the total of 1.5 billion that were returned were melted down and the alloys used to make the 12-sided counterpart.

In the grand scheme of things it isn’t all that many.  In 1984, 146 million were issued.  Looking at it like that, it would mean every £1 for all other dates 1983, 1985 to 2015 have been returned.  Plus that 139 million includes coins deliberately saved (I’ve probably got at least 100 myself).
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 10, 2018, 07:51:30 PM
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4845/46212350912_05ed00a58c_n.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4839/45350095385_1c0f21f614_n.jpg)



It appears that for at least 6 months there already have been counterfeit new 1 pound coins in circulation. For a long time there was uncertainty about this as none of the finders of the coins wanted to have their piece professionally examined. A photo of one of these counterfeit pieces can be found above. It has 15 reeds on the edge instead of 13, the latent image doesn't work properly, there is no micro lettering around he rim and it is lighter and larger than a genuine pound coin. One of the visible characteristics of it is the die crack under the lettering "one pound". An attempt to locate the counterfeiting ring by mapping the finds of the coins, a method that has proven its reliability in the past, was in this case to no avail. Based on the alloys used it is safe to assume the ring is located somewhere in Europe. The pieces will be XRF tested and will possibly also tested by The Royal Mint to see if they have the high security feature embedded into them. This is so far the only known type of counterfeit new 1 pound coin.

Images and research not my own, conclusion my own.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: FosseWay on December 10, 2018, 10:29:42 PM
You have to wonder why they go to the trouble of forging the £1 coin, with all its added security features, when the £2 has fewer such features and yields twice the profit.

That said, I've only ever come across one fake £2 in the wild (I've seen a handful of others in the possession of collectors) compared to literally hundreds of fake brass £1s.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on December 22, 2018, 09:45:07 PM
XRF testing has shown the counterfeit pieces are of a different metallic composition. Furthermore the pieces failed testing on a neodymium slide as can be seen here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=0&v=ni2jwirgk5o). One counterfeit piece was cut into half which proved it to be made out of a ring and core.

You have to wonder why they go to the trouble of forging the £1 coin, with all its added security features, when the £2 has fewer such features and yields twice the profit.

I agree with you. I had not expected there to be any counterfeit new 1 pound coins for a long time. Because of that combined with the fact that the quality standards at the Royal Mint have slipped miserably in recent years, I for a long time thought these were just substandard or worn genuine new 1 pound coins.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: eurocoin on February 01, 2019, 05:21:22 PM
The Royal Mint continues to refuse to say whether the 1 pound coin will again be used for commemoratives.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Alan71 on February 02, 2019, 11:02:21 AM
The Royal Mint continues to refuse to say whether the 1 pound coin will again be used for commemoratives.
It never has been a commemorative coin, but you mean rotating series depicting the individual countries of the UK.   It would be nice to see, but only if they go back to how they did it before 2008 (one coin each year with the standard design only re-appearing in the year after the series completes).  I wouldn’t want to see the standard plus two coins for a series in the same year as happened after 2008, but somehow I think that’s more likely.
Title: Re: New pound coins in 2017
Post by: Figleaf on February 02, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
I like the term "pictorials" proposed by FosseWay here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,44477.msg279663.html#msg279663). It is more generic and easier to type than "rotating series depicting the individual countries of the UK."

Peter