World of Coins

Ancient coins => Indian subcontinent: Ancient & Pre-sultanate => Topic started by: mitresh on April 28, 2013, 09:44:23 AM

Title: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: mitresh on April 28, 2013, 09:44:23 AM
Kushan Empire, Vasudeva I, 195-225 AD, Gold Dinar, 7.79g, OhPo (Oesho/Shiva) type

Obv: King, nimbate and wearing a pointed conical crown, standing facing, holding trident in left hand and sacrificing at fire altar with right hand, flames emerging from right shoulder, long sword hanging from left hip, beaded leather dress/trousers/boots, Bactrian legend around: þAONANOþAO BA ... ZOΔηO KOþANO (King of Kings Bazodeo Kushan).

Rev: Within a circular pelleted border, Two-armed Shiva standing facing, holding trident and diadem, Bull Nandi facing left behind, Bactrian legend on right: OηþO (Oesho/Shiva), tamgha at right.

Coins of Vasudeva usually bear Shiva with Bull Nandi motif depicting the increasing assimilation of the Kushans with the local Indian society and their gradual adoption of Shiva, the popular deity of Hindu pantheon. Vasudeva discontinued the wide pantheon of deities (Greek, Iranian, Egyptian etc) featured on the coins of Kanishka and Huvishka restricting himself to featuring only Shiva (except for a few rare coin types featuring other deities earlier in his reign). Even his name, real, adopted or titular, suggests the broad local influence and integration. Vasudeva replaced the standard/spear held by the King in the coins of Kanishka and Huviska with that of a trident, perhaps as homage and devotion to Shiva.

Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: THCoins on April 28, 2013, 05:27:18 PM
I was a bit reluctant to react to seeing the coin in this topic. On one side it is a very interesting discussion topic and shows a piece of history and sense of its background in a few square cm. On the other side i have a bit mixed feelings about it. It impresses a bit "flat" and misses the "zing"-factor to immediately grab me. However, i am a bit spoilt, as i have seen several Kushan gold pieces in my hands, and then they always look better. I did have this same feeling before with some of your coins. I believe you used stock photos from the auction house before. It may just be that i'm not so impressed with the imaging technique of the auction house photographer.

Despite this bit of negativity i am however very glad you showed this coin. As i already said it is a very nice depiction of an important part of living history. It is a later stage where the splendor of the kushans is still fairly intact.
Concerning the trident: I believe i've seen different types of stakes on these coins, including the spear with one sidespike type. Also on the coins with a trident it often looks different from the trident on the other side. But this may also due to the restrictions of the die cutter. So whether this reflects a religious alteration; i don't know.

Regards,

Anthony.
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: Figleaf on April 28, 2013, 10:03:02 PM
What strikes me in this coin is that Oesho and Nandi are depicted in a realistic way. There is a tendency in history to develop artistic conventions for religious pictures, that become ever more strict. One example from Christianity is that later portraits of Mary will always show her in a long, blue robe, covered by a white, hooded mantle. I find the Oesho/Nandi portrait forceful and fresh.

Peter
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on October 26, 2013, 07:40:27 PM
My specimen, which also is my first ancient India gold coin!
It is a slightly different type, notice the position of 'OHPO', around 8 o'clock.

[EDITS] I think it is Gobl 501 or 502.
This one is Gobl 504 (Right hand above alter, flames over right shoulder).  Also Mitchiner cf. 3385 (general coinage).

Mitresh's coin is Mitchiner cf. 3386 (based on posn of OHPO).  For some reason, I couldn't find Mitresh's coin in Gobl, with trident in right hand, flames above right shoulder, and OHPO at 2 o'clock.  Need to look closer.

 
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: Figleaf on October 26, 2013, 09:14:32 PM
Congratulations, cmerc. A coin to be proud of.

Peter
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on October 26, 2013, 09:18:46 PM
Congratulations, cmerc. A coin to be proud of.

Peter

Thanks!  This acquisition was actually "approved" by my girlfriend.  Normally she is hostile to all coin purchases. :D
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: THCoins on October 26, 2013, 09:40:35 PM
Congratulations ! I stay away from the gold. But seeing these two together becomes tempting.
Can't tell you the Göbl type. But indeed it must be one of the lower numbers. The later types with higher numbers all
have an extra trident next to the king above the altar.
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on October 27, 2013, 06:34:51 AM
Congratulations ! I stay away from the gold. But seeing these two together becomes tempting.

I try to stay away from gold too, gets too expensive too fast.  Btw, how do you organize and maintain a record of the ancient coins in your collection?
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: ChrisHagen on October 27, 2013, 07:21:36 AM
Btw, how do you organize and maintain a record of the ancient coins in your collection?
I'm not sure if you were just asking THCoins or the board in general, but this is what I do:

I use Google Docs to keep a document of my coins that I can access anywhere with an Internet collection. It also makes it easy to copy-paste information from websites into the document. I have done it in document form for my ancients, but I have recently tried spreadsheet form instead for my Hungarian medievals. I now regret not using a spreadsheet for my ancients to begin with!

Helvetica's Roman coin excel sheets (http://www.catbikes.ch/coinstuff/coins-ric.htm) are a great example of spreadsheets used right for keeping track of coins.
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on October 27, 2013, 07:29:56 AM
It's a question that has been bothering me for a while.  I also use an excel sheet on Google docs at present.  The disadvantage is one cannot easily include pictures.  I am developing online management system (very private facebook for coins, etc.) which can be generalized for whatever you collect.  I wonder if others would be interested in trying it out... Probably a discussion for another living room thread. 
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: Figleaf on October 27, 2013, 08:25:12 AM
While it is true that you cannot easily include pictures in Excel, you can include internet links. If you store your pictures e.g. in Flickr, you can link them to your inventory spreadsheet.

Peter
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: THCoins on October 27, 2013, 09:28:16 AM
I don't use a database for indexing. Had been working on something in Access with a front-end written in Delphi. Put that on hold because of lack of time. I have pictures of most of my coins organized in a big directory tree on hard-disk with an online back-up. Also have an excel spreadsheet with an inventory over several worksheets by category. Simple but currently enough.
 
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on October 27, 2013, 04:33:43 PM
While it is true that you cannot easily include pictures in Excel, you can include internet links. If you store your pictures e.g. in Flickr, you can link them to your inventory spreadsheet.
That's a neat idea, hadn't tried that yet. 

Put that on hold because of lack of time.
Yes, same problem here!  I know what to develop, how to develop, but not when to do it!

Also updated the Gobl and Mitchiner number for the stater above. 
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on November 16, 2013, 06:04:30 PM
Found another one to add to my collection.  However, this is not gold but a base metal coin!  Looks like a contemporary forgery, probably cast.  Slightly smaller than the real gold stater, and much lighter.  Don't know who would have been fooled by this one.  (Original coin reposted below for easy comparison.)
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: THCoins on November 16, 2013, 07:23:34 PM
Agree this is a cast fake. As long as you did not pay real money for it, it is a nice addition !
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on November 16, 2013, 08:33:08 PM
Agree this is a cast fake. As long as you did not pay real money for it, it is a nice addition !
14 euros!
Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: THCoins on November 16, 2013, 10:40:41 PM
Well that won't break the bank.
By the way, this is what you would expect as a reasonable quality genuine bronze specimen of VasuDeva I:
(AE 24 mm, 9.5 gr, Cost about 20 euros)

Title: Re: Kushan Empire: Gold Dinar of Vasudeva I
Post by: cmerc on November 16, 2013, 11:29:34 PM
I think I have a few of those.  Just have fallen waaayyyeee behind on my cataloging, esp for ancients. 

I desperately need an online collection management system.  I tried neocollect.com, and that was a bust :(  Next best option: find some time, develop/code one myself, make it free for all on WoC!