World of Coins

Other tokens and medals => Transportation tokens => Ferry, toll road and bridge tokens. => Topic started by: bagerap on November 23, 2012, 11:04:36 PM

Title: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: bagerap on November 23, 2012, 11:04:36 PM
Google has offered conflicting tales on this. Supposedly this was used circa 1950 on Dutch ships carrying emigrants to the US to avoid the export of Dutch currency. Can anyone substantiate this?
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on November 23, 2012, 11:39:26 PM
A bit earlier. Most were struck in 1947. After the second world war, the gulden was not convertible and the economy was in a shambles. Unemployment was quite high. Many chose to emigrate, rather than wait for things to get better. Emigration countries were mostly Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Netherlands Antilles and Surinam.

MSN had regular services to most of these countries and what is now Indonesia, which became unsafe quickly. They could not accept Dutch currency on board, as it was not allowed to import or export Dutch money, but they did want people to spend money on board. These tokens could be bought before boarding and spent on the ships. Values are 5, 10, 25 (square), 25 (round), 50 cents, 1, 2-1/2 gulden. A 5 gulden piece was added in 1948.

There is a second series, issued by HAL (Holland Amerika Lijn), providing service to the Americas, consisting of 5, 10 and 25 pieces. A similar series was issued by Phs. Van Ommeren, which had no relation with the inconvertibility of the gulden, but with on board vending machines. A related series was issued by the Dutch ministry of defense for soldiers training in France at a time of gulden inconvertibility.

The SMN low values and the HAL tokens can be found relatively easily. The others are difficult to find.

The trade tokens saw only a short service. As Germany recuperated (Wirtschaftswunder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirtschaftswunder)), its economy lifted the Dutch economy out of the morass and the gulden regained its convertibility.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: translateltd on November 24, 2012, 07:09:22 AM
The tokens in this series are readily found in NZ, largely on account of the extensive migration of Dutch folks to this country in the 1950s and 60s.  The "round" 25 is hard to find, however: the more common one is aluminium and square-shaped.  The only bronze 25 I've seen was sent to me from Holland about 10-15 years ago.



Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on November 24, 2012, 11:44:22 AM
The SMN tokens are also very common here in Australia.

I know a lot of Dutch people that live in this area, many of them are vegetable or flower growers. One large well-known local company export bulbs to the Netherlands.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on November 24, 2012, 12:05:47 PM
There's a sad reason that many of them were farmers. In the final stage of the second world war, two huge polders and a number of small ones were flooded; around 10% of the country was under water at the time of the nazi surrender.

Farmers in those polders knew the damaged dykes would have to be repaired, the water pumped away and the land would have been poisoned with salt where sea water was used. All this when there was neither money nor equipment available. They decided to leave, rather than wait. In fact, the dykes of Wieringermeer were repaired in December 1945 and Walcheren's dykes were repaired in February 1946. That still left 80 000 hectares to be de-silted.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: bagerap on November 24, 2012, 12:10:07 PM
Thank you one and all. This is a slightly unusual case in that I'm assuming that although  the shipping line recycled them for each voyage the tokens are freely found far away from their point of origin. Martin touched on one point of interest which is that the 25 cent changed shape. Somewhere online it states that this was because the round coin was being used as a quarter in  US vending machines although I can't see that the quantity involved would have posed a threat to the American economy of the time.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on November 24, 2012, 12:15:18 PM
I am told that rather than having been used as a quarter, it was decided that it could be used as a quarter. No vending machines involved, but the number 25 was deemed confusing.

When the US government in its ponderousness tells a mere shipping line to change the shape of its token, the shipping line changes the shape of its token.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Afrasi on November 24, 2012, 01:43:34 PM
Many thanks! :D One question more answered about my Nederlandse penningen.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on December 05, 2012, 06:21:28 AM
A few more images of the SMN tokens; in aluminium, a huge 250 Boordgeld at 38mm; a 100 at 31mm; the square 25, 20.2mm and the bronze 10 at 20mm.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: bagerap on January 07, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
I recently put this piece on ebay at £2.99. I was surprised when it sold for £28.00.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: translateltd on January 07, 2013, 09:56:34 PM
I recently put this piece on ebay at £2.99. I was surprised when it sold for £28.00.

I did say it was hard to find :-)  That's a good price all the same.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: bagerap on January 07, 2013, 10:55:32 PM
It went to Australia.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Afrasi on January 07, 2013, 11:09:18 PM
Anywhere near Melbourne? ;D
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on January 07, 2013, 11:10:01 PM
I was tempted as I only have those I have shown above but it got a little pricey.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: bagerap on January 07, 2013, 11:55:45 PM
Anywhere near Melbourne?
Nope, other end of the country.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 11, 2014, 02:12:21 AM
Another is on eBay today this too is a little pricy but very tempting.

NETHERLANDS HOLLAND AMSTERDAM BOORDGELD SMN 500 (5 GUILDERS) BIMETALLIC

NV STOOMV MIJ (Amsterdam Steamship Society) aluminium in copper annulus 38mm, edge lettered.

SEMPER MARE NAVIGANDUM (the oceans will always be navigated)

 Perhaps Bimat will like this one too. ;D
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on March 11, 2014, 09:39:34 AM
This is the key to completing the series. I am surprised you don't have the 5 cent, Mal. It is the easiest to find.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 11, 2014, 10:27:04 AM
I hadn't noticed a 5 cent was included, mainly concentrated on watching out for the 50 cent.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 22, 2014, 10:26:10 AM
I now have the BOORDGELD 500 token.

SMN rev. N.V. STOOMV. MIJ. "NEDERLAND" AMSTERDAM BOORDGELD 500 edge inscription SEMPER MARE NAVIGANDUM

Bi-metal Aluminum + Bronze 37.9mm.

20,000 of the 500 cents issued:
1948: 10,000
1949 10,000
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on March 22, 2014, 02:57:00 PM
Congratulations, Mal. I like to use this series to argue that there is no sharp border between coins and tokens. The Canadian bank tokens are a further case to make this point. Surprisingly, many people find this somewhat difficult to digest.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Kushi on March 22, 2014, 10:53:06 PM
Mal, is there a difference between the 1948 and 1949 strikings of the 500 cent (five guilder) token?
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 22, 2014, 11:23:46 PM
Mal, is there a difference between the 1948 and 1949 strikings of the 500 cent (five guilder) token?

I am unaware of of any difference. I found the information here (http://www.catawiki.com/catalog/tokens-medals/types/board-money/2062963-boordgeld-5-gulden-1948-smn) where it was translated from the Dutch.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 22, 2014, 11:48:17 PM
An interesting page giving details of these and also some paper issues.

Quote via Google translate:

After the liberation, there was a huge amount of so-called war of money in circulation, including the amount of black money was huge. Obviously, there was no bank guarantee towards all that bad money.
The ban on the export of Dutch money would provide for international shipping for a big problem because it is precisely in this period carry many ships on the Dutch East Indies for transporting large numbers of soldiers, emigrants and returnees.
During these trips, it was important that there is a payment for hands would be so that they could do with the CADI and / or the ship's store, the necessary purchases on board had to be for certain services such as hairdressing and paid the photographer.
There was therefore an "Emergency Payment Instrument" created and this new money was aptly named board money, or also ship money.

Read more here (http://blog.seniorennet.be/waaroemni/archief.php?startdatum=1316988000&stopdatum=1317592800)
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on March 23, 2014, 12:15:37 AM
Yes, a currency reform was undertaken right after the liberation, but it had largely ended when the boordgeld pieces were made. In 1948, the currency was unconvertible, therefore could not be exported - pure Colbertism - and the shipping line companies needed the money to lift it off the emigrants while they were on the ships.

Yes, there was a wave of emigration, but it was not towards the Netherlands East Indies, but towards the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. The NEI was an area in turmoil.

Not sure about the shipping of soldiers, but I know that there were plenty liberated KNIL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_East_Indies_Army) soldiers around in the NEI and the Korean crisis was looming (the Netherlands was an early UN member), making the NEI a less likely destination for troop transports.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 23, 2014, 02:29:40 AM
I do know of and have met several families that were repatriated at that time from NEI to Australia where they settled, some were Dutch soldiers with their wives and families.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Kushi on March 25, 2014, 06:58:36 PM
Frits J. Bingen wrote an article "Ship's Money" for The Fare Box, in March, 1974, with the mintages for the SMN series.

2.50 F.    50,000
1.00        75,000
0.50        50,000
0.25        44,000
0.10      190,000
0.05      170,000

Also given are the mintage figures for the Holland America Line tokens.

25 cent    10,000
10            12,000
 5             10,000

All 67 years of The Fare Box are available online at vectuirst.org, but at present only for members of the American Vecturist Association.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on April 26, 2016, 04:54:51 AM
I have just noticed the listing only gives the one 25 cent mintage of 44,000

This may be for the square aluminium piece or the withdrawn round bronze 25 cent? ...see Reply #2

I bought the 25 cent bronze for 3 euro so not as nice as that at the head of this thread. I now also have the 5 cent token.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on April 26, 2016, 11:09:11 PM
Discussion on coins and tokens is now here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,35236.0.html).

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on February 09, 2017, 12:02:17 AM
I have now completed my set of these with the 50
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on February 09, 2017, 09:20:21 AM
Pretty good, Malcolm. Now, you can concentrate on the two other "Boordgeld" series. The HAL series is slightly more difficult to find, but the Van Ommeren series is hard to find. While the tokens are Dutch, I'd argue that they are related to Australian history through the ships' destinations.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on February 09, 2017, 12:27:14 PM
The Holland America Line tokens would be interesting to find but it will be difficult to sort them from the modern casino issues when seen in advertising. The three tokens can be seen here (http://www.hollandamericaline.us/casino-tokens/) along with some misinformation about their purpose.

The Van Ommeren tokens appear to be a little different, Catawiki (https://www.catawiki.com/catalog/tokens-medals/types/ship-money/2062975-boordgeld-1-gulden-1964-van-ommeren) has this information: (Translated from the Dutch)

Not because of the currency reform after the Second World War, but because of the planned automation of the bar in the evenings, the firm Ommeren in 1964 and 1968, coins made of 10 cents, 25 cents, 1 euro   gulden and 2.5 guilders. Van Ommeren has surrendered the remaining medals around 1975 by the Royal Mint.

They show just this one type.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on May 16, 2017, 03:37:49 AM
The Holland America Line tokens would be interesting...

HOLLAND AMERIKA LIJN rev. SCHEEPSPENNING SHIP'S CURRENCY 1948 in three denominations 25, 24mm; 10, 19.9mm; and 5 Cents, 15.9mm. all are copper.

The letters NASM in the flag stand for Nederlands Amerikaanse Stoomvaart Maatschappij = Netherlands-American Steamship Company
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on May 22, 2017, 09:05:29 AM
Excellent, malj1! Another step closer. It looks like they are in nice condition as well. The Philips van Ommeren series is the most difficult to find. To an extent, the series of "plastic" tokens issued by the Dutch Ministry of Defence for soldiers exercising in La Courtine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Courtine#La_Courtine_military_camp) is connected to these series, as they were issued in the same years and for the same reason: the inconvertibility of the guilder.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on May 22, 2017, 03:05:59 PM
Frits J. Bingen wrote an article "Ship's Money" for The Fare Box, in March, 1974, with the mintages for the SMN series.

-March 1974
-Page 37-
SHIP'S MONEY =
By F .J . Bingen
Collectors of world transportation tokens probably know that right after World
War II, two sets of ship's money tokens were issued in the Netherlands. The reason
was that, immediately following the war, there were restrictive currency regulations
which strictly limited the amount of money travellers could take with them out of the
country. This restriction was especially annoying to travellers on board ship. Accordingly
several European steamship companies issued their own "money," or tokens.
The Steamship Company Netherland (Stoomvaart Maatschappij Nederland - S.M.14.) and the
Holland America Line (Nederlandsche Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij Holland
Amerika Lijn) at first used paper money of their own issue. Upon coming on board,
Passengers were required to change their own money for the ship money, and during the
voyage they could only use the ship money for any payments required of them. The
S M N was the first company that introduced its own coins, as the paper currency did
not last very long, and soon became very dirty. Only the paper currency of 10 and 25
guilders remained in use. Between 1947 and 1959 there were struck on the Rijks Munt
(the State Mint) in Utrecht the following numbers of ship money coins:

50,000 2.50 F. aluminium Smith 909 I
75,000 1.00 F. " Smith 909 H
50,000 .50 F. Smith 909 r
44,000 .25 F. bronze Smith 909 F
190,000 .10 F. " Smith 909 E
170,000 .05 F. " Smith 909 D

Inasmuch as the original 25 cents in bronze was of about the same size as the U.S.
25C coin, there was put into use after some years--that is to say in December, 1953, --
an entirely different coin, the square aluminium piece of which until 1959 were struck
100,000 pieces (Smith 909 K). Also in December, 1953, the Mint in Utrecht started with
the striking of a 5 guilder Piece in the same size as the 211 guilder and to differentiate
it from this coin it was made of bronze with an aluminium centre of 27mm (Smith
909 J). Until 1959, 20,000 of these coins were struck.
The Holland America Line soon following the example of the S M N, but only for
the lower denominations. In 1948 the Mint in Utrecht struck:

10,000 25C bronze
12,000 10C bronze
10,000 5c bronze

But the denomination of these coins is in U.S. dollars and cents! For the higher values
the H A L remained using Paper currency. Soon after 1959 the reason for the use
of these special coins was eliminated. Foreign money could be used more freely, and
in the early sixties there was no longer any need for the use of ship money coins.
However, on the ships of the S M N the coins remained, just for the convenience of
passengers, for some years. But this ended about 1965, and now some denominations are
very difficult to find.
One would think this was the end of ship's money altogether. But a recent visit
to the Mint at Utrecht brought to light an entirely new set of this money, issued by
Pilips van Omneren N.V. (Ltd.), one of the bigger ship owners in Rotterdam. Struck by
the Mint are the following nieces:

V 0 (in monogram)
WM 26 Sd Phs. Van Ommeren N.V. .Rotterdam . 250
WM 23 Sd  "   "   "   "  " " 100
Bz 20 Sd  "   "   "   "  " " 25
Bz 18 Sd "   "   "   "  "  " 10

The number of these struck was: (250) 4,130 in 1964, 1,026 in 1968 (total 5,156).
(100) 8,122 in 1964, 2,032 in 1968 (total 10,154). (25) 10,426 in 1964, 4,066 in 1968
(total 14,492). (25) 10,494 in 1964, 7,960 in 1968 (total 18,454).

These tokens are valid only on the ships of V O. The crew gets a certain amount of
these coins every week, and payments in the canteen can only be made with these coins.
No other currency is accepted. The company states that, in this way, there is no
need for them to bring on board any current Netherlands coins. Besides this, the
Captain can, if anyone should use too much spirits, correct this in a certain way by
giving him less ship's money! I have tried to secure some sets of these nice pieces
for my fellow collectors, but I mostly regret that the company, though willing to
give me any information needed, did not wish to dispose of more than the two sets
they sent me. Moreover they told me that is of no use to write them directly, as
they will not answer any requests for their tokens.
Yet another token, which could be ship's money, came into my possession recently:

(FLAG WITH J.& A.V.D.S.)
B 22 Sd 1 Lire

I must confess this token puzzles me completely. The flag with the initials J. & A.
V.D.S. is the flag of a very big old Netherlands ship company for inland navigation,
called J. and A. Van der Schuyt, a company of which it is, however, absolutely certain
that they never had any lines out of the boundaries of the Netherlands. The finding
of a token of this firm with the Italian denomination of 1 Lire puts me therefore in
a puzzle, for which I do not have a solution. The company in question does not exist
anymore. The three biggest companies for inland navigation have been united in the
S.B.S. (Van der Schuyt - Van den Boom and Stanfries) and I have written to this firm.
In their very kind reply they did not give me an answer to my question. Still there
is one link between van der Schuyt and Italy! In a book written by Dr. J.M. Fuchs
and published in 1955, which covers the history of inland navigation in the Netherlands
in the last 100 years, the writer tells us that in 1909 there were built for
Van der Schuyt two big new steamships. These new ships seemed to have been of a
striking beauty. They were put into use in 1910 and soon after their maidentrip a
Netherlands broker made a bid for the two ships on behalf of an Italian steamship
company. This bid was so high that Van der Schuyt, being apparently a good businessman,
accepted at once. The proceeds of this transaction were sufficient for the
building of four ships as big and as beautiful as the two ships they had sold to
Italy! Could there be any connection between this deal and my Netherlands/Italian
token? Was the token used on the voyage of these two ships from the Netherlands to
Italy? Or did the new owner of the ships, whose name is not known, like the flag of
Van der Schuyt so much that he put it on his own tokens? The only thing that seems
certain in this strange case is that we have here a piece of ship's money that, according
to the Italian denomination, is probably of unidentified Italian origin.
Speaking of ship's money, I shall take this opportunity to comment on the story
about the 25 pfennig token of the Norddeutscher Lloyd of Bremen, on page 42 of The
Farebox of April 1973. It is a nice story, but I'd like to know who it was that
"identified" this token. To begin with I draw the attention of our readers to the
listing of a similar 10 Pfennig token in The Fare Box, 1968, page 94. This 10 Pfennig
token is in my collection, and I reported it to Mr. Smith in a letter of January
23, 1960. The listing, however, is not correct, and not in accordance with my report.
On the reverse the wording is not "Nur Fur Diese Reise Gultig", but rather
"Z22 Nur Fur Diese Reise Gultig" . So apart from the size, denomination, and number
(R6 and Z22) the tokens are fully alike. Nay I say that I believe the explanation in
the article is not correct. Even in those days a walking tour from a passenger ship
would cost more than 10 or 25 Pfennig (the equivalent of 2½C or 6C U.S.). In my opinion
these tokens are common ship's tokens which could be used to pay for expenses
aboard the ships of the Norddeutscher Lloyd, when on their way to the U.S.A., in the
same way one could get for the beer token 909 B of the same company a quarter of a
litre of beer and for token 909 F half a litre of beer. It is probable --but for this
there is no confirmation--these tokens were used right after World War I, for the same
reason the Netherlands ship money was used in 1948. A letter of the still existing
Norddeutscher Lloyd confirms only that the said tokens are ship's money, but I know
that one cannot always depend on such latter-day communications. But one thing is
certain: let us congratulate the person who acquired the piece, for they are extremely
hard to get!

free download from: www.vecturist.com
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on March 29, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
 This page (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Phs._van_Ommeren) has now been completed with the full set of the PHS van Omneren tokens.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on March 29, 2019, 09:33:14 AM
 :thankyou: :rock:
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Henk on March 31, 2019, 04:50:05 PM
A comment about the SMN series of tokens. The edge inscription: * SEMPER * MARE * NAVIGANDUM, is present not only on the bi-metal 500 token but also on the round Aluminium ones (50, 100 and 250). Also the SMN logo could also mean Stoomvaart Maatschappij Nederland which I think is more likely.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on March 31, 2019, 10:39:22 PM
Looking at the bottom of the share pictured on WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Stoomvaart_Maatschappij_Nederland), I find a different logo (click on the pictur to enlarge it.) The share dates from 1930, though, so the logo may have been updated after the second world war. Yet, if there were Americans on board also, which seems not unlikely, they would have broken their tongue on the Dutch sounds. Maybe the company let their clients decide what SMN stood for?

Found the same logo (https://data.collectienederland.nl/search/?view=grid&q=patroontekening+Stoomvaart+Maatschappij+Nederland) on a pattern design for textiles. Found a different (in oval) logo on tableware and a letter opener Googling around. In other words, not a logo, but a design used on board to indicate ownership.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on April 01, 2019, 12:53:09 AM
I tend to agree with Henk, "Stoomvaart Maatschappij Nederland" seems to be the most likely interpretation of the logo.

The link you provided to the pattern design for textiles appears to agree.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Henk on June 30, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
From the documents in the archive of the Mint in Utrecht I have prepared the following table with the number of SMN ships tokens struck in each year. The quantities listed are in thousands.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on June 30, 2019, 02:21:57 PM
That is very useful list to see.

I am surprised to see the aluminium 25 cent was first issued in 1953 a long while after the bronze 25 cent issued in 1947 and 1949.

The bronze 25 cent was said to have been used in slot machines and the US government had protested but it took a while before it was changed.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on July 09, 2019, 01:44:23 PM
To my amazement I saw an advert on TV the other evening for the Holland America Line  :o


Holland America Line is a British/American-owned cruise line, a subsidiary of Carnival Corporation & plc. Originating in the Netherlands, the company moved its headquarters to Seattle, Washington, United States. Wikipedia
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Henk on July 09, 2019, 02:45:31 PM
I found an aricle about ships money (in Dutch) and a Dutch site dedicated to it. The links are:

Article: http://debeeldenaar.nl/wp-content/uploads/archief/De-Beeldenaar/De-Beeldenaar_1993_02.pdf (pages 330 - 338)

Site: Site over boordgeld datw erd gebruikt op de troepenschepen. (https://www.boordgeld.nl/index.php)
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on July 10, 2019, 12:45:15 AM
The second link is a wonderful site where I shall have to spend much more time a little later today.

The first link I downloaded the PDF and shall have to translate the part regarding the ships money.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 24, 2019, 06:20:52 PM
Can anyone post a scan of the Smith 1967 catalog listing of Netherlands Boordgeld tokens ?

Thank you !

Lou Salerno

Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on July 24, 2019, 07:19:52 PM
We can do much better than that. Our own catalogue is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Netherlands) and the discussion - with some great background research - is here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,18791.0.html). Enjoy.

Find more of our token catalogues here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Main_Page).

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 24, 2019, 07:29:09 PM
Thank you, Peter ! Great photos and descriptions.

I actually would also like the Smith listing with catalog numbers if anyone can post it.

Best regards,

Lou

Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 24, 2019, 08:21:32 PM
Well, after reading all of the excellent material and going to The Fare Box, I think I have the listings correct:

Thanks so much to Kushi and Malj1 for the helpful table listing from Bingen’s article.

From that article in The Fare Box March 1974, I expanded the posted table for myself, combining some of the text notes into the table:

20,000 5.00 F bi metal “ Smith 909 J
50,000 2.50 F. aluminium “ Smith 909 I
75,000 1.00 F. " Smith 909 H
50,000 .50 F. “ Smith 909 G
100,000   25 F. “ Smith 909 K (square)
44,000 .25 F. bronze Smith 909 F
190,000 .10 F. " Smith 909 E
170,000 .05 F. “Smith 909 D

I really appreciate everyone’s help !

If I can find a 50 token, I should have the whole set.

Best regards,

Lou
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on July 24, 2019, 09:29:32 PM
Don't worry. The 50 is relatively easy. The ƒ5,- is the key of the series. The HAL  tokens are not too difficult either, but the Van Ommeren tokens are hard to get.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 24, 2019, 09:41:28 PM
Thank you, Peter.

Actually I just bought this 5F on eBay - about 12 USD with shipping.

Keep those comments and suggestions coming - much appreciated !!!
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on July 24, 2019, 10:28:58 PM
USD 12 is OK. The problem isn't the price, but finding them, so get them while you can. There is not that much demand for them. Wrongly so. They are witnesses of the sort of history the Hitler channel doesn't cover and it's up to collectors like you to discover and preserve them.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 24, 2019, 10:40:55 PM
Thank you, Peter.

Exactly the way I feel. I have a strong interest in Bridge, Canal, ferry, and ship tokens and am trying to acquire some pieces of interest.

Another one I’m looking at is a United Steamship Co tokenon eBay for about 230USD.

I have thoroughly read Malcom’s post on it and am seriously considering it,however time and funds aren’t limitless.

I really like this forum and appreciate all the help I’m getting.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on July 25, 2019, 12:06:55 AM

Another one I’m looking at is a United Steamship Co token on eBay for about 230USD.

I have thoroughly read Malcolm’s post on it and am seriously considering it,however time and funds aren’t limitless.

These are also to be found on WoT here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/South_Africa) We perhaps need to add a little more information there.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 25, 2019, 12:10:04 AM
Much appreciated, Malcolm !

I’v learned a great deal from your posts.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 30, 2019, 12:42:09 AM
I just yesterday found this set of VanOmmeren tokens on eBay, so I bought them.

Strangely, no one has a complete set of H.A.L. Tokens.

Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on July 30, 2019, 01:41:24 AM

Strangely, no one has a complete set of H.A.L. Tokens.

?  I have a set at  Reply #31 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,18791.msg246751.html#msg246751) plus another 10c.

I also saw another 10c on eBay today

They are all on WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Holland_Amerika_Lijn) too.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on July 30, 2019, 02:26:01 AM
Thanks, Malcolm.

Yes, I meant that no one on eBay has a complete set for sale. I did see the two or three 10c ones.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on August 08, 2019, 12:46:05 PM
To my amazement I saw an advert on TV the other evening for the Holland America Line  :o

I managed to get a photo of the advert tonight, I had forgotten you can pause live TV these days!
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on August 08, 2019, 02:10:12 PM
From WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/Holland_Amerika_Lijn):

HAL experienced increasing competition from aviation. In response, the company changed its core business to tourist cruises, which is quintessentially a US activity. The company bought US travel company Westours Inc. Headquarters was moved to New York and the name was shortened to HAL in 1971. In 1975, the freight division was sold. In 1983, Headquarters moved to Seattle, into Westours' HQ.

HAL, now Holland America Line, was bought by Miami cruise company Carnival Corporation in 1989. The ships remain registered in Rotterdam. In 2007, HAL opened a European head office in Rotterdam.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on August 08, 2019, 02:20:56 PM
That leads us to: Carnival Cruise Line

Carnival Cruise Line is an international cruise line with headquarters in Doral, Florida. Its logo is the funnel like the funnels found on their ships, with red, white and blue colors. The funnels are shaped like a whale's tail. Wikipedia

Parent organization: Carnival Corporation & plc
Headquarters: Miami, Florida, United States
Number of employees: 3,900 - Shoreside; 33,500 - Shipboard
Founder: Ted Arison
Founded: 11 March 1972, Miami, Florida, United States
Subsidiaries: Costa Cruises, Holland America Line N.V., HAL Antillen N.V., Sunshine Shipping Corporation Ltd. ("Sunshine")

And from Numista one of their tokens.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on August 10, 2019, 03:05:49 AM
This entry on WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/VCK_logo) is at odds with this page on Catawiki (https://www.catawiki.com/catalog/tokens-medals/types/ship-money/7634947-vck?area=7ffd42ffe44896d292a18b11dbb4f25c217c3073)

Is it a coffee token rather than ships money for a cruise line?

Note too this is same both sides. I find the catalogue entry unclear on this point.

(this image is from Catawiki so we can't use)

Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on August 10, 2019, 04:10:42 AM
Hi, Malcolm

You probably already know this, but “verenigde cargadoors kantoken” translates as “United Shipping Agents Offices”.

It certainly could be a coffee token for use on board ships.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on August 10, 2019, 09:13:47 AM
See link to WoT above; this says 'United Ship brokers Office, a combination of shipping agents and brokers from Amsterdam and Rotterdam'
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on August 10, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
Kantoren (offices) is a typo in Kooij. The official name is kantoor (https://www.bloomberg.com/profile/company/4040501Z:NA) (office).

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: jezuss on August 10, 2019, 11:19:02 PM
This entry on WoT (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/wiki/VCK_logo) is at odds with this page on Catawiki (https://www.catawiki.com/catalog/tokens-medals/types/ship-money/7634947-vck?area=7ffd42ffe44896d292a18b11dbb4f25c217c3073)

Is it a coffee token rather than ships money for a cruise line?

Note too this is same both sides. I find the catalogue entry unclear on this point.


in the catalog "2z:" means both sides are the same.
kb450.1 has the vck logo on both sides.
kb450.2 has the ship with logo on both sides.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on August 11, 2019, 01:07:27 AM
Thank you Jezuss I don't understand the Dutch unfortunately.

I will amend the listing on WoT

Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Lou Salerno on August 11, 2019, 03:01:34 AM
I just today received my set of Van Ommeren tokens, so once I receive the 50c Amsterdam Boordgeld Token, I’ll have both complete sets.

Henk was nice enough to sell me the 50c. Much appreciated !!!!

Still looking for a set of the H.A.L. Tokens. There is a 10c currently listed on eBay but not the others.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: malj1 on September 18, 2019, 12:41:23 PM
Today I found Numista (https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces129798.html) has a Stoomvaart Maatschappij Nederland medal to commemorate the 50-years existence of the Stoomvaart Maatschappij Nederland on 13 may 1920.

Another to seek!






Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on September 18, 2019, 04:27:57 PM
Neat medal. I think the ship is SS Johan de Witt. Constructed in Amsterdam, 1916-19, delivered 1920, capacity around 1000 passengers, new bow 1933 (first bow shown on medal), converted to troop transport in Sydney, 1940, sold 1948 and renamed Neptunia, scrapped 1958.

Peter
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Henk on September 18, 2019, 05:02:38 PM
This medal is by J.C. (Johannes Cornelis) Wienecke (1872-1945). It is signed "J.C.Wienecke" and was struck at 's Rijks Munt, Utrecht. It has the caduceus mark of this mint on the edge. The medal is listed as Number 188 in: Johannes Cornels Wienecke 1972 - 1945 medailleur en stempelsnijder, Redactie Marie-Astrid Pelsdonk. Stichting Nederlandse Penningkabinetten (2017) ISBN 978-94-927-7101-8.

The description in this catalog states that the steamer Jan Pieterszoon Coen is depicted. The quantity struck is 3 pieces in gold, 300 in silver and 2300 in bronze.
Title: Re: Boordgeld or ship money
Post by: Figleaf on September 18, 2019, 10:02:56 PM
Though they are not mentioned as sister ships, Coen and De Witt look like sister ships. They were built a few years apart on the same yard (Nederlandsche Scheepsbouw Mij., Amsterdam). Both had their bow reconstructed. I found a picture of Coen with the old bow and sure enough, it's like the steamer on the medal. However, the picture of De Witt above is undated. It is quite possible that the bow looked the same as on Coen before it was reconstructed.

I think there is good case for the ship on the medal being De Witt, simply because it was delivered later, so that at the time of the jubilee, it was the latest NSM ship. You would expect that on such an occasion, the company would have wanted to show their latest ship, not the penultimate one.

Peter