World of Coins

Collecting coins => Fantasies => Topic started by: Afrasi on October 20, 2012, 06:45:47 PM

Title: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Afrasi on October 20, 2012, 06:45:47 PM
The countermark on the following coin is from the Îles Glorieuses in the Indic Ocean (NW of Madagascar). Host coin is 5 Francs of France. "C" standing for Coconut(s) or Copra.
This one is also not in my collection and unknown to any catalogue.
All kind of comments appreciated!
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on October 20, 2012, 09:55:58 PM
Glorious !

 8) I shall keep looking.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: akona20 on October 20, 2012, 11:07:06 PM
The C possibly stands for Hippolyte Caltaux who was the first settler on the islands and had a coconut plantation. But perhaps issued before it became a possession of France.

These little islands are rather magnificent.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Afrasi on October 21, 2012, 12:20:31 AM
SOFIM worked there until 1958, the youngest host coin is from 1953 (for Juan de Nova from 1955). So we have a very small possible span for these tokens. I think Hippolyte Caltaux (born 1847) has ceded earlier. The "C" standing for coconuts or copra makes sense comparing it with the P (phosphate) from Juan de Nova.
Of course are the pictures of the islands manificent. But there is a 15-men-garrison on the island belonging to the detachement of the French Foreign Legion on Mayotte (Detachement de Légion Etrangère à Mayotte) as Madagascar, the Comoroes and the Seychelles also claim these islands for themselves. These 15 men are changed after some weeks, as the soldiers would become crazy being longer off any "civilization" ...
The nominals for this token coinage are 50 ct, 1 Fr, 2 Fr, 5 Fr, 10 Fr and 20 Fr. The tokens probably had this worth, too, as all countermarks were made beside the denomination, except the pieces of 50 ct, which were too small to do so.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: maxmissy on October 24, 2012, 04:57:02 PM
From 1952 till 1968, SOFIM ( " Société Françaises des Iles Malgaches " ) worked phosphat mines in Juan de Nova island and collected coprah in Les Glorieuses island ( Both islands belonging to " Iles Eparses " )
The worker's life conditions ( corporal punishments, emprisonment, etc..) were such that an official investigation was launched by the french authorities, then triggering the dissolution of the company in 1968.
During the period, all the products had to be bought from the company store on the island : We can imagine that the countermarking was a way to "freeze" the money of the workers. As said above by Afrasi, the P means probably " Phosphats " and the C " Coprah "
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: maxmissy on October 28, 2012, 01:45:19 PM
Would it be possible to get pictures ( obverse & reverse, of course ) of the two coins which have been signaled ?
Did you hear only about these two coins or are there other ones ?
I am trying to find a way to go further, but it is not really easy ...!
I am wondering if these countermarks could have been done with a sealing tool ; phosphats and coprah were put in large bags which could have been sealed ( generally with lead ). The pictures could be interesting to better understand.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on October 28, 2012, 10:21:47 PM
I have located an article (http://worldcoinnews.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/juan-de-nova-island-local-coinage.html) in World coins on all the Juan de Nova Island pieces; here is one of the images displayed as no doubt the page will disappear soon.

Madagascar, French and French colonial coins were so counter-marked.

(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111105015/http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/227/pcmk.jpg)

From there...
Hilmar J. Herzberg numismatist living in Madagascar, just reported these nice countermarked tokens, as having circulated in Juan de Nova Island in the 1950s.
These tokens were countermarked probably in the mid-1950s from the SOFIM (Societe Francaise des Iles Malgaches) operating phosphate (guano) mines on the island from 1900 to 1968, when all economic activities ended. The six-edged seal of 8.50 mm bears the companies name in the center, the islands name on the bottom and a "P" on top, probably standing for "phosphate". The number of tokens issued must have been rather limited, because only a few workers from Seychelles, Mauritius and Comoros were employed to mine the guano found on this flat island. Further research is under way.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on October 28, 2012, 10:32:54 PM
Another page has an article (http://worldcoinnews.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/glorioso-islands-local-coinage.html) on the Glorioso Islands local coinage:

Madagascar, French and French colonial coins were so counter-marked.

(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111105156/http://imagizer.imageshack.us/img716/5544/ccmk.jpg)

From there...
Hilmar J. Herzberg numismatist living in Madagascar, just reported these nice countermarked tokens, as having circulated in Glorioso Islands in the 1950s. These tokens were countermarked probably in the mid-1950s from the SOFIM (Societe Francaise des Iles Malgaches) operating coconut plantations on the islands from 1907-1958, when all economic activities ended. The round seal of 8.50 mm bears the company name in the center, the islands name on the bottom and a "C" on top, probably standing for "coco" or "copra".
The number of tokens issued must have been rather limited, because only a few workers from Seychelles, Mauritius and Comoros were employed to harvest up to 80 tons of copra every year. Further research is under way.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Figleaf on October 29, 2012, 12:00:33 AM
That article is dated October 2012. Odd, that nothing was heard of these for 60 years and suddenly a few turn up at the same time. Maybe the "further research" turns up a reason.

Peter
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: africancoins on October 29, 2012, 12:25:43 AM
The information on that other page is evidently from the same source as Afrasi's information - not a separate discovery.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: maxmissy on October 29, 2012, 09:18:01 PM
Can smbdy provide a picture of the reverse ?
( In order to check which kind of print is made on this side )
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Figleaf on October 29, 2012, 11:27:09 PM
Patience, maxmissy. The only one who has one is afrasi and he is travelling (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,187.msg123346.html#msg123346).

Peter
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Afrasi on November 02, 2012, 10:43:46 AM
Back again with many metro tokens from Tiflis and Yerevan and some nice finds in my letter box. Now I have two pieces in my own hand. The tokens are - according to the stamp - somewhat concave, but the stamps did not hurt Marianne's face too much. ;-)
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: maxmissy on November 03, 2012, 05:20:44 PM
Very interesting coins !
Having seen the last ones, I do not think anymore that the prints have been made with a sealing tool, but with a "classic " stamp.
I think that a lot of token collectors ( me too ) will now search to get some ones.
Afrasi, thanks a lot for the pictures
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on January 09, 2013, 10:50:13 AM
I have bought several of these, some are still winging their way to me from Germany. Getting more expensive with each new listing. Now another seller has appeared on the scene with another twenty coins for sale, this time from a seller in Austria; ten Glorioso islands and ten Juan de Nova Island.

I shall stop buying.   

Do I smell something?  ???
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on January 09, 2013, 11:01:43 AM
Quote
The nominals for this token coinage are 50 ct, 1 Fr, 2 Fr, 5 Fr, 10 Fr and 20 Fr. The tokens probably had this worth, too, as all countermarks were made beside the denomination, except the pieces of 50 ct, which were too small to do so.

In fact I now have a 50 Centimes [obv ETAT FRANCAIS]
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: andyg on January 09, 2013, 07:29:28 PM
I have bought several of these, some are still winging their way to me from Germany. Getting more expensive with each new listing. Now another seller has appeared on the scene with another twenty coins for sale, this time from a seller in Austria; ten Glorioso islands and ten Juan de Nova Island.

I shall stop buying.   

Do I smell something?  ???

My thoughts are that it's a nice little idea, to get some common French coins and turn them into something valuable.  Where have these been the last 40 years or so ?  Why now ?
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: gerard974 on January 15, 2013, 03:57:28 PM
Hello
Is not a token but is the house of Mister caltaux on Juan de Nova island take by a friend who is going  with the French army
Best regards  Gerard
(http://i17.servimg.com/u/f17/14/89/20/87/juan10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=855&u=14892087)
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Afrasi on January 15, 2013, 06:18:33 PM
This house is also on a postal stamp of the TAAF.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: malj1 on January 15, 2013, 08:50:48 PM
I now have two Reunion coins, 5 and 20 Francs, with the Juan de Nova island SOFIM counter-mark. As they are still on the high seas I am posting the eBay images.

Gerard, pleased to see the house  of Mister Caltaux.
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: Afrasi on January 15, 2013, 10:08:01 PM
Bonsoir Gerard,

May I use the Photo of the Maison Patureau of Monsieur Caltaux for my gallery of African Tokens, please?

Cordialement, Alexandre
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: gerard974 on January 16, 2013, 03:06:01 AM
Bonsoir Gerard,

May I use the Photo of the Maison Patureau of Monsieur Caltaux for my gallery of African Tokens, please?

Cordialement, Alexandre

Hello Alexandre

No problems for the photo

Best regards  Gerard
Title: Re: another unknown token from nearly unknown islands
Post by: gerard974 on January 17, 2013, 06:47:49 AM
Hello
I have finded these topic from SOFIM token         http://worldcoinnews.blogspot.com/search/label/madagascar

For me is incredible to find in same time many dfferents token when is a very little number of people who have worked in these island .Why to take differents coins from France , Madagascar and Reunion island when is simple to take just one country . Is a big mysterious
Best regards  Gerard