World of Coins

Design and designing => Coin design => Topic started by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 12:52:28 PM

Title: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 12:52:28 PM
Hi
I am in need of help to identify this item. It is a plaster disc of 10cm diameter, showing what appears to be the Golden Hind. I have had this since the early 70's and it apparently came from automobile fame's Morris's estate. I have tried the Royal Mint Museum but comms are slow to none existent.

I obviously would like to know something about it whether it holds any value and if there is any interest in it.

I hope you can help in my quest.

Roger 
 
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: <k> on July 30, 2012, 03:31:58 PM
It bears comparison to the UK ship ha'penny, but there are considerable differences. How long ago did you make your comments to the Royal Mint?
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 04:00:38 PM
Thanks for reply

Contacted them 9th July had one reply asking if there was any form of stamp on the back I answered that one (no) and that was that.

I see what you mean re the differences maybe early design?

Thanks
Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: villa66 on July 30, 2012, 04:11:35 PM
The remnants of the effaced lettering are tantalizing. With the added visibility that comes from having it in the hand, how much of the lettering are you able to reconstruct?

 :) v.
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 04:32:12 PM
Mmmm I can not seem to construct anything. Tried a paper and pencil rubbing but can not make out what has been erased..

I have reversed the image but you have probably done that already   ;)

Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: villa66 on July 30, 2012, 04:45:19 PM
A large cross on the mainsail--a feature of whose ships? And a long top legend that seems to end "...ION." Fun!

 :) v.
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 05:22:48 PM
I did not want to make my first post easy!  ;D

Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2012, 05:35:51 PM
I agree with <k> that, there are significant differences with the final design on the coins. The clearest may be the railing on the poop deck.

I am assuming that the "plastic" is flexible and rubbery, not hard and thick. If so, there is a chance that this was used at the mint in the production process of possibly a pattern.

A design in paper is transferred to plaster. The "third dimension", not in the sketch, is added at this stage. When the plaster is ready, it is covered by a layer of flexible resin, which is allowed to harden. The flexible cast is placed in a somewhat spherical bowl and used to produce a hard plastic model for the reducing lathe. The reason for this detour is that master and working dies need to be somewhat convex. During the strike, the surface of the metal of the flan becomes liquid under the force of the die. At that instant, it is helpful if the metal flows from the centre of the coin towards the edge. A slightly convex die makes this happen.

It takes some experimentation to determine just how convex the dies need to be, but the resin cast can be used several times. The lettering, pearl borders and other parts with a fixed height or depth go through a separate process, since they allow exact calculations.

While your object seems to fit the bill of the resin cast, there are points of doubt. Is it really flexible, as I assumed? Why is it not marked by the mint on the other side (I think that's why they asked you if there was anything on the other side), what are those letters doing "underneath" the design? How did it get out of the Mint? You may still have to wait for a verdict from the Mint.

Peter
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 05:46:53 PM
The plot thickens..... It is hard not flexible and is flat 

This pic shows reverse side

Roger


Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Prosit on July 30, 2012, 05:52:55 PM
It is also porous or pitted.  Professional casts in plaster are sometimes done under a vacuum to remove trapped air
and prevent just such porousness.

Interesting item.
Dale
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2012, 05:57:35 PM
A diameter of 10 cm is too little for the reducing machine, which is usually set at 4:1, so you'd expect a hard plastic model with a diameter of around 11.2 cm. I think this was not used in the production or testing of coin dies. Possibly, the artist made it in the design process?

Peter
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Prosit on July 30, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
The Canadian Mint use to (still do as far as I know) use a two step process and I believe the first plaster was 30cm.
That is from memeory which of course is suspect.
Dale



A diameter of 10 cm is too little for the reducing machine, which is usually set at 4:1, so you'd expect a hard plastic model with a diameter of around 11.2 cm. I think this was not used in the production or testing of coin dies. Possibly, the artist made it in the design process?

Peter
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 06:06:30 PM
Hi
Update from the museum.......... Still unsure as to what it is but their thought maybe a medal design????


Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: villa66 on July 30, 2012, 07:47:25 PM
...I have had this since the early 70's
and it apparently came from automobile fame's Morris's estate.

Any catalogs from a Morris sale? Was he also a collector of coins or medals? And a quick threshold question: why do you make the link with Morris? A receipt or any kind of paperwork? Someone who gave it to you who might still supply a story?

I return to the letters--is that an "S" at the beginning? And another, perhaps meaningless observation: the ship sails west.

 ;) v.
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 07:56:51 PM
The link now is no more as the person who gave it to my father will be no longer with us, however my dad told me that she was household staff on the estate....

The mint did say possibly Caribbean? Still lost..


Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Figleaf on July 30, 2012, 10:13:53 PM
The mint did say possibly Caribbean?

Mmmm. Maybe not.

Peter
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: akona20 on July 30, 2012, 11:07:34 PM
Lovely coin die "model" but I am guessing as are the rest.

Let's play with some history. Morris Garages (MG) was owned by Lord Nuffield who was, I am told, a coin collector. Given his money a coin die (well a working part of a die being designed) is probable as part of his collection. So perhaps the Nuffield Foundation may be the place to approach.
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: Hads123 on July 30, 2012, 11:17:44 PM
That sounds very plausible and interesting.
Thanks to all of you for your head scratching and thoughts.

Roger
Title: Re: Plaster disc showing Golden Hind?
Post by: malj1 on July 31, 2012, 12:57:05 AM
The ship design was originally intended for the half-crown of Edward VIII in 1937; it went through various stages in the transfer to the halfpenny.

I do notice though the prow of the ship is very different.