World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Topic started by: roastedtoe on July 12, 2012, 11:56:43 PM

Title: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 12, 2012, 11:56:43 PM
Hello all!

I have just joined the website because it was mentioned on another site as a good place to go for expertise on Indian coins.  I have a mystery coin that has been suggested to me is Indian of some age, but I can not identify it and I hope you can help me please!

As you will see one side has very good detail and the other is very damaged and worn.  But the good side should be enough for an ID I believe.

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g393/roastedtoe/photo102.jpg)

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g393/roastedtoe/photo103.jpg)

A picture taken the moment I found it!

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g393/roastedtoe/photo100.jpg)

For background, the coin was found last week by myself in the Thames foreshore in London while metal detecting.  I do find exotic coins in the mud of the river from time to time and I can normally always identify them, but this coin is an absolute puzzle.

It's dimensions are 18mmx13mmx4mm, the weight is 8.2grams and the material almost certainly a copper alloy.  It is a very dense coin with weight in the hand.

I hope you can help me.  If you can't I still appreciate the chance to post here and ask for help!

Many thanks! :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 16, 2012, 11:06:02 PM
To the top.

Any one recognise this at all? I certainly don't.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 17, 2012, 12:07:12 AM
I'll stick my neck out. It looks to me like a smaller denomination in the same series as this coin (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,15496.msg106125/topicseen.html#msg106125).

Take a chop...

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 17, 2012, 12:31:33 AM
Hi :)

I won't chop.  I appreciate the interest and effort!  Thank you!

I think it's sufficiently different though to maybe not be a relative of the mentioned coin.  It's certainly still very possible that it's an Indian coin or in the series you mention (I want to be proved wrong here! lol), it does look like an eastern script and the weight seems more likely to be a sub-continent coin (as a rule any European coins of that sort of weight are normally gold staters and the like). 

But I'm not sure now (which of course is why I came here to begin with! lol).  I'm starting to wonder if it's maybe a celtic artefact again.  I've posted it on a few websites that deal with Indian coins and no one has definitely put an ID on it (of course that holds for celtic too).  The celts sometimes got very carried away with abstraction and disjointed designs.

I've emailed the find's liason people at the Museum of London about it but they're all out on a summer dig (given the classic British summer we're having...stuck in the mud and swearing would be more like it than digging, lol.)  Might have to wait for them to get back into the office to get an identification.

Mystery...

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Oesho on July 17, 2012, 03:26:47 PM
I looked at it from all angles, but in vain, no suggestion for its attribution. Even the lettering is puzzling. It could be Arabic/Persian, but the legend is slightly defaced, but even then there appears no sensible inscription. Nevertheless it is not unlikely that the coin has come all the way from India and got lost in the Thames.
The slash, with dots on both sides, should be an identifying mark.
A symbol which appears on some copper coins of Jawad (Gwalior State) show such a stroke, but is flanked by a crescent on both sides (sometimes also with a star added on one side). See for example KM#109. The weight is also comparable with the issues of Jawad. However, I have not come across any similar coin in the series of Jawad, but its provenance may be of that area. Perhaps a Kachcha coin of Malwa? It are all suggestions, but we may be just fooled around particular as the other side of the coin is completely defaced and provides as yet no help in attribution.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: saro on July 17, 2012, 03:39:16 PM
Please, have a look on this coin from Zanzibar / Kilwa.
The coins of muslim rulers of Kilwa are degenerated copies of Ilkhan coins and may we can read here " Ishak..." for Ishak ibn Hasan (XIV°c. AD)
(The first scan needs then to be rotated 180°)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Oesho on July 17, 2012, 04:55:19 PM
Dear Saro, They weight of the coins of the Sultans of Kilwa and Zanzibar are of much lower weight (about 2 grams) as the coin concerned.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 17, 2012, 06:25:54 PM
Roastedtoe, are you sure of the weight, or do you get such big hands for digging around in Thames mud?) :)

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 17, 2012, 07:04:44 PM
Hi all :)

Thanks for the burst of interest in this coin! 

It's a teaser this one. lol.  I am sure of the weight too, I have checked it several times on my scale.  It is a very dense coin.  I considered whether or not it was red gold for a while because of the weight in the hand and the celts sometimes alloyed copper and gold. 

Also, every now and then I do find modern gold wedding bands in the Thames foreshore and the alloys can go very strange colours in the chemical soup of the river.  Those you can vigorously and easily polish back up but with an artefact such as this I'm not going to get out the Brasso! lol

Please keep suggesting different Indian coins it could be.  Each post brings me closer to knowing what this coin is, even if it isn't Indian.  I have considered also that it may not be a coin.  But I can't find any gaming pieces, strap ends, mounts and so on that are like it either, so I'm sticking with coin for the moment.

Thanks again for the interest!  I appreciate it! :)

p.s. Figleaf...my hands get very big some days in the mud...it's getting the mud off them that's the issue. lol.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: saro on July 17, 2012, 07:50:56 PM
18x13x4 mm and 8,2g gives a specific weight of 8,76 kg/dm3
Cu : 8,9 / Ag : 10,5 / Au : 19,5
So we are authorized to think that this coin is made of copper ..
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 17, 2012, 07:55:31 PM
Excellent Saro!

I had thought about that little equation to solve the "what is this material?" problem, but those particular classes at school were so many decades ago and so far buried in my mind that I couldn't personally perform the equation.  It's very nice to see the work of someone who can.  Thank you :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 17, 2012, 08:33:29 PM
I am pretty sure the writing is Arabic and the piece is not Celtic. I am not at all sure that it is a coin, but it could be.

What I find unusual is the circle around the text, which is smaller than the copper planchet. Usually, such edge decorations are larger than the planchet. Another thing that is unusual is that numismatic giants such as Oesho and saro have no good answer, while Ansari says he doesn't recognize the letters. The third thing that I find unusual is the other side, so much more worn, in particular the "ditch" in the copper. The fourth thing that is unusual is finding it on the banks of the Thames.

Thinking aloud, what if this is not a coin? Could there have been an axle in the opening at the back? Could the back have worn because it moved against something hard? Copper is not a good metal for decoration, so what if it is part of a tool? Why the Arabic in the circle?

Some ideas. This may be part of a tool for "signing", or ownership, which would explain the complete circle (security). It may have been worn on a thin ring and it was torn off. Since the text is in Arabic and it was found on the Thames it may have a connection with the slave trade, cotton, textile or coffee.

Another avenue. Textile. In 15th to 17th century (maybe also earlier and later) Western European countries, standardised rolls were marked with a lead seal, to show that taxes had been paid or the length was correct or both. Was this an African variant in copper? Or was it attached to a bale as proof of ownership at unloading, just like Europeans did. In both cases, the gash in the copper may have been where the textile was.

The above is speculation and I doubt we'll get much further with this if we can't read the text. One thing you could do is take it to the British Museum. Having the piece in hand may make a difference.

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: capnbirdseye on July 17, 2012, 09:18:33 PM
When you think of all the Merchant ships coming to London from all over the world for the last few hundred years it's not surprising to find oriental coins & artifacts,more so in the old docklands areas. Is that bits of Nagari lettering on the worn side at the top?
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 17, 2012, 09:32:15 PM
It may indeed prove to not be a coin.  I have looked at lots of different options in terms of gaming pieces and mounts and so on.  You're right also that it maybe the top part of a ring or something decorative to be worn, but it would be a very heavy ring.  I have wondered if it's a seal.  As if, maybe the image isn't the raised portions but the sunken ones, but couldn't make much sense of that.  I don't think it's a commercial seal, at least not a British one.  I have a fair collection of lead cloth bale seals found in the Thames foreshore from Tudor onwards and they are vary recognisable.

It's certainly possible it is exotic to the UK and in the Thames.  Trading routes all over the world go back thousands of years and as mentioned the merchant and naval activity of previous centuries.  I've a Venetian coin from the 1600's and so too Dutch Colonial New York other others from hundreds of years past that found their way into the Thames. 

The script or illustration is a nagger.  I looks familiar to me.  But as it seems to have everyone stumped (not only here, lol!).  I may have to wait till the finds liason folk get out of the muddy fields and back into the Museum of London to have the mystery solved...

I do appreciate the continued input.  It is great to get support when plagued by a mystery! ha! :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 17, 2012, 11:54:08 PM
It may indeed prove to not be a coin.  I have looked at lots of different options in terms of gaming pieces and mounts and so on.  You're right also that it maybe the top part of a ring or something decorative to be worn, but it would be a very heavy ring.

I didn't mean a ring for a finger, but rather a ring to attach to a belt or a chain or just to hold in your hand, like an oversized key ring. Being copper, I don't believe it is decorative.

I have wondered if it's a seal.  As if, maybe the image isn't the raised portions but the sunken ones, but couldn't make much sense of that.  I don't think it's a commercial seal, at least not a British one.  I have a fair collection of lead cloth bale seals found in the Thames foreshore from Tudor onwards and they are vary recognisable.

Yes, the seals are lead and it wouldn't be a European seal, but why couldn't it be something made in Africa, the Middle East or India that imitates those European seals?

Dutch Colonial New York

If that's a coin, it has been misidentified. Post it on this site and we'll tell you all about it.

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Ancientnoob on July 18, 2012, 06:05:45 AM
I am not certain but I think the coin could be of a Celtic origin. The image on the coin looks like an abstract picture rather then text. I will have to get back to you guys on this one.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 18, 2012, 06:25:59 AM
The Dutch coin is a Duit...I'm sure on that one or numerous coin websites are wrong! lol

But as to this being celtic again...I'm wondering now if maybe it's a copper core of a gold plated stater and the gilding has completely vanished.  Could be an ancient forgery or copy.  Its design is somewhat reminiscent of South Ferriby staters and as ancientnoob said, the celts sometimes got very carried away with abstraction.  It could also (if a coin) be of a rarer or unrecorded type I suppose (to get carried away myself for a moment, lol).  New types do emerge now and then due to metal detecting finds.

Hmm....
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 18, 2012, 07:02:23 AM
Back to the subject coin it is time to bite the bullet and clean the other side. I suggest you PM bruce of the cleaning and conservation section for advice.

There is a chance that the writing is early Kufic but with only one side who knows.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: saro on July 18, 2012, 09:17:44 AM
It really looks like a coin.
I tried and...I was wrong with Kilwa whose coins don't exceed 2g...
The weight, size and thickness lead better to india and this unidentified item listed by S.Goron (under n° MU22) may be similar. ?
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 18, 2012, 11:13:35 AM
Old man...I'm wary of cleaning the other side when one is so well preserved.  Although I agree if there was some detail left amongst the damage it maybe a great assistance in identifying this object.  I tend to be of the very cautious school when it comes to cleaning, although inherent in how I find my coins I have to do some cleaning to identify most objects.  I might give it a bit of work with a soft cloth and see if something comes up, but until the museum has had a go, I'd not want to do anything more.

Saro, I appreciate your efforts, be they successful or not.  I find a lot of wrong answers get to the right one in the end with things like this. lol.  I appreciate everyone's suggestions be they the answer or not.  Your latest suggestion is a lot closer to the coin in design.

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 18, 2012, 11:28:38 AM
I got out the soft cloth, the damaged side just got shiny, but no clearer.  Sadly.

http://www.celticcoins.ca/record.php?coin_id=000699

It's coins of that type, and there are numerous variations on the design, that keep me heading back towards Celtic now.  While by no means a match, the feel of the design is similar enough to make me wonder....
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 18, 2012, 11:30:25 AM
The person I have recommended for advice is one of the world's experts in coin cleaning. He is not some amateur. However it is, of course, your call.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 18, 2012, 12:57:28 PM
He may not be an amateur, but I am, thus the caution. Lol
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 18, 2012, 01:00:11 PM
You have something that is identified maybe? Then you just might, under careful instructions, uncover the missing part of the mystery.

The concept of cleaning unattributed pieces is interesting.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Ancientnoob on July 19, 2012, 01:42:17 AM
Iceni British Celts 100BCI feel like I am getting warmer.....Look here


http://wildwinds.com/coins/celtic/britain/iceni/i.html

Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 19, 2012, 02:20:03 AM
But can you produce a celt with that circle? I am still trying to make saro's suggestion fit.

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Ancientnoob on July 19, 2012, 03:27:28 AM
This has a circle and is from that area geographically. http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/SE/SE0062.html
Can we all agree the "text" if interpreted as so is illegible?

Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: saro on July 19, 2012, 08:19:47 AM
I am not at all conviced by a celtic origin... I agree : for the moment the text is illegible but for me, is very close to the one of the first scan of S.Goron's MU22 (upper left).
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 19, 2012, 08:20:37 AM
I keep trying to make various Indian coins fit it too but can't and swing back to the celts each time.  Circles around the central design aren't that common with the celts I know, but they're not unheard of.  Although the link above and the picture below (my own Canti potin) do have them.

(http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/g393/roastedtoe/Thames/P1020765.jpg)

There's also this from Gaul,

http://www.anythinganywhere.com/commerce/coins/coinpics/ancg-remi-sg136-1.jpg

I've seen others in my hours of trawling images of celtic coins.  So the circle isn't unknown it's just not common.

I think an important question is whether or not the design is a script or not?  That would give a broad geographical decision for where it originated from.  If it's a script, it's eastern (I presume), if it's not, then the design is an abstracted illustration and more likely European....

Hmm...

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 19, 2012, 09:03:08 AM
I believe we need to analyse what saro is suggesting rather carefully given that we only have one side of a probable coin.

I. Jaunpur produced a series of coins approximating this size (weight uncertain).
2. the coins were round with one face having an inner circle with text both inside and outside of the circle.
3. If a date is present it will be on the illegible side if it is one of these coins.
4. The text within the circle could be described as crude and would require knowledge of the calligraphy to transliterate. However if we took a little licence perhaps we can almost see Mahmud or Mohammed
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: capnbirdseye on July 19, 2012, 11:07:47 AM
There is certainly a hint of Islamic writing on this coin
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 19, 2012, 12:01:07 PM
This is rather the thorny problem with this artefact.  It points both east and west at once.  I would be inclined to the eastern origin as well, why I posted it up here to begin with (for the benefit of the amassed knowledge of such coins on this site), but given that no one, as yet, is able to give a definite identification (and don't read that the wrong way, I greatly appreciate all the help that has and is being given! :)), I keep the celtic possibility alive also, given their love of abstraction and the fact that unrecorded types are still being found.

And while there is only one side, it is a very well preserved side.  It would have to be a very obscure type indeed for such a well preserved side to be insufficient for an identification. 

As much as the other side not being heavily degraded by the time in the river would help immensely.  The other fact (when considering this side too) to bear in mind is that the degraded side may have been plain to begin with but centuries in the river, pressed into gravel and stones and sand by the pressure of all that water and tidal flow, may have done the job of providing what looks like the ghost of a design when there isn't actually one.

The search goes on.  As said already, and again, thanks for all the effort going into this!
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 19, 2012, 12:13:58 PM
Well I believe Saro is correct and secondly it is currently nothing in reality. A quick boil in a Gringotts mixture and then perhaps a treatment with a shoft bristle brass brush on the end of a battery powered Dremel would solve the mystery I think.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 19, 2012, 12:51:49 PM
Yes, a blank copper disc would be no mystery at all! Lol

As much as I admire your robust attitude to solving the mystery...until identification is achieved it has to be considered a possible antiquity of a rare kind (perhaps) and me going hell for leather with chemicals and tools maybe judged as misdirected enthusiasm IF it eventually turns out as an ancient artefact...

There is just not enough to be gained from the degraded side to subject the object to such treatment by an unpractised hand such as mine.  I'm sure identification can be achieved with the good side, it's just an issue of patience. ;)

p.s. re-reading your suggested treatment I believe I may have missed some irony there. I hope it was intended! Lol
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 19, 2012, 01:28:50 PM
Well hell for leather is hardly what is being suggested. A correct soft brisltle brass brush with a battery Dremel will not hurt anything given the condition.

Me, I'd use electrolysis but then again I have a little experience with that and it takes a gentle hand with something like that in any case.

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14584.msg100268.html#msg100268

I know it should have a before picture but that Byzantine overstrike was just a mass of green/blue and other things but it turned out okay. I have a few others around here that are better because they had a better core to work with.

Perhaps even ask bruce to see if he would arrange a favour and have it professionaly cleaned.

Then a mystery, probably, no more. I have a coin that is unique, so unique it is for all purposes worthless. No one knows what it is.

Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 19, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
This is essentially now an ideological debate about the correct treatment of artefacts and coins, given how much detail is preserved on the good side and clearly visible.  I'm of the school of thought that until I know what it is, if it has enough detail to be identifiable (and this object most certainly does, once the right pair of eyes see it) than I'm not going to risk degrading it.  Clearly if it was just a lump of bronze disease and carnage it would be a different matter.

I'd rather an unsolved mystery, secure in the knowledge (through experience), that the answer will come, then risk damaging the object by indulging my personal need to know, as much as it is bugging the hell out of me. lol.

So maybe we can leave off the cleaning debate please, if you don't mind, as it's becoming a tangent and a distraction.  My decision not to follow your suggestion is not a personal slight, I just don't agree with you, but I'm happy for you to believe differently.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 19, 2012, 01:53:15 PM
Well it's your call but I know what a 1000 digs would do and just as many museums.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 19, 2012, 01:56:24 PM
Figleaf, our leader has this quote at the foot of every post.

"An unidentified coin is a piece of metal. An identified coin is a piece of history.'

A great statement.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 22, 2012, 12:28:52 AM
If you are prepared to pay the postage I am prepared to pay the costs of having this coin/object professionaly cleaned and restored. The object will have to be sent to America.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 22, 2012, 12:38:22 AM
Not completely sure, but I think you need a license for mudlarking on the Thames and that in turn means the item must be submitted to the institution indicated by the powers that be, in this case the museum of London. If the item is eventually returned to roastedtoe, he will be at liberty to send it abroad, if he wishes.

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 22, 2012, 12:47:05 AM
Well I rather think it will end the eternal discussion on what it is.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Ancientnoob on July 22, 2012, 03:05:28 AM
For what its worth,I showed a collegue of mine a picture of the "obverse" image/ inscription ,told him where it was found. I waited a split second and heard him utter that word...Persian. He said it looked like words over words with caligraphy to crazy to read. He said there is no doubt that its persian... 100%. At this point... I fear for my celtic position, although there are many uncalogued and unique types of just about every combination of metals.
Nate
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 22, 2012, 09:49:39 AM
Good of you to take the trouble. Persian is certainly a possibility, but it's hard to be certain if one side is unreadable and the other side invisible. I too believe that expert cleaning is one of the few ways, if not the only way forward (though I doubt it will yield much more information), but the bureaucratic demands must be observed. This puzzle is too good to lose it to hanky-panky. It's indeed not just what it is, but also where it was found. Fascinating.

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 22, 2012, 11:11:50 AM
Good morning (or good afternoon or good evening. lol)!

In the hand and to the eye there just doesn't seem to be much, if any, detail preserved on the degraded side.  Bear in mind also, all my ancient finds have been re-deposited by the river, after eroding out of their hiding spot for centuries, some come up in fantastic condition all round, others have one side heavily degraded by whatever material that surface has been pressed into for centuries.  Some also are deliberately damaged prior to offering (votive) and so on.  At this stage, I just don't believe there is enough to be gained to do anything to the degraded side, other than a bit of work with the soft cloth, as has been done.

I do search on the foreshore with a license and I think the powers that be would take a dim view of my shipping things off internationally out of little more than impatience, until I've followed the correct protocol.  Which is only fair, given how serious the international trade is in smuggled and stolen antiquities etc. 

So I'll wait for the Museum of London.  I've emailed them for an appointment.  I've not yet had a find with one bad and one good side that was mysterious that couldn't be identified by the good side in time.

It certainly does look like an eastern script and may well turn out to be so.  The problem is the components of the design can be found in so many different combinations all over the world in use by so many different cultures over time.  Tricky is what it is! lol.  I would not be surprised if it turns out to be a previously unrecorded type of celtic just as I would not be surprised if it turns out to be Persian or so on.

All that is required is patience...and to keep asking the question.

I certainly appreciate your continued efforts here!  Very much so! Thank you :)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 22, 2012, 11:28:31 AM
With due doffing my cap to the great instituition that the Museum is I really thing we have more fire power here (or at our disposal) to give the best answer possible. I will run with Saro for a starter.

I am struggling to understand how a single find constitutes a hoard under the Treasure Act of the UK however perhaps, given that it is apparently not silver or gold (two constituting a hoard from memory), it was part of a larger find and we have not been informed.

As for smuggled antiquities etc, well how many antiquities do you need to keep a fair share of researchers engaged in employment and how many more do you need rotting in the bowels of museums and universities (personal view).

At the present time it is merely an object of conjecture and perhaps the conjecture should cease and await official findings. My offer is for the object to be cleaned by an expert of impecable background and knowledge and returned to the owner. I will debate anyone in any instituition on the matter.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 22, 2012, 12:27:22 PM
It's a matter of principle and respect.  The Thames is one big major archaeological site and to be allowed to go at your own leisure to fossick about and remove antiquities is a nice privilege.  Some people do it purely for personal profit and deny the public the knowledge of their finds.  Others get a license and do it legally and agree to show the Museum anything of interest they find as a thank you and a nod to the happy laxity of the law governing the site.  This is a good compromise because you couldn't possibly hope to police the entire foreshore.  Also, it allows you access to the resources and knowledge of the museum for free (which is only fair of course, given it's a public institution) and you get your artefacts returned with a nice write up from the museum on each one they record.

This is a good way of course for the museum to know what's coming out of the river.  It works and I appreciate it and the first people who are going to see any mysterious artefact I find are at the museum.

As to who has the better experts? Good luck to you.  Debate that one on your own.

As to the treasure act.  A single copper coin doesn't come under that.  It's gold and silver, 10% or more by volume and over 300 years of age, that the treasure act covers, as a rule.  Unless you're talking about great big pots of copper coins of course.  This coin/artefact doesn't come under the treasure act, but that's not what we're debating.

Old Man I would ask you please for a final time to leave it be on the cleaning issue.  It's been discussed, I genuinely appreciate your proposals but at this stage I just don't agree with you.  I would like to get on with the discussion without having to debate this endlessly.

Patience and the right pair of eyes will see the artefact and identification achieved.  Or, the accumulated minds of this website will ask enough questions to crack the riddle.  This one will just take a little time, clearly, but as it's potentially been laying in the Thames for 2000 years till recently, a bit more time won't hurt. ;)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: akona20 on July 22, 2012, 02:11:43 PM
I'll leave it alone of course at your request. You are welcomed here and given the best of advice you choose not to take it.

However in perspective you are the second metal detectorist from the UK to come to this site in the space of a few eeks and both times for correct identification coins needed either better photography or to be correctly cleaned for proper attribution.

Now if you choose not to do that then okay but pleae don't suggest the group is incapable of correct attribution of a piece presented correctly. You know how the great digs and museums attribute coins that are dirty? Well I do I have part of enough research groups in enough places. They clean the bloody things. And frequently they do the job poorly. Most of us here understand sites of interest and what they hold, or don't hold for that matter.

Check out the sanctioned program Time Team. One minute you see a dirty mess that is a coin and hey presto the attributal article turns up. It's cleaned of course.
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 22, 2012, 02:21:26 PM
Some people make their own treasures along the Thames banks. These would be good metal detecting site once they have left. :)

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 22, 2012, 02:56:07 PM
When up in central London I sometimes start on that spot to get my ear in for the day...plucking spare change out of a mass of bottle caps and ring pulls and pieces of aluminium cans warms you up for attempting to find much more exciting things in the morass of rusting iron that is a lot of the foreshore once you scratch the surface. Lol ;)
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: Figleaf on July 22, 2012, 03:10:46 PM
Not bad ar all, if you can actually separate ring pulls and bottle caps from coins by sound. What kind of detector are you using?

I never worked out how to get down there, or up again, for that matter. ;) Not that I had the intention...

Peter
Title: Re: Ancient Indian Coin?
Post by: roastedtoe on July 22, 2012, 03:40:25 PM
The Thames takes a lot of patience alloyed to persistence bordering on mania, lol, but your first roman or Celtic find is both reward and fuel forever ;)  As to discriminating the sounds? It's just experience, you learn it subconsciously by immersing yourself in the digital chatter and digging and digging anything that isn't iron.  My machine is a Minelab xterra305. Pretty basic machine but it has good discrimination between iron and other metals and that's the most important thing on the river.