World of Coins

Collecting coins => Cleaning, conservation and storage => Topic started by: bruce61813 on June 07, 2012, 06:06:54 PM

Title: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on June 07, 2012, 06:06:54 PM
First round - All three coins are from pocket change, so they have plenty of wear on them.

Coins #1 and #3 were first scrubbed using a battery powered Dremel rotary tool. Why battery powered? It has lower torque and top end RPM of 10,000. You can stall it with your fingers. A paste of liquid soap and bi-carbonate of soda was used. then the coins were rinsed and buffed with a very soft brass cup brush used on the dremel. This produced a high shine, but no visable scratching.

Coin #2 was buffed with the brass brush.

The soap paste can be used with a denture brush to remove surface grim and oxides from coins.


Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on June 10, 2012, 05:52:37 PM
Here is a start: This should work for all metals, it will remove all surface toning, and make the coins shine.

Modern coins that just need a bit of shine [if that is to your inclination].
1. Make a simple paste of liquid soap and bi-carbonate of soda. It should be about the consistency of toothpaste.
2. Here i had to use my Dremel with a very soft brass cup brush, the severe corrosion could be removed by chemical brass cleaner
3. Rubbed with more paste, washed and waxed. You can still see the scars from the corrosion, but to the eye it is barely notable.

If no corrosion , then step 1 and 3 are only needed.

Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Alan Glasser on June 26, 2012, 01:49:22 AM
I guess it doesn't matter much on modern coins minted in the millions, but I believe a paste of bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) is abrasive and will leave hairline scratches. I think it should be pointed out to new people reading this that this method should never be used on truly collectable, scarce or historic coins, nor those with collector value.   
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on July 07, 2012, 07:06:57 AM
It would take at least 100x magnification to see the any scratches, as the bi-carbonate in a liquid soap would not show visible scratches.

You would never need to clean an new coin right from the mint. If it has been in circulation, then it is already scratched. ancients have enough problems, baking soda won't hurt them.

Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: parthaadhicary on September 21, 2012, 05:01:56 PM
I am new to coin collecting. I am told that collectors do not clean coins since it reduces its collectable value. Is that true?

Partha
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Figleaf on September 21, 2012, 05:14:04 PM
No. You should not clean coins unnecessarily. You should clean coins you want to clean for your own reasons, but you should always make sure you know what you are doing. That's what this board is for. Look around on this board for more info, especially when it comes from Bruce, who is our in-house coin-cleaning guru.

The no-cleaning myth is a US invention. My take is that it serves, alongside the "grading is a science" myth, to increase the profits of the third party graders.

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: paisepagal on September 21, 2012, 05:27:50 PM
First off, I'm pretty amazed by the results Bruce posted. I don't want to get into American vs european (because im neither) notions of cleaning coins.
I just go by the simple logic if I pay a significant amount for a specific coin, I would wait for a genuine unc un-cleaned coin even if a cleaned one was ready for the taking. After all, I should get the best value for my money. And should the need ever arise that I need to sell the coins, it's a safer  bet with the genuine untouched coins. After all, if I have that particular standard, why shouldn't the next guy.
If you do find someone ready to pay big moolah for cleaned stuff, you've found yourself a bhakra  ;D
That said, if you just want to clean the coins for show-and-tell , and you are least concerned what you can sell them for, go right ahead and start buffing  ;D
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on September 22, 2012, 07:09:23 PM
For new coins in "un-circulated " condition, there should be no cleaning needed. If the possibility of finger prints on silver exists, then try something like Ren Wax, it should take the finger oils off, and protect the coin surface. If the finger prints are visible, then then everything changes. But if that is a concern, the question is why were the coins being handled.  >:D

My examples were what could be done with common change, you never know what will show up. But the simple answer, do as little as possible. If they are intended for re-sale, leave them alone, except in the case of corrosion that may continue damaging the coin unless you do something.

Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: mlvs on January 07, 2013, 07:43:37 AM
Hi

For cleaning coins, One of the dealer asked me to soak the coin for a minute in Harpic(Toilet cleaner in India :)) and wash thoroughly with Sabeena (Dish washer).
Will it cause any damage to my coin?
Can I use used/old tooth brush for cleaning coins?
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 07, 2013, 10:18:51 AM
Yes Harpic will cause damage but an old toothbrush may at times be okay.

What coins are you looking at cleaning?
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: mlvs on January 07, 2013, 10:55:19 AM
Nickel Brass ( 1 Naya paisa India 1963 ) and few copper coins
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 07, 2013, 11:05:35 AM
Perhaps best left uncleaned
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: mlvs on January 08, 2013, 06:41:21 AM
Thanks Akona. But i bought the coin with some stains on that. Was afraid it might be some chemicals and would destory the coin.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Figleaf on January 08, 2013, 03:24:44 PM
Stains on nickel-brass are likely caused by chemicals, as it is a fairly stable alloy, but the chemicals (likely acids) are likely to have been used up on the metal a long time ago. Indeed, you may be able to remove the spots with the recipes given upthread by Bruce, but keep in mind that patina will be lost and it will take many, many years before it is restored. Your choice.

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on January 08, 2013, 03:50:14 PM
As Fig pointed out, the less you do to a coin the better. Stains on the coin metal are hard to deal with, but, you can try a paste of sodium bi-carbonate [baking soda] and dish washing liquid. This is non-acid and, and more of a polish. Just apply it and rub. You want a thick paste, just barely liquid.


Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 11, 2013, 09:03:12 PM
...The no-cleaning myth is a US invention. My take is that it serves, alongside the "grading is a science" myth, to increase the profits of the third party graders.

I really don’t think so. (And "myth" is such a provocative word ;) .) Third-party grading (as we know it, anyway) had its American debut during the 1970s, but the American coin hobby was cautioning novices about the pitfalls of cleaning coins much, much earlier than that. For instance—and more or less at random—

The 9th edition (1952) of the seminal Handbook of United States Coins, aka the ”Bluebook:” “Most numismatists will tell you to ‘never clean a coin’ and it is good advice; however, every collector tries to clean a coin sooner or later, so we are passing on a few tips here….If you must satisfy the urge to try to clean coins, experiment first with some ordinary coins….”

And then from the  29th edition (1926) of B. Max Mehl’s ubiquitous The Star Rare Coin Encyclopedia and Premium Catalog: “Please read…NEVER CLEAN A RARE COIN.…A somewhat corroded coin is oftentimes more valuable than a cleaned one. The cleaning of a rare coin considerably decreases its value.”

A lot of folks have had quite a bit to say about Mehl over the years, but I’ve never yet heard anyone say he didn’t know what his customers wanted.  And it’s not like they didn’t have a wealth of experience to support their preferences; Americans had been collecting coins with some enthusiasm since the phase-out of the old large cent in the late 1850s.

The funny thing is, it was years before I understood that when it came to machine-struck coinage, the American coin hobby was as experienced—and as discerning—as any in the world. The realization really did come as a surprise, but then I did, finally, begin to understand the implications of the puzzling English-language passage I’d run across years before in a 1985 Swedish coin catalog. The words were taken from a 1940 Swedish coin publication that quoted an American coin catalog: ”Do not clean or scour any coin you wish to sell, as we always pay more for a specimen offered as found, however green or black it may be; cleaning has ruined many desirable pieces.”.

 :) v.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 11, 2013, 10:38:59 PM
Note: Coins that cannot be attributed are nothing. So coins in an unattributable state need to be cleaned so they can at least be attributed if possible. It is the level of cleaning that becomes debatable,

I have found a silvered Roman coin from my cleaning days. It is now attributal from the preliminary work and it has much of the silver remaing . It cost me $2 as something totally unrecognisable. If I destroy it with the next stage of cleaning should I decide to do it what is really lost? I think the anti cleaning fraternity has rather lost itself in these discussions. about unattributed coins that need cleaning.

For the modern coins if cleaning was such a bad thing why do grading agencies offer cleaning as part of their services?
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 12, 2013, 03:32:23 AM
...For the modern coins if cleaning was such a bad thing why do grading agencies offer cleaning as part of their services?
Because sometimes leaving a coin uncleaned is a worse thing.

 :) v.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 12, 2013, 04:30:57 AM
...coins in an unattributable state need to be cleaned so they can at least be attributed if possible. It is the level of cleaning that becomes debatable,

I have found a silvered Roman coin from my cleaning days. It is now attributal from the preliminary work and it has much of the silver remaing . It cost me $2 as something totally unrecognisable. If I destroy it with the next stage of cleaning should I decide to do it what is really lost? I think the anti cleaning fraternity has rather lost itself in these discussions. about unattributed coins that need cleaning.

The thread here is the conservation and cleaning of modern coins. Which means not attribution, but eye-appeal, is the main concern.

Much of WoC's editorial slant comes out of the European coin tradition--of course--but much European coin-thought derives from a long familiarity with collecting ancients. Cleaning for attribution and preservation is therefore well understood in the various European coin hobbies, but in my own experience, the impact of cleaning on the eye-appeal of modern machine-struck coinage is today still...less well-appreciated among the run of Europeans than it will be in the future. (Euro collecting--and the "legacy" collecting it spurred--seems to be doing for a wide band of the European public what the silver dollar rush did for Americans a half century ago, what the commemorative half dollar craze did for Americans 80 years ago, and what the end of the large cent did for Americans 150 years ago.)

Look, the American coin hobby is full of (badly) cleaned coins. They're easy to find in dealers's cases and in junkboxes across the country. Sometimes it seems like that's all there is to buy, just a bunch of ugly cleaned and damaged coins. But of course it would--the pretty coins already have homes.

I'd like to see more accent on the eye-appeal of coins among WoC's old-timers, at least where modern machine-struck coinage is concerned; I think it'd be a real favor to the folks who come after.   

;) v.
 
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 12, 2013, 10:53:45 PM
Perhaps the title of the thread should be Machine Made and Machine Struck rather than just Modern.

For me the bottom line is that the industry, especially in America, accepts these coins in a cleaned state frequently at very high slabbed "quality" ratings.

Its a purely dollars and cents game. In fact knowledge, that is to say how much should a silver coin, for example, tarnish with that percentage of silver content over time and what should the tarnish actually look like, has been over ridden by  ashiney mass of metal called a high graded coin.

A counter argument may go that exposing a coin to SO2, or cigar smoke or something else will cause a tarnish (patina) and is that what you want?

So that is why we have coin dripping as an art form to produce nice shiney coins is all the rage especially in America and it is now acceptable. Fake or false patina discovery is somewhat an acquired ability but picking the fakes in the shiney coin parade can be a lot more difficult. (Just quetly some of the recent Mughal Rupees I have found have suffered dripping or perhaps something else.)

Actually the shiney coins have an artificial patina, it is the removal of the real patina to produce something else.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 13, 2013, 01:06:42 AM
...So that is why we have coin dripping as an art form to produce nice shiney coins is all the rage especially in America and it is now acceptable.

Eye-appeal is eye-appeal, and there's no doubt it can be had through skillful dipping of the right coin--but try it with the wrong coin, or even the right coin often enough, and you've got problems. An overdipped UNC is a terrible thing to see.

 :) v.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 13, 2013, 02:01:03 AM
The term I am talking about here is dripping not dipping.

And I have seen some very highly rated coins that have been through this process.

Now of course they talk about removing "grime" from coins by this process. Nice to know real patina is called grime when it suits the purpose of faking a patina.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 13, 2013, 02:30:49 AM
The term I am talking about here is dripping not dipping.

And I have seen some very highly rated coins that have been through this process.

Now of course they talk about removing "grime" from coins by this process. Nice to know real patina is called grime when it suits the purpose of faking a patina.

"Dripping" is a unfortunate typo that now can be found on the Net if one looks for it--but the process is "dipping."
 ;) v.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 13, 2013, 02:35:43 AM
Hi,

Back in the good old days it was called dripping (for various reasons) among those who did it now it appears to be called dipping for various other reasons and people who do it are now called conservationists rather than appliers of fake patina.

Its a little like that great race of people from the far north of India and Afghanistan used to be called Pathans there are now called Pashtoons.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: villa66 on January 13, 2013, 04:02:55 AM
...Back in the good old days it was called dripping (for various reasons) among those who did it now it appears to be called dipping for various other reasons and people who do it are now called conservationists rather than appliers of fake patina.

On the subject of dipping, here again from 36 years ago are some the "keepers" of the American coin hobby in their 1977 1st edition of The Official American Numismatic Association Grading Standards for United States Coins: “The simple ‘dipping’ (without abrasion) of an already Uncirculated or Proof coin to brighten the surface does not have to be mentioned unless such dipping alters the appearance from when the coin was first struck (for example, in the instance of a copper or bronze coin in which dipping always produces an unnatural color completely unlike the coin when it was first struck.)”

Eye-appeal!

 :) v.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: akona20 on January 13, 2013, 04:19:28 AM
I will post a story later about an incident in the east end of London in late 1971 about dripping and dipping.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Buffalosoldat on March 29, 2013, 06:06:47 AM
Maybe a clarification needs to be made on cleaning with harsh abrasives (whether a liquid like acid or a toothbrush or whatever) versus cleaning with a soak in, say, hot water. Or are these generally viewed as equally bad?

I note that an AU 1921-P Walking Liberty slabbed by NGC with a label that includes "Improperly Cleaned" is listed on our local auction website for NZ$950.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Figleaf on March 29, 2013, 10:38:01 AM
If you read the above, you will note that opinions differ; there is no "right" answer. FWIW, in my opinion, anything that either does not alter the piece itself or removes crud that prevents a (complete) identification is OK. Choose your own line in the sand (and don't complain about other people's line).

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: bruce61813 on March 29, 2013, 09:38:04 PM
From lots of cleaning experience, just soaking in water hot water does very little, for moderns or ancients. Finger oils or or other coatings won't dissolve. A soft tooth brush without a soap does little. If you want a "no" scratch clean, use REN Wax , just a little bit  rubbed on the coin, then a buff with a pure cotton cloth. This will clean the surface of the coin, removing surface oils and minor oxides.

Bruce
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Lynnetteasis on November 18, 2013, 10:18:34 AM
I soak my coins in a small bowl of warm water and a few drops of dish soap. I leave them soaking for an hour or so then rinse them well under warm water. Pat them dry. I lay them out and look at them. Currency can carry a lot of disease and germs, for health reasons I wash them and often wear nytril gloves while processing them.
If I need to remove dirt and crud from a coins so I can see the details, then I use a soft eraser (bee's wax works well). If I do anything else to the coin I will use a silver polishing cloth to lightly settle the appearance. I really like the wax idea mentioned in this post. I think I will try that with a liquid, spray on wax since it is so light and thin, it won't cake in the crevasses. Once cleaned I will try to use gloves to handle them or wipe them clean before re-storing them.
Once they are cleaned up they need to go into a coin flip and get filed, go into a collection book, vinyl coin sheets or coin rolls, never loose in a drawer or a bowl. I use the ledger to log in my coins. I collect mainly US coins and can suggest theses: Coin World sells a paper bound book "Ledger of US Coins"  There are free downloads online also like http://coins.about.com has a free pdf "The Checklist of American Coins" Now that I have had more time to think into the future I realize the pdf format ledgers are not only cost effective but much easier than needing to another ledger book as it gets outdated. They can be linked or saved into google cloud e print and viewed or printed out anywhere. Handy for sales, sharing, trading and even online grading. PCGS has an online link to their software program that allows you to share your questions with many more and let them know you are alive and well. There are quickly becoming more internet storage options with ease of showing your coins from your home.
Then I view them with a field microscope or magnifying lens. And try to determine their rarity and potential for value. As a backup I use a cross check method. I have the paper ledger (assessor log) and a paper flyer (collection log) with the coins as I add them into the collections. I add notes on the outside of any and attach to envelopes, rolls or coin flips with a write on tag (I like them better than the cardboard/Mylar coin holders) or simply but placing the list directly with the coins if in lots for storage.
On these lists I note about any research I have done, potential rare. low mintage, price alerts, weblinks or potential error coins. These notes stay separate from the ledger so if I show it to someone I am not claiming to be a grader or predetermine their evaluation of the ledger and over all collection.
I use the good old fashion museum curation standards. I have several large collection categories. One is the old card catalog system for lower grade or ones I haven't decided to place for good. It is simple, easy to update and only requires a small amount of space. I keep the Whitman books going, but not with my best pieces. Those go into a hardbound book with plastic coins pouches to assemble a registry set. I use loose leaf plastic pouch sheets to "lay out" for a new book so I can easily update with new additions. Any extra or excessive lots of the same varieties should be rolled or sheathed for protection. I keep my coins at room temperature and dry air. All coins are locked into my stamp cabinet or safe.
This is what happens whens if you inherit a hoarders lifelong coin collection.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Lynnetteasis on November 19, 2013, 12:31:04 AM
The above, latest post refers to loose coins already circulated. Of course if graded, encapsulated or already in a coin holder then that is where they stay.
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Figleaf on November 19, 2013, 12:40:46 AM
Pefectly clear, Lynnetteasis. Also, please refer to my reply #27 above. Many don't believe in third party grading and slabbing; your mileage may vary.

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Prosit on November 19, 2013, 01:17:58 AM
I think there is a place for third party graders. I don't think we should rely on them to replace learning about our hobby and being able to grade coins in general. 

But...I might like to have an early US Large Cent say KM 22 (1801-1807) for example. I might like it in a VF grade.

Depending on year that coin might cost between $225 USD and 5,000 USD. But a Fine grade might cost hundreds or thousands less. I am not likely to collect all years due to expense and learn the ins and outs of the series and grading them but I might like one for a type set so a TPG begins to make a lot of sense.

No 100% guarantees but I am certainly less likely to throw hundreds of dollars into some dealer's pocket unnecessarily for a lesser graded coin than I want by using a reputable third party grader in this instance and less likely to buy a counterfeit example.

It is kinda like insurance. It doesn't always do what it should but a lot of times it does.

Dale






Pefectly clear, Lynnetteasis. Also, please refer to my reply #27 above. Many don't believe in third party grading and slabbing; your mileage may vary.

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Figleaf on November 19, 2013, 01:54:54 AM
Sure, if that's way you like to do it, why not? It probably makes sense in your situation. It doesn't in mine.

If I were prepared to spend that kind of money on a single coin, I would budget an amount and start looking around. I wouldn't spend the money until I see a specimen that pleases me. I wouldn't grade the coins I see and I wouldn't look at the grade the seller gives it. I wouldn't worry about not getting a high enough grade for my money, because I wouldn't sell it. My taste would be the only deciding factor. It's not even a question of eye appeal, because that's not subjective enough. :)

Very important in my approach is never looking back. I don't keep records of what I paid, don't remember prices and don't care if I see a better specimen later. In fact, I bought most of my coins without consulting catalogue quotes or the internet. If I think it's worth it and I can afford it, that's enough. What counts very heavily is how badly I want the coin, though. That's not quite the same as chasing a coin. I look at what's available and decide what I like best.

Maybe an example might clarify that. In Madrid, I went around the market without a catalogue or want list. One dealer had a medal I liked. He wanted more money than I was prepared to pay. No deal. I enjoy going around and see some cheap, interesting counterstamped Spanish coins. Bought some. See some older Spanish coin that look identifiable to me but sit in a rummage tray. Got some, just for looking them up. In a lost corner is a lady with a bucket full of civil war emergency money. Got some. Got some more for friends. Enjoy sunshine. Talk to andyg and Spabreda, who have seen the medal and some more counterstampers. The medal is cheaper and better than the one I turned down. The counterstamped coins are too seductive not to add another sampling.

No planning, no specialisation, no inventory, badly updated want lists. Bliss for whatever I pick up. Grateful to friends. Make some happy with duplicates etc. It's a very relaxed way to go. I can recommend it.

Peter
Title: Re: Conservation and cleaning of modern coins
Post by: Prosit on November 19, 2013, 02:16:23 AM
And that is very close to they way I feel and do things too.  However there are several things uppermost in my mind when I buy what I consider an expensive coin which is rare but it does happen ocassionally.

1. I am not searching after nor do I want a counterfeit.
2. I am not wanting to spend more than I can get the coin I want from some other reputable dealer/seller.
3. I am not wanting a coin that really grades less than most people would grade it.

I do on ocassiona like I am talking about chase a specific coin with a certain eye appeal with usually goes with a specific grade.

What never enters my mind is speculation on a coin or what I can sell it for...I couldn't care as like you I am not going to sell it.

What does concern me is that if I buy a coin for $500 that should/could have cost me $250 is that I now have less scarce hobby funds to spend on some other coin(s). It isn't actually the fact that I paid too much, it is the fact that I unnecessairly restricted my hobby endevors for the next few months by paying too much.  Minor distinction but a real one for me.

Thinking about it, I haven't carried a coin list with prices to someplace where I bought a coin in...well I can't actually remember a time when I did that.

I like to get a few coins every month...can't always do it. If I was to buy a $250 coin then I am out of business for several months.

I think it some cases a TPG coin helps me maximize my enjoyment of the coin hobby by helping me not make a mistake.  Not fool proof but a help.

Dale




Sure, if that's way you like to do it, why not? It probably makes sense in your situation. It doesn't in mine.

If I were prepared to spend that kind of money on a single coin, I would budget an amount and start looking around. I wouldn't spend the money until I see a specimen that pleases me. I wouldn't grade the coins I see and I wouldn't look at the grade the seller gives it. I wouldn't worry about not getting a high enough grade for my money, because I wouldn't sell it. My taste would be the only deciding factor. It's not even a question of eye appeal, because that's not subjective enough. :)

Very important in my approach is never looking back. I don't keep records of what I paid, don't remember prices and don't care if I see a better specimen later. In fact, I bought most of my coins without consulting catalogue quotes or the internet. If I think it's worth it and I can afford it, that's enough. What counts very heavily is how badly I want the coin, though. That's not quite the same as chasing a coin. I look at what's available and decide what I like best.

Maybe an example might clarify that. In Madrid, I went around the market without a catalogue or want list. One dealer had a medal I liked. He wanted more money than I was prepared to pay. No deal. I enjoy going around and see some cheap, interesting counterstamped Spanish coins. Bought some. See some older Spanish coin that look identifiable to me but sit in a rummage tray. Got some, just for looking them up. In a lost corner is a lady with a bucket full of civil war emergency money. Got some. Got some more for friends. Enjoy sunshine. Talk to andyg and Spabreda, who have seen the medal and some more counterstampers. The medal is cheaper and better than the one I turned down. The counterstamped coins are too seductive not to add another sampling.

No planning, no specialisation, no inventory, badly updated want lists. Bliss for whatever I pick up. Grateful to friends. Make some happy with duplicates etc. It's a very relaxed way to go. I can recommend it.

Peter