World of Coins

Collecting coins => Fakes and imitations => Topic started by: Rangnath on April 03, 2007, 03:33:45 AM

Title: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rangnath on April 03, 2007, 03:33:45 AM
Somewhere up the Mekong, I purchased two coins from a "street" vendor.  I was sure one was a fake.  And the other, I don't know.  If "real", it should be Km 5a.1, French Indo China, a large silver coin.  Neither are magnetic, but the poorly struck coin is definitely lighter.  Having a scale would help. 
How does one decide if a coin is silver?
richie
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: bruce61813 on April 10, 2007, 05:19:30 PM
You will probably have 20 replies before I can get to my refernces1 but I generally aree with you. The top coin ouls seem odd as the only 'warn' areeas are in the center, on both sides, and there is something about the rim , especially on the reverse that is odd. I aam not an expert, and generally avoid commenting on fakes, but the top is really odd. If someone has the right volumes of Krauss, thay may be able to look up the the published weights for these, and I would expect them to be closer to the bottom coins.

Bruce
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rangnath on April 11, 2007, 12:20:04 AM
Bruce,
I agree with you.  I really should get a scale!  The weight answers lost of questions.
Richie
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: bruce61813 on April 11, 2007, 01:28:37 AM
Get a scale that will do .01 grams, that should do fine. Your 1896 coin should weigh 27.000 grams or .7812 ounces, That would be a tip. The book [Krause] lists it as .900 silver, so that would be .100 copper for the total assay.

Bruce
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on April 11, 2007, 09:07:24 AM
Two other things to do:

Check the edge. If the colour on the pic is representative for what the coin looks like, it may be silvered over. This is done by electrolysis. This technique requires that the coin is held in a liquid. It will have been fastened to an electrode on at least two points. Those two points should still be visible. They are practically always on the edge and look like small round discoloured pits or spots. If you have seen them once, you'll always recognize them.

Another easy check is what I call the "ping test". Place the coin on the top of a finger and strike it lightly with a metal object, like a fork. Struck coins wil emit a hgh, clear "ping", while cast coins will yield a dull "thud". This is due to the density of the metal in the coin. Cast coins will also be slightly larger than originals.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rangnath on April 11, 2007, 08:11:39 PM
Thanks Peter and Bruce.  I looked for electrolysis pits.  And I found two in the obvious fake, but not the slightly smaller coin which was thicker and heavier. Then I tried the "ping" method.  Frankly, both pinged.  But one sounded nicer, that is the ping lasted longer, seemed "purer".  And then I had them weighed.  One weighed 16.4 gms.  That was my obvious fake.  The other weighed 24.7 gms.  Not a good sign.  Close, but 2.3 gms light.  Finally, I was told by the owner of the scale to look at the milling. "Notice", he said, "how irregular the milling is and the occasional pieces of metal".  I've included two views of the milled surface of the coin.  Alas, I'm convinced that my great deal in Laos (a dollar?) was a FRAUD!  On the other hand, I've rarely gotten so much entertainment from the purchase of a dollar.  And I've learned quite a bit.
ricihie
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on April 11, 2007, 09:41:14 PM
Actually, whether the fake is a total loss depends on how you see it. I don't think it's one of the modern fakes coming from Indonesia made for unaware tourists, so there's a more than fair chance that this is a contemporary counterfeit. For one thing, those circulated as money. For another, they are just as much part of numismatic history as the genuine article. The trick is never to offer it as anything but a fake. An interesting fake, though. In addition, you have the entertaining story of how and where you bought it.

I have several contemporary counterfeits in my collection, clearly marked fake on the coin carton. Guess what. They are the ones that usually get the attention from my visitors, whether or not they are numismatically inclined!

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rangnath on April 12, 2007, 05:42:29 PM
I agree with you totally Peter.  This has been great fun. 
richie
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: andyg on March 06, 2012, 08:19:50 PM
Fake coins do not have to be cast - see,
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2180&Counterfeit-Detection:-China-2010-500-Yuan-Panda (http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2180&Counterfeit-Detection:-China-2010-500-Yuan-Panda)
or
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=940 (http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=940)

or
http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/l/bl_chinese_fakes_bought_by_pcgs.htm (http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/l/bl_chinese_fakes_bought_by_pcgs.htm)



If the OP is happy with them, then keep them - it's not as if I have anything to gain (or lose)
I really do hope that I am wrong in this instance.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Md. Shariful Islam on March 06, 2012, 08:46:32 PM

If the OP is happy with them, then keep them - it's not as if I have anything to gain (or lose)
I really do hope that I am wrong in this instance.

Nice valuable links Andy. The discussions on the link are really useful. What we are trying to do is helping our friends and fighting against fakes. But the risk is our guess may be wrong. The person with the coin at hand is the best judge.

Islam
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 06, 2012, 10:31:50 PM
I wrote a PM to the originator of this thread about fake coins noting that they did not have to be cast.  He might wish to publish that however Andy has linked to important information.

Pictures in differing light and angles (thus causing shadows and elongation) can make very good coins look bad and at times make bad coins look good. The old trick of the light stunt.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 07, 2012, 12:59:40 AM
Perhaps we can hive off a new thread on a discussion about fakes. The issue on this coin has become somewhat clouded. Coins that have circulated have issues not the least of which modern machine struck coins ( yes I rate this as modern given the manufacturing technique) have many issues in that die faults and clogging can lead to the production of thousands of coins with an apparent fault on later examination that are allowed to pass into circulation. In early machine made coins (and sometimes now) die differences from the same mint do appear.

As a minor piece of advice on fakes. For many years I have worked with a number of associates in helping people invest in coins. This has been a free service and usually happens through a network of friends. Last year, after a long search of some two years, I found a dealer of high reputation to recommend for this very obscure and rather (comparatively) expensive series. An order of some $12000 as an initial purchase was drawn up when a coin, honestly described by the seller, was queried on a major board as to the honesty of description. There was nothing wrong with the coin and the description was honest. The debate ran for some time and a number of self appointed experts (the real ones were somewhat absent in the discussion) declared the coin suspect. The buyer mentioned above pulled out of the whole deal and I lost a little personal reputation (who really cares at this point in time) and the dealer lost what would have been a sale for his total inventory of these coins and continuing relationship with a buyer that would have spanned many happy years.

So when we condemn or doubt a coin we must be certain in our doubts. In fact it is a black and white answer. The either a fake or forgery or real. There really can be no suggestion such as I am suspicious etc. it is real or it is not.

Just my thoughts noting that we do not and cannot collect BU or proof coins with an absolute untarnished pedigree.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: andyg on March 07, 2012, 01:16:33 AM
How do you know if your food is off if all you are allowed is a picture?

Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 07, 2012, 01:20:50 AM
An abolutely true statement. Perhaps a separate thread somewhere?
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: repindia on March 07, 2012, 05:39:57 AM
So when we condemn or doubt a coin we must be certain in our doubts. In fact it is a black and white answer. The either a fake or forgery or real. There really can be no suggestion such as I am suspicious etc. it is real or it is not.
I have seen many times on the boards when many posters with no or less knowledge give opinions and just due to the fact that high post counts can be equated to more knowledge! I would request everybody to post only when they are dead sure of the facts, or else we would end up in a situation which you have experienced!
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Md. Shariful Islam on March 07, 2012, 05:59:53 AM
I personally feel that if a member has a doubt on any coin posted, that may or may not caused by poor photography, should share without hasitaion. The ultimate decider is the coin owner as he has the coin at hand and is a better judge. Sometimes doubts expressed by a member may be helpful to avoid getting fooled by fakers.

I have at least two experience where a doubt from a member helped me to identify a fake. I had to invent myself to test the acceptability of the claims of the members. Until I was satisfied I did not give up.

Islam
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 07, 2012, 06:32:38 AM
I have written PM's to a couple of folks here suggesting that we write up a procedure to follow on the issue of suspected fakes.

I have a procedure I have followed for many years and it certainly is easier now than it was 40 years ago.

In more recent times time I have adapted my lectures on negotiating to cover all the necessary points in the decision making process.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Harry on March 07, 2012, 05:37:51 PM
I agree with Islam, if we are suspicious about a coin we should voice it.  I dont agree that we should be 100% sure before voicing our opinion on the authenticity of a coin.  There is no difference if a member spots a fake on ebay and writes about it saying I think its a fake or Is this a fake?

Im not an expert myself but I have often voiced my opinion  on coins which includes its authenticity, condition, toning, market price and if it has been cleaned or not. All these factors  has some bearing of the price of a coin.
 
I have learnt a lot for the people who participate on this forum.  I for example thought that a William 2 Mohur had been cleaned and stated it. However, two members corrected me and said its more likely that the die was polished and not the coin. Wow! I learnt something new. 

Its this free exchange of opinions by experts and novices that make WOC fun. So lets keep it that way!
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: FosseWay on March 07, 2012, 08:40:41 PM
I don't think anyone can be 100% sure a coin is fake or genuine from a picture.

I agree with Islam and others that if you have doubts it's reasonable, and hopefully helpful, to air them. However, you should always qualify your statement with:

(a) how (un)certain you admit to being yourself about your diagnosis
(b) a reasoned argument for your diagnosis
(c) some information about your (in)experience in the field in question.

That will allow all concerned to make best use of what you have to say.

I disagree that we shouldn't stick our necks out from time to time because there's a risk that someone will either feel hard done by having supposedly had a bona fide purchase revealed as fake, or they'll ditch/sell for a loss a coin that turned out to be genuine. Anyone who does that purely on the basis of the opinion of someone they've never met (however knowledgeable they claim to be) and who has never seen the coin in question in real life deserves any unwelcome consequences, to be honest.

Also, if you post a picture of a coin you own on a website, you are implicitly inviting comments on it. If you don't want to risk getting negative comments, don't post the picture. The corollary of that is that most people who post pictures of their coins actively do want comments from others, which should be given in a helpful and knowledgeable spirit rather than as a sanitised version designed to be as bland as possible and not to hurt anyone's feelings.

I don't possess any coins that, if revealed to be fake, would significantly affect the value of my collection, and I'm pretty sure I know which of my coins are fake. But if I posted a picture and someone queried the authenticity of the coin, I'd take that as a suggestion I should get it checked out, rather than as the gospel truth.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 07, 2012, 10:04:12 PM
I am preparing a series of articles on collecting coins. This is will include a section or two about fakes.

While on the subject and various discussions that are currently occurring, a discussion of a coin has a number of sides that must be discussed and I am not talking about just the obverse and reverse.

If you want to ask about a coin there are a number of things that must be disclosed and one of those is the source of the coin. yes folks you must give the source of the coin. Broadly you get nothing for nothing and nothing for free but there are times when you can pick up absolute bargains and there are times when the ebst of deals go sour rapidly.

The articles will be set out as I set my lectures out on negotiatinOnce you get the drift of what I am saying the process becomes very easy and very quick. Oh I also know that everyone believes they are a great negotiator so perhaps I am wasting everyone's time. But If it saves one person one dollar I will be happy.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Md. Shariful Islam on March 07, 2012, 10:28:54 PM
I am preparing a series of articles on collecting coins. This is will include a section or two about fakes.

While on the subject and various discussions that are currently occurring, a discussion of a coin has a number of sides that must be discussed and I am not talking about just the obverse and reverse.

If you want to ask about a coin there are a number of things that must be disclosed and one of those is the source of the coin. yes folks you must give the source of the coin. Broadly you get nothing for nothing and nothing for free but there are times when you can pick up absolute bargains and there are times when the ebst of deals go sour rapidly.

The articles will be set out as I set my lectures out on negotiatinOnce you get the drift of what I am saying the process becomes very easy and very quick. Oh I also know that everyone believes they are a great negotiator so perhaps I am wasting everyone's time. But If it saves one person one dollar I will be happy.

Dear sir,

Are planning to write academic articles?
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: akona20 on March 07, 2012, 10:37:19 PM
Hi Sharif,

I think we have enough to do at present after my latest research to keep us academicaly busy for some time.

The articles will be published here as a series. I am preparing Part 1 now and hope to post it shortly. Note you have a project PM coming shortly.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: gerard974 on March 10, 2012, 12:37:24 PM
Hello
A friend (no numismate) has gived to me a fake coin from French Indochina,one piastre KM 5a1 year 1924. Those coin is the same that the good coin in silver with the same inscriptions but is in steel (magnetic) and the weight is 17 gramms at the place of 27 gramms. I keep in my collection for to seen the good and the no good coin
Best regards  Gerard
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: statmatics on June 04, 2014, 02:57:09 AM
Here is an unusual coin sent to me by a guy named Larry. Normal French Indo-China piastres start in 1885. This one is dated 1883. There are variations in pattern, especially the '27 gram' inscription, and the date is funny. Is this just another fake (a pretty good one), or some kind of pre-release pattern? It's got me stumped.

Hi-res images are available at: http://statmatics.com/piastre/ (http://statmatics.com/piastre/)

Thanks,
Paul Richards
CoinQuest
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Levantiner on June 04, 2014, 07:53:28 AM
In one reference I have it is noted that the Piastre de Commerce was authorised in  april 1879..but not struck until 1885.  Could it be possible there were trial strikes?
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on June 04, 2014, 12:35:02 PM
The 8 and 3 in the date are out of whack with the other numbers. I suspect a doctored coin, changed date from 1898? That explains the weight indication.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: malj1 on June 04, 2014, 03:00:02 PM
I showed a couple of fakes here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?topic=4361.msg164792#msg164792) last year of the 27gr types.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on June 04, 2014, 03:05:20 PM
Good clue! The 1882 coin in that thread also has misaligned numbers in the date. It seems like the ones lower down were made from scratch.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: statmatics on June 04, 2014, 03:07:55 PM
You guys are amazing! Except for the date, it's a good fake. -- Paul R.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: malj1 on June 04, 2014, 03:15:00 PM
The most obvious feature - the spikes around the head are quite different, yet very similar to other one that I linked to.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: kirit on December 12, 2014, 11:54:53 AM
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/12/ba9e4c9961b338d33476d2ba34868491.jpg)
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: kirit on December 12, 2014, 11:57:57 AM
Beautiful coin ,Napoleon3.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Manzikert on December 12, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
Modern forgery/fantasy (probably Chinese?) I'm afraid

Alan
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: kirit on December 12, 2014, 02:18:38 PM
May be Chinese replica ...don't know much detail about this.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on December 17, 2014, 12:01:03 AM
It is quite useful to provide the diameter of machine-struck coins. Once the reducing lathe was invented, exactly the same design could be used for a series of coins in different sizes.

Nevertheless, this is a fake in any size.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: redwine on April 19, 2015, 12:22:22 PM
25.3mm (2.85mm depth)
8.35g
Medal aligned
Brass
Seam running around edge

O: LUD. XVI. D. G. FR. ET NAV. REX.
R: CHRS. REGN. VINC. IMPE 1777 /

Edit: added seam piccy
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on April 19, 2015, 09:44:35 PM
The genuine piece is 8.158 grams and 24 mm.

None of the marks are correct for 1777. The should be the mint mark. Known marks are A, H, L and &. What I interpret as a climbing lion in front of the date should have been a harp and what I see as a tower below the bust should have been a stork, acorn on branch, double tulip or heart. I think the tower and climbing lion are hints to who had the piece made and the is just what it usually is.

Colour, weight and size are off, though not by much and there are obvious design differences, so there is no intention to deceive. The designers knew what the marks were for. I would guess that the issuer is a French numismatic club. It's too good to be for an uninformed public.

Maybe our francophone friends know more?

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: redwine on April 20, 2015, 08:12:59 AM
Thanks Peter.  ;D
I'll ask Paris.
My guess is a French collectibles / coin mag. ::)
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: gerard974 on March 18, 2016, 02:50:03 PM
hello
one nice fake coins found on a second hand market
in 1773 the French Indochine ,the French republic dont exist and the engraver "BARRE" is not born
but for the price  of 1 euro ,i have buy

url=http://www.servimg.com/view/14892087/1183](http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/14/89/20/87/ind_1_10.jpg)[/url]

(http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/14/89/20/87/ind_2_10.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/view/14892087/1184)

best regards  Gerard
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Arminius on March 18, 2016, 07:52:08 PM
Magnetic material? (27 g 0.900 silver for 1 Euro would be great !)
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: gerard974 on March 19, 2016, 03:49:12 AM
hello
sorry i have forgot
is no magnetic and the weight is 26.04 grams
best regards  Gerard
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Arminius on March 19, 2016, 08:42:20 AM
Supposing its not silver, any idea about the metal alloy?
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: gerard974 on March 19, 2016, 11:30:46 AM
is not the same noise that silver but i dont know the alloy
Gerard
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: aman on May 16, 2017, 11:44:36 AM
Dear members,

I have recently purchased french coin from the year 1793. the details are mentioned below along with the pictures. Could anyone help me authenticate it?

Metal: Silver
Weight: 29.34 g
Diameter   38.5 mm
Thickness   2.8 mm

Regards,
Aman
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: redwine on May 16, 2017, 06:44:56 PM
It could well be a copy  :-\
See here (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/France-6-livres-1793-A-Revolution-coin-COPY-FREE-SHIPPING/708824_32650190903.html)
Original here (http://www.monnaiesdantan.com/vso13/ecu-livres-francoise-1793-p1025.htm)
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: maudry on May 16, 2017, 07:57:12 PM
I don't like it - general appearance.
The crown of the rooster is different form all I have checked right now, no matter which mint mark.
Here are two more originals to compare with.
http://www.cgb.fr/la-convention-six-livres-dit-au-genie-1793-metz,v40_0341,a.html
http://www.cgb.fr/la-convention-six-livres-dit-au-genie-1793-metz,v28_1267,a.html
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: redwine on May 16, 2017, 08:32:18 PM
For me it's the L'AN II that gives it away
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: FosseWay on May 16, 2017, 10:13:19 PM
And the AA mintmark.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: aman on May 17, 2017, 08:25:20 AM
Thank you everyone for your valuable time and inputs (Also for educating a novice)!! Thankfully i did not pay much for it and will consider it as a reminder for the near future.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: MORGENSTERNN on May 19, 2017, 02:04:14 PM
Hello,

What do you think about those chops ?
Not a common host if genuine.
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rockhan46 on May 22, 2017, 12:15:38 PM
Hi,

I need information about attached Cancer coins. I searched on internet but I could not find any information.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on May 22, 2017, 12:45:23 PM
This is not a coin. Turn your picture 90 clockwise and you will see what remains of a ring at 12 o'clock, showing that it was part of a jewellery item. The word CANCER confirms that it is not of Indian origin.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Rockhan46 on May 22, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
Yes you are right Peter. There was a part like a necklace. There was written 23 JVIL and 23 JVIN. What is the meaning. What can be price of this medal.

Thanks,

Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on May 22, 2017, 06:12:11 PM
I presume those are dates in French: 23 juillet (July) and 23 juin (June). The astrological sign of cancer spans the 90-120th degree of the zodiac. Under the tropical zodiac, the Sun transits this area on average between June 22 and July 22

If the medal is made of good silver, you should be able to get silver value minus melting cost. If it is silver, there should be a silver hallmark somewhere, though it might have broken off with the ring.

Peter
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: maxmissy on May 22, 2017, 06:18:35 PM
No mystery at all : Look to zodiac - These dates are the beginning and end of the cancer period in the zodiac
Title: Re: Fake French and French colonial coins and medals
Post by: Figleaf on May 23, 2017, 01:24:13 PM
Characters look OK to me, but I am not an expert. Indeed, chops on French coins are not often encountered, but it is easy to construe a scenario that explains their presence in China, through the military and the French presence in Indo-China. There is little incentive for fraudsters to fabricate the chops: most chopped coins are cheaper than unchopped coins.

You could try a PM to our member square earth, who can tell whether the characters look well written or clumsy.

Peter