World of Coins

Medieval and cash coins => Cash type coins => Topic started by: bart on March 08, 2008, 10:32:45 AM

Title: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: bart on March 08, 2008, 10:32:45 AM
And the sixth and last coin is attributed to Vinh Huu (1735-1740).
Size is 23 mm.

Bart
Title: Re: "Vietnamese Old Coins" / Vinh Huu 1735-1740 ?
Post by: translateltd on March 08, 2008, 07:16:45 PM
This one will need more research to determine its authenticity and link to Vietnam.  It's a very famous coin, mainly because of the characters, which are considered beautiful/auspicious.  In China it's Yongle (or Yonglo) Tongbao, 1403-1424, and in Japan (where it was widely copied) Eiraku Tsuho.  Apparently no original coins were made during the reign period in question but a subsequent Emperor wanted some made retrospectively to fill a gap in his collection, and they became so popular that they were copied everywhere, so Vietnam isn't out of the question.  I don't know if "Vinh Huu" is the Vietnamese reading of these characters - it sounds a bit remote to me, but could be possible at a pinch.

I have examples bought in Japan over 20 years ago, some supposedly Chinese and others Japanese, and one apparently from Java ...

Martin
NZ

And the sixth and last coin is attributed to Vinh Huu (1735-1740).
Size is 23 mm.

Bart
Title: Re: "Vietnamese Old Coins" / Vinh Huu 1735-1740 ?
Post by: nguyen anh tu on December 07, 2009, 09:37:52 AM
VĨNH LẠC THONG BAO !
Title: Re: "Vietnamese Old Coins" / Vinh Huu 1735-1740 ?
Post by: Figleaf on December 07, 2009, 12:28:43 PM
Is VĨNH LẠC the name of an emperor?

Peter
Title: Re: "Vietnamese Old Coins" / Vinh Huu 1735-1740 ?
Post by: translateltd on December 07, 2009, 07:09:32 PM
Is VĨNH LẠC the name of an emperor?

Peter

VĨNH LẠC is the Vietnamese reading of the top and bottom characters (EI-RAKU in Japanese and YONG-LO in Chinese).  I believe it was the reign title used on the "original restrikes" (see my posting of 8/3/08 above) covering the period 1403-1424.

Title: Re: "Vietnamese Old Coins" / Vinh Huu 1735-1740 ?
Post by: Figleaf on December 10, 2009, 12:33:38 AM
Here is the drawing in Remmelts. The original is ascribed to emperor Ch'eng Tsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle_Emperor): yung-lo t'ung pao. I have no way of telling if this is an original or not, but I find it significant that this is one of the lowest priced coins in Remmelts. Maybe originals and imitations can no longer be told apart?

Peter
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: Figleaf on December 04, 2013, 02:13:14 PM
And here is my copy. For lack of detailed knowledge, I'll consider it Chinese. It came with some other Chinese coins.

Peter
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: bgriff99 on September 22, 2014, 05:19:50 AM
Bart, your coin appears to be a Chinese original, or direct copy.   Japanese specimens usually show slight magnetism.   They were made during the Chinese reign as inscribed in great quantity for export as well as domestic use.    It is just those widely exported cash that were often copied, as these were in Vietnam and Indonesia also.    The originals exhibit only miniscule variations.   They were the predominant cash coin in Japan for some 100 years.

There are several Vietnamese reign titles with this same top character, but none with both the same.  "Vinh huu" 1735-40 is a different bottom character.   No coins were issued with that inscription officially, nor to my knowledge, privately.   "Vinh lac" is the Vietnamese pronunciation of the Yung le characters.   Numismatically that usually refers to pieces in zinc made with that inscription by the Nguyen lords in S. Vietnam.   Along with nearly a hundred other inscriptions.    There are other Vietnamese copies, some with their own distinct style of calligraphy, some intended to pass as originals.   Much cruder copies made in Java are known as "Shima-sen" (Japanese = island cash). 

Figleaf, if your copy (a beauty) is magnetic, it's Japanese.   All of those have been cataloged, so you can probably track it down.
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: Figleaf on September 22, 2014, 11:06:50 AM
Thank you bgriff. Useful detail. Unfortunately, this coin was stolen, so I can no longer test it for magnetism.

Peter
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424).
Post by: bgriff99 on September 23, 2014, 04:16:30 AM
This is a Chinese original of the most common variety.   They were first cast in 1408.   In 1410 four other provinces were ordered to begin casting.   That about corresponds to the number of varieties, so it is presumed no year variations are coded into the calligraphy.    It is not known for certain whether any slightly sub-quality pieces are contemporary forgeries of some kind, or just lower quality provincial issues.   A good deal of metal analysis has been done, so it can be generalized that magnetism indicates a Japanese copy, a few of which are fairly common.
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424)
Post by: bgriff99 on September 23, 2014, 06:02:53 AM
This is the Vietnamese zinc "Vinh-lac" coin cast by a private mint under license by the Nguyen lords of the Dang Trong kingdom (Cochin China) in the 1740's.   A great number of reign titles, real and fanciful, were used.   It is thought the various private minters each were assigned patterns for purposes of control.   This coin does not intend to impersonate the originals.   It is somewhat scarce.
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: Figleaf on September 23, 2014, 11:21:40 AM
The illustrations are very helpful. Yet, I wonder if you can give us some particular points to look at. This being a common coin, I presume many of us have a specimen. The magnetism test is easy, but how about the Vietnamese version? Is the Vinh character always shaped a bit differently (or am I seeing things?)

Peter
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424).
Post by: bgriff99 on September 23, 2014, 11:38:24 AM
This is a privately made Vietnamese merchant cash.    It belongs to a large group with similar writing style, made of leaded bronze.   They were probably issued in the north (Tonkin), because their metal content conforms to copper mined there, and there are records of such coins being made.    They are found in a range of sizes from 23mm down to about 19.   The largest cash are presumed oldest, and are always the scarcest.  The common ones are about 20-21mm.  This piece is 23.0mm.    Identical ones exist at a variety of sizes down to 20.8mm.  Issue date of this, very roughly 1560, although some sources put it later.
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424).
Post by: bgriff99 on September 23, 2014, 12:35:26 PM
Peter,

There are only three types of Yung-lo copy conventionally attributed to Vietnam.    The two posted so far are nothing like the originals, which are very nearly all identical.    The third kind (which I'll post) attempts to look genuine, and so is only recognizable by its minute flaws and being only 23mm (or less) versus an original at 24.5 or so.

The situation with Japanese copies and Indonesian crude copies runs to hundreds of varieties.   The Japanese coins can be made using originals as seed coins directly, or with retooling, or from wholly new mother cash.   But all of them strive to look like the originals, and so defy verbal description without pictures to go along.    Unfortunately I only have two pieces of Chinese originals, which is by no means an adequate reference collection.

I can put up a couple Japanese (probably) ones to show how to spot the retooling even when there is no magnetism.   Those made with completely new mother cash are almost all rare, and also difficult to detect for certain unless the coin is clear, and a reference book is in hand.   I don't have any.
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424). Remmelts 168
Post by: Figleaf on September 23, 2014, 03:04:41 PM
I highly appreciate your effort, bgriff. Thanks a lot, also in the name of the many anonymous passers-by.

Peter
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424).
Post by: bgriff99 on September 24, 2014, 05:35:58 AM
These are three examples of a different type of Vietnamese copy, intended to pass as genuine.    They are 23mm, one millimeter under normal.   The writing is "soft" not "crisp", and generally lacks the brushstroke quality of the originals.

Copy 1 is full of flaws, with fuzzy strokes.   The second is better.   The third is excellent with flourishes in the top stroke the originals do not have.   I have 8 of them total, all from the same lot, and look like all the same private mint's work.   It was Japanese numismatists who decided this issue is Vietnamese.   
Title: Re: China, Yung-lo (1403-1424)
Post by: bgriff99 on September 24, 2014, 07:47:53 AM
Now for Japan.   This would be called "Katou Eiraku", meaning a copy from a Yung-lo retooled for use as a mother cash.   The coin is non-magnetic, 24.2mm.
The retooling is to deepen and sharpen edges so the newly cast coin doesn't lose sharpness.   Yung-lo have shallow relief to begin with.   

Here the cutting accidentally went into both the rim and the centerframe.   No regular issue of Yung-lo will have that.   Then there are a few other very minute evidences of tooling.   These coins (assuming this is Japanese) were made as an outlet for copper production.   That is, to sell copper, not to counterfeit underweight coins or adulterate alloy.   In Japan there were used some wholly new-carved mother cash for Yung-lo, which are scarce to rare, and I don't have any.

Katou-sen overall are any of the many recut copies of all kinds, but most often Sung, made in Japan after copper was discovered and being smelted but before there was a national coinage.   Unlike the Yung-lo copies, they got really creative with changing the Sung cash.

This piece being non-magnetic makes it kind of an orphan, which came in a lot of 12 which could not be sold as genuine Yung-lo nor the somewhat valuable definitely Japanese pieces.   So for $10 came the 8 previously discussed Vietnamese copies, 2 katou-eiraku, one shima-sen, and one worn original.