World of Coins

Modern coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens of other continents => Sub-Saharan Africa => Topic started by: <k> on February 10, 2012, 10:07:17 PM

Title: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 10, 2012, 10:07:17 PM
Parent topic:  Portraits of African Leaders (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,13727.0.html)


The parent topic (above) presents a series of numismatic portraits of political leaders from sub-Saharan Africa. Please post any comments, questions or corrections here.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: kena on February 10, 2012, 10:50:46 PM
The former president of Namibia - Sam Nujoma is on the 2010 $10 coin from there.

I can provide pictures of the coin if needed.

Ken
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 10, 2012, 10:54:14 PM
Thanks, Ken. You can either post them here, and I'll link to them when I get there (could take a couple of evenings yet!), or else PM me with your preferred method.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: kena on February 10, 2012, 10:58:06 PM
Here are pics of the coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Nujoma for information about Sam.

Ken
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 10, 2012, 11:07:54 PM
Thanks, Ken - very nice images.  ;)  8)
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: translateltd on February 11, 2012, 09:15:50 PM
Seeing Daniel Arap Moi reminds me of a headline in the Spectator a number of years ago, "L'Etat, c'est Moi".

Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 11, 2012, 09:24:03 PM
He's still alive - I'll tell him that.  ;D
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: Figleaf on February 12, 2012, 01:44:09 AM
Don't forget the kings of Morocco. They and the negus can claim the right of royalty to be on coins. Egypt's Nasser appeared on pseudo coins, though not during his lie if I remember correctly.

Peter
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 12, 2012, 01:49:58 AM
Well, our boards are divided into North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa, so I intend to exclude the North Africans and maybe do a separate topic for them, but including also the Middle East.

Still not sure whether I should restrict THIS topic to black Africans. Maybe at the end I will include Mauritius, Seychelles, and the Afrikaner presidents of South Africa.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: kena on February 12, 2012, 08:59:56 AM
May I ask why you are thinking about restricting this just "black" Africans?

For example, if you do that, then you ignore the country of Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek and Stephanus Johannes Paulus Kruger who appeared on ZAR coins as well as the Krugerrand.

I can understand not including coins from countries which had British Monarchs on them.

Ken
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: Figleaf on February 12, 2012, 12:57:33 PM
Well, our boards are divided into North Africa and Sub-Saharan Africa, so I intend to exclude the North Africans and maybe do a separate topic for them, but including also the Middle East.

Brilliant. Looking forward.

Still not sure whether I should restrict THIS topic to black Africans. Maybe at the end I will include Mauritius, Seychelles, and the Afrikaner presidents of South Africa.

You show three classes of leaders  and therefore create a fourth class: those pictured on coins while in office, otherwise known - with the exception of royalty - as "tin pot dictators" (thanks, Ms. Thatcher), those pictured while alive and those pictured while being dead. The fourth class is leaders not on coins. That division transcends race, so I would argue the non-blacks fully belong in the thread. You might even consider splitting the thread thusly. It would be interesting to see where freedom-fighters/terrorists/first presidents/heroes-of-independence come in. I am still wondering about the suitability of agitators (in the most neutral sense of the word) to be administrators (also meant neutrally) and vice versa.

Peter
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 12, 2012, 02:24:12 PM
May I ask why you are thinking about restricting this just "black" Africans?

For example, if you do that, then you ignore the country of Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek and Stephanus Johannes Paulus Kruger who appeared on ZAR coins as well as the Krugerrand.

I can understand not including coins from countries which had British Monarchs on them.

Ken

The topic title includes the phrase "African leaders". I asked myself how I should define "African": ethnically only, or geographically, because if you are born in Africa, as say an Afrikaner, that makes you African too in a sense. So I will probably group the ethnic Africans together then finish off with those of Asian, mixed, and European descent.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 12, 2012, 03:10:23 PM
I have just reordered the posts of the topic, so that the countries now appear in alphabetical order (though I have logically included Zaire with Congo DR). As I was progressing yesterday, I was looking only at countries with circulation coins but was surprised to find that a few countries had issued portraits only on gold and silver collector pieces. This reminds me that a couple of the so called "homelands" of apartheid South Africa also produced portrait pieces (Bophuphatswana, for one), but I may not be successful in finding those, so any help would be appreciated.  ;)
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 12, 2012, 04:21:50 PM
and those pictured while dead.

Peter

That is the only class I am leaving out. Maybe someone else could do a topic on those.  ;)

It would be interesting to see where freedom-fighters/terrorists/first presidents/heroes-of-independence come in. I am still wondering about the suitability of agitators (in the most neutral sense of the word) to be administrators (also meant neutrally) and vice versa.

Sometimes it works, as seen in the case of Mandela, who was a great conciliator (and way over in Northern Ireland, also in the case of Martin McGuinness of Sinn Fein, also a great conciliator, but he is not relevant to this topic). However, reading the Wikipedia pieces on several of the other African leaders has reminded me of nothing so much as ancient Rome, with its treachery, infamy, turmoil and assassinations. There are of course good reasons for that, given the way black Africa was first enslaved and then dumped, largely unprepared, into the modern world.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: chrisild on February 15, 2012, 12:02:37 AM
This reminds me that a couple of the so called "homelands" of apartheid South Africa also produced portrait pieces (Bophuphatswana, for one)

This is the one ... and I think it is the only one:
http://www.24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=bophuthatswana.html

As far as I know, Bophuthatswana was the only "independent homeland" that issued "coins" at all. They had two collector pieces (gold, platinum) made in 1987, for the 10th anniversary of their, hmm, independence. The platinum piece depicts Lucas Mangope.

Christian
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 15, 2012, 01:18:39 AM
Thanks, Christian. Interesting to see it again. I'm not keen on the image quality, I must admit, so I'm holding out for a better image.

As the ad says, "the territory constituted a scattered patchwork of individual enclaves".  Strange times.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 15, 2012, 01:40:05 AM
Schön has an [M] for the mint against this coin of Equatorial Guinea, but there are a few listed as M in his index - some of them unlikely, such as India. Does anyone know who minted this piece? The portrait is excellent, and naturally I'm wondering who designed it, though I think I'm unlikely ever to find out. Surprisingly, Schön lists the 1975 pieces as being by the Royal Mint, but an online search of their documents in the National Archives gives me no results for Equatorial Guinea.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q8glLgPmEe8/TzmYKbPE7KI/AAAAAAAAF9g/3QPZOGZ51SU/s220/EG%25201980-50%2520Bipkwele.jpg)
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: chrisild on February 15, 2012, 08:43:14 AM
Does anyone know who minted this piece?

Gerhard Schön may know for sure what the "[M]" means in this context ... I would hazard a guess that it short for Madrid. The FNMT-RCM made and still makes various other products (stamps, ID documents, etc.) for Equatorial Guinea. Melbourne and Moscow, I don't think so. :)

Christian
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: translateltd on February 15, 2012, 09:16:47 AM
Are the six-pointed stars either side of the date a clue?  In fact, look closely at those stars and you'll see incuse date digits, just as on contemporary Spanish coins.  (Schön states as much in the introductory paragraphs to the E.G. listings, in the 2011 edition, at least.)



Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 15, 2012, 01:28:53 PM
Aha, so it could be Madrid! Thanks, Martin and Christian.  ;)  The portrait is so good, I wondered if it was by a British artist - who knows, maybe one freelanced for Madrid - not impossible, but unlikely, I think!
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: translateltd on February 15, 2012, 07:28:36 PM
You can safely replace "could be" with "is", from the evidence on the coin and the catalogue reference.  I thought even the date digits looked similar to those on Spanish coins of 1980 but that could be wishful thinking.

Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: africancoins on February 15, 2012, 08:33:05 PM
I covered this subject here...

http://www.wbcc.fsnet.co.uk/af-equ.htm

and that was likely about 10 years ago being as there is no date at the end of the page.

Thanks Mr Paul Baker
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on February 16, 2012, 01:50:41 AM
Thanks for that, Paul. The Schön catalogue doesn't give a mint for this portrait either, but we have a clue. Zaire/Congo/Belgian Congo: yes, we can see a link with Belgium, one of whose languages is Dutch. The other possibility is the Netherlands, which also has a mint, of course. It is interesting to ponder which language is used in the Belgian Mint - or are both French and Dutch used, but with strict demarcation lines?

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9499.0;attach=13186;image)
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: andyg on March 22, 2012, 05:59:19 PM
Schön has an [M] for the mint against this coin of Equatorial Guinea, but there are a few listed as M in his index - some of them unlikely, such as India. Does anyone know who minted this piece? The portrait is excellent, and naturally I'm wondering who designed it, though I think I'm unlikely ever to find out. Surprisingly, Schön lists the 1975 pieces as being by the Royal Mint, but an online search of their documents in the National Archives gives me no results for Equatorial Guinea.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Q8glLgPmEe8/TzmYKbPE7KI/AAAAAAAAF9g/3QPZOGZ51SU/s220/EG%25201980-50%2520Bipkwele.jpg)

Elsewhere I read that Krause think this portrait is that of one T.E.Nkogo?
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on March 22, 2012, 06:44:21 PM
Elsewhere I read that Krause think this portrait is that of one T.E.Nkogo?

The Schön catalogue identifies him as Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. I find Schön is more often right, but, searching the web, I see there is doubt about the identity of the man portrayed, probably due to the obscurity of Equatorial Guinea and its politics.

Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: andyg on March 22, 2012, 07:13:00 PM
The Schön catalogue identifies him as Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. I find Schön is more often right, but, searching the web, I see there is doubt about the identity of the man portrayed, probably due to the obscurity of Equatorial Guinea and its politics.



Yes I agree - I wonder if Gerhard will share his source with us.
It could well be that Krause is wrong - and have caused the confusion!
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: Gerhard Schön on April 01, 2012, 06:19:32 PM
Schön has an [M] for the mint against this coin of Equatorial Guinea, but there are a few listed as M in his index - some of them unlikely, such as India. Does anyone know who minted this piece?

The 1969 and 1980 dated circulation coins of Equatorial Guinea have been produced by the Fábrica Nacional de Moneda y Timbre in Madrid.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: Gerhard Schön on April 01, 2012, 06:50:36 PM
The Schön catalogue identifies him as Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo. I find Schön is more often right, but, searching the web, I see there is doubt about the identity of the man portrayed, probably due to the obscurity of Equatorial Guinea and its politics.

Why should it not be Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, the current president of Equatorial Guinea who assumed power in 1979?
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on April 01, 2012, 07:24:10 PM
The 1969 and 1980 dated circulation coins of Equatorial Guinea have been produced by the Fábrica Nacional de Moneda y Timbre in Madrid.

Thank you, Gerhard. So they mint coins and print stamps at the same place, it seems.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: <k> on April 01, 2012, 07:24:24 PM
Why should it not be Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, the current president of Equatorial Guinea who assumed power in 1979?

That does seem logical.
Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: andyg on April 01, 2012, 09:22:43 PM
Quote
Elsewhere I read that Krause think this portrait is that of one T.E.Nkogo?

Why should it not be Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, the current president of Equatorial Guinea who assumed power in 1979?

Thanks Gerhard.

The best part of this forum is that we can ask them (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,14561.msg100176.html#msg100176)  :)

Title: Re: Comments on "Portraits of African Leaders"
Post by: Gerhard Schön on April 02, 2012, 08:19:00 PM
yes, we can see a link with Belgium, one of whose languages is Dutch.
(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13661.0;attach=20738;image)
The obverse of this piece has been taken from the Kinshasa International Fair 1972 token produced by the Brussels Mint for the Bank of Zaire and was modelled by Roger Duterme.