World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => British India => Topic started by: Overlord on March 01, 2008, 01:31:17 PM

Title: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Overlord on March 01, 2008, 01:31:17 PM
Here is a George VI 1 Rupee from my collection. As in the case of 1/4 and 1/2 Rupee coins, the silver content was reduced from 0.917 to 0.500 in 1940.

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/Geo1-1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/Geo2-1.jpg)
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Figleaf on March 24, 2008, 06:31:24 PM
Bombay mint. This design is superb. The coin has obviously seen heavy circulation, yet all details (except the eyebrow) are there.

Peter
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Rangnath on March 25, 2008, 06:01:23 PM
The following is from Oesho:

Adain pointed out, with the above subject, the rarity of the 1939 issue. I
have attached an image of the 1939 rupee of George VI, Bombay mint from my
collection, which could be added to that page.

Rupees of the British Indian series are often found with countermarks
attributed to localities in the Middle East and East Africa. Those are
mostly applied on coins of Queen Victoria and earlier issues. On British
Indian coins of the post Victoria era countermarks are very seldom found.
Attached you find two countermarked rupees of George VI.
A) Rupee George VI, 1941 Bombay mint, c/m A.G.A.H./1943 (Provisional
Government Azad Hind / 1943). Azad Hind (Free India) was a movement founded
by Subhas Chandra Bose. The c/m was first published in the Numismatic Digest
vol. V - part I (1981). More recent an example of it is published in the
book Indian Tokens: Popular Religious & Secular Art from Ancient period to
the present day, by Michael Mitchiner (London 1998)

B) Rupee George VI, 1942 Bombay mint, c/m RAM in Hindi. RAM probably refers
to Rama, the hero from the Ramayana. Rama represents an ideal man, as
conceived by the Hindu mind. In the story of Ramayana, Rama's personality
depicts him as the perfect son, devoted brother, true husband, trusted
friend, ideal king, and a noble adversary. One can only guess why this
countermark has been applied on the effigy of George VI or would he also
posses the same virtues as RAM.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Rangnath on March 25, 2008, 06:10:31 PM
The counter stamped coins are quite interesting and leads me to ask the following:
1. Were they done "leagally"?  Isn't it against the rules of most counties (and in this case, colony) to alter official coinage?
2. Was the Chandra Bose counterstamp a piece of underground protest and political propaganda?
3.  Could the "Ram" counterstamp have been made to render the coin "fit" as a temple token?
richie
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Oesho on March 25, 2008, 08:33:21 PM
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzi_Hukumate_Azad_Hind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzi_Hukumate_Azad_Hind)
Azad Hind was a government in exile and tried to set a up a new administration. Postal stamps were printed, but presumably not issued. The counter-stamping of the British Indian rupees, was not only an economic move but also propaganda. However not many of these coins have survived and less than half a dozen are only known.
When and where the countermark RAM has been applied, is absolutely not known. It can be done by anyone and at anytime. Political propaganda, religious memento, everything is possible. Only thing I can say that, as I haven't seen any other specimen so far, the use of this countermark must have been very limited.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Figleaf on March 25, 2008, 10:50:55 PM
Here goes a few more coins on my want list. I presume these are now impossible to find, though. I have a comparable set of countermarks from Ireland (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1461.0.html) that I'll show on the forum. In their case, it was Irish policy to withdraw "damaged" coins. Therefore, countermarking was not just propaganda, but also economic warfare. This may also have motivated the Indian countermarkers.

Peter
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Rangnath on March 25, 2008, 11:30:53 PM
I have such limited experience with countermarking. I'd love to see the Irish coins!
richie
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Md. Shariful Islam on November 21, 2011, 08:01:52 PM
And today I saw two one rupee of post 1940 with most likely cancellation mark. But I cannot figure out the cause of those  cancellation. The coins are cissled accross twice (like a cross).

Islam
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Abhay on November 22, 2011, 12:26:55 AM
See:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzi_Hukumate_Azad_Hind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arzi_Hukumate_Azad_Hind)
Azad Hind was a government in exile and tried to set a up a new administration. Postal stamps were printed, but presumably not issued. The counter-stamping of the British Indian rupees, was not only an economic move but also propaganda. However not many of these coins have survived and less than half a dozen are only known.

I am indeed lucky to have one of this coin. Just see this thread for the image:

(http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8758.0;attach=11661;image)
http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,8758.0.html

Abhay
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: brokencompass on November 22, 2011, 02:39:22 AM
Counter-marking for propaganda is very interesting! Whenever I hear counter-marked coinage, the following article comes to my mind.

http://www.cointalk.com/t52528/
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 12:34:45 PM
I came across a coin with King George V for the year  1939, is this a fake?

http://www.ebay.in/itm/One-rupee-India-1939-PURE-SILVER-COIN-91-7-/161858977861?hash=item25af8c0045:g:d0YAAOSwuTxV9xJl

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjgwWDI4NA==/z/d0YAAOSwuTxV9xJl/$_12.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjczWDI1OQ==/z/MzEAAOSwLqFV9xJl/$_12.JPG)
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Abhay on October 21, 2015, 01:16:37 PM
Yes. It is 1000% fake. In 1939, George VI was the Ruler. So in no case, in 1939 George V coins can be there.

And why only George V? On ebay you can even find Victoria empress 1939 Coins (http://www.ebay.in/itm/BRITISH-INDIA-VICTORIA-EMPRESS-1939-ONE-RUPEE-SILVER-COATED-TOKEN-/161834071304?hash=item25ae0ff508:g:faoAAOSwjVVVm8II).

And for your information, a genuine 1939 Rupee coin will not cost less that 2-3 Lac rupees today.

Abhay
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Oesho on October 21, 2015, 01:19:01 PM
What fun  :D
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 01:22:47 PM
Yes. It is 1000% fake. In 1939, George VI was the Ruler. So in no case, in 1939 George V coins can be there.

And why only George V? On ebay you can even find Victoria empress 1939 Coins (http://www.ebay.in/itm/BRITISH-INDIA-VICTORIA-EMPRESS-1939-ONE-RUPEE-SILVER-COATED-TOKEN-/161834071304?hash=item25ae0ff508:g:faoAAOSwjVVVm8II).

And for your information, a genuine 1939 Rupee coin will not cost less that 2-3 Lac rupees today.

Abhay

Thanks Abhay, i could find this 1939 silver coin for 14,999/- and seems to be original.
could you please confirm if this is fake?
http://www.ebay.in/itm/India-1939-ONE-RUPEE-SILVER-COIN-KING-GEORGE-VI-SECURITY-EDGE-VARIETY-/111791293370?hash=item1a0747c3ba:g:n9EAAOSw9r1WBqve
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Oesho on October 21, 2015, 02:05:37 PM
Srinath, Absolutely FAKE!!!! No doubt.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: @josephjk on October 21, 2015, 02:07:15 PM
Yes it's fake... tooled 1938 rupee... look carefully at the second '9' in the date and the '3'...they are different...here's the side by side comparison
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 02:11:18 PM
Thanks josephjk  :)

Normally what would be the cost of George vi silver coins (1940 to 1945)
I see the prices in ebay around 450 to 500
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Oesho on October 21, 2015, 02:18:14 PM
There exist no good silver coins of George VI from 1940 to 1945, they are all 500/1000 fineness or Quaternary standard.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: @josephjk on October 21, 2015, 02:18:43 PM
One of the follies of discussing prices on a forum like this is that prices change with time. These posts will be read by many people after several years and prices will be irrelevant. I would advice you to do your own research (ebay, auction houses etc.) and come to your own conclusions.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 02:19:56 PM
There exist no good silver coins of George VI from 1940 to 1945, they are all 500/1000 fineness or Quaternary standard.

Thanks Oesho
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 02:21:57 PM
One of the follies of discussing prices on a forum like this is that prices change with time. These posts will be read by many people after several years and prices will be irrelevant. I would advice you to do your own research (ebay, auction houses etc.) and come to your own conclusions.

Thats fine josephjk, the prices we discuss here today might change with time but as of today the price of a coin is x and may be in 2025 we can see the price difference with this reference.
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: @josephjk on October 21, 2015, 02:27:06 PM
Thats fine josephjk, the prices we discuss here today might change with time but as of today the price of a coin is x and may be in 2025 we can see the price difference with this reference.

Prices for Indian coins vary widely within the same grade.... then there are wide variations in price between grades. You may have to pick a grade you want in your collection and then do your due diligence. Hope you find your coins at a good price Srinath
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: srinath on October 21, 2015, 02:29:20 PM
Prices for Indian coins vary widely within the same grade.... then there are wide variations in price between grades. You may have to pick a grade you want in your collection and then do your due diligence. Hope you find your coins at a good price Srinath

Thanks josephjk  :)
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Abhay on October 21, 2015, 03:14:58 PM
Dear Srinath,

For more details on the Genuineness of 1939 Rupee, see this topic, where 1939 rupee is discussed in details:

http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,13212.0.html

Abhay
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: Figleaf on October 21, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
Thats fine josephjk, the prices we discuss here today might change with time but as of today the price of a coin is x and may be in 2025 we can see the price difference with this reference.

Apart from grade differences, there is another lethal spoiler: the market is not deep enough for uniform price formation. That means that in the same building at the same time, two dealers may offer the same coin in the same grade but one may cost twice as much as the other and both may sell on the same day.

The question is never "what was it worth to someone else in the past?", but always "what is worth to you right now?" If the answer to that question depends on old transaction prices, you are almost guaranteed to be wrong - look up framing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_effect_(psychology)). Actually, making up your own mind is far more fun than making price statistics.

Peter
Title: Re: George VI, 1 Rupee, 1940 (Bombay mint)
Post by: unnut on October 25, 2015, 04:38:27 AM
Mr. Ranganath,
I would request you to review your 1939 Rupee carefully( and if possible  get it slabbed). I own a PCGS slabbed 1939 rupee, and I can see a variation in the digit "3" of your rupee( see the attached picture of reverse of my coin). Also the strike of your rupee seems to be just a little soft, which increases the doubt just a little bit.

About the counter marked coins of Azad Hind Fauz, supposedly counter marked with PGAH, most of the coins available in the market are considered spurious issues. There is no way to check the genuineness of these coins, so one should not pay a lot of premium for these coins.

The following is from Oesho:

Adain pointed out, with the above subject, the rarity of the 1939 issue. I
have attached an image of the 1939 rupee of George VI, Bombay mint from my
collection, which could be added to that page.

Rupees of the British Indian series are often found with countermarks
attributed to localities in the Middle East and East Africa. Those are
mostly applied on coins of Queen Victoria and earlier issues. On British
Indian coins of the post Victoria era countermarks are very seldom found.
Attached you find two countermarked rupees of George VI.
A) Rupee George VI, 1941 Bombay mint, c/m A.G.A.H./1943 (Provisional
Government Azad Hind / 1943). Azad Hind (Free India) was a movement founded
by Subhas Chandra Bose. The c/m was first published in the Numismatic Digest
vol. V - part I (1981). More recent an example of it is published in the
book Indian Tokens: Popular Religious & Secular Art from Ancient period to
the present day, by Michael Mitchiner (London 1998)

B) Rupee George VI, 1942 Bombay mint, c/m RAM in Hindi. RAM probably refers
to Rama, the hero from the Ramayana. Rama represents an ideal man, as
conceived by the Hindu mind. In the story of Ramayana, Rama's personality
depicts him as the perfect son, devoted brother, true husband, trusted
friend, ideal king, and a noble adversary. One can only guess why this
countermark has been applied on the effigy of George VI or would he also
posses the same virtues as RAM.