Coins like these give honest forgers a bad name >:(
http://cgi.ebay.in/UNKNOWN-RARE-EAST-INDIAN-CO-1616-AD-HALF-ANNA-L-K-NOW_W0QQitemZ160206913458QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.in/RARE-UNKNOW-EAST-INDIAN-CO-1616AD-HALF-ANNA-L-K-NOW-NR_W0QQitemZ160206913394QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.in/UNKNOWN-RARE-EAST-INDIAN-CO-1818-HALF-ANNA-L-K-NOW_W0QQitemZ160206913505QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
What can I say. They're beautiful! Which would I rather have, the three of these "coins" or an American Presidential dollar. I think I'd go with the coins. :)
I believe that Temple Tokens are still in use in India. Do you think that is what these are?
richie
They look like modern tourist souvenirs to me. Why do sellers believe that if they don't know what it is, they can know that it's rare?
Peter
I see that all the time and it drives me crazy!
"I have collected coins for 30 years and have never seen this token" MEGA RARE!!!
I would like to choke them a bit, grrrrr
Dale
Quote from: Figleaf on February 09, 2008, 10:15:57 PM
Why do sellers believe that if they don't know what it is, they can know that it's rare?
Peter
I agree that there are unscrupulous dealers. From our standpoint, placing these three as "rare ancient Indian coppers" or "400 year old Hindu Treasures" or some such rot seems like a blatant attempt to rip off, deceive, and con. On the other hand, some of these "dealers" are not coin dealers at all and don't even pretend to be. From the look of their merchandise, what they sell is a mixed bag: posters, old letters, chess sets and fans. They buy from others and mark on Ebay what they're told the items are. Frankly, there are NOT a lot of numismatic experts selling coins on Ebay.
I've been communicating with one Indian dealer. He knows something about the coins that he sells, but not as much as I do and I don't know as much you as you two and none of us knows as much as Oesho. I bought the following from him: Moghul Dam of Emperor Alamgir II: 1754 to 1759 AD, Moghul Akbar 1/2 Dam: km 23.5, 1585 AD and a Mahmudi in the name of Akbar the Great: 1618 to 1638. They were advertised as "ancient Indian coins". I bought them for about $5 a piece and I got a terrific deal. I stayed away from the Maratha Confederacy Paisa that he also labeled "ancient Indian coin" and was selling for $10. I figured the value of that coin to be about $2.50. He wasn't trying to deceive me. He just did not know what it was that he had. He was depending on the information he received from his dealer who also didn't know what he had.
In the case of these three fantasy coins, tourist medallions or dirt cheap temple tokens, I suspect the worst from the Ebay vendor. But there is a chance, isn't there, that he/she did not know what they were. Any way, today I am feeling generous.
richie
Quote from: Rangnath on February 10, 2008, 12:19:35 AM
In the case of these three fantasy coins, tourist medallions or dirt cheap temple tokens, I suspect the worst from the Ebay vendor. But there is a chance, isn't there, that he/she did not know what they were.
What bothers me is that these coins come from a reputed seller who only deals in coins. I believe coin dealers should guide new collectors (who are most likely to fall for such coins) rather than than looking for easy victims to sell 'beauties' like these. How would newbies feel when they discover that they have been duped? Isn't it likely to put them off the hobby? Does this really help coin dealers in the long run?
If we can identify the pieces, it would be possible to lodge a complaint with eBay. I hope Oesho can help.
Peter
These medalic tokens are fantasy pieces. The appeared on the market sometime during the late 1980’s. They have a large variety of religious motifs on the obverse. On the reverse one often find a reference to the East India Company, a denomination and sometimes a date too.
The earliest pieces are of quite good workmanship, often with a milled edge, with all kind of religious motifs, but they became more and more crude. Some mention a place name Ratlam. Perhaps they were (and probably still are) manufactured there.
The majority of the pieces, which I have seen, bear mostly a ‘date’ 1818, but it seems they have gone back in time by adding a ‘date’ 1616. A ‘date’ 1839 is also popular on these pieces.
The monkey with the scales and the two cats represent a popular children’s story. Two cats quarrelled about food. So the monkey would try to equally divide it, but every time the scale got out of balance, the monkey tried to get it in balance by eating the food from the heavier side. This went on and on, till nothing was left. The morality of the story you can fill-in yourself.
These pieces can in general be regarded as religious motivated tokens. Their references to the East India Company is purely fantasy, as are the dates on them.
But for the price of approximately $ 2.00 it makes an interesting collecting as you may find almost the whole Indian pantheon or popular folk themes on them.
They are a continuation of a long standing Indian tradition of all kind of religious tokens.
Gosh! I got the story for free and didn't even have to buy bogus coin! ;D
The image of the monkey dispensing justice (sort of like a Lawyer?) brought a smile to my face. Thanks Overlord, for drawing attention to the tokens!
richie
The current bids on these are INR 450, 400, and 350, respectively :o
Oesho, thanks for the info on these. The second token depicts the legend of Shrawan Kumar, which is linked to the Indian epic Ramayana. As the legend goes, Shrawan Kumar was taking his blind parents on a pilgrimage to the seven holy places by carrying them on his shoulders (as depicted on the token). On the way, he stopped near a river to get water for his parents. King Dashrath (father of Lord Rama), who was out on a hunt in the forest near the river heard the sound of water filling the vessel and, thinking that it was a deer drinking water, shot an arrow in the direction on the sound. Opon discovering that he had killed Shrawan Kumar by accident, the king was full of remorse. When he informed his parents of his sad demise, they too died of sorrow, cursing the king that he too would die in the memory of son (and that happens in Ramayana). 'Shrawan Kumar' is still used as a metaphor for 'dutiful son' in Hindi. Sad story, isn't it :'(
Perhaps due to this discussion the bids have gone up. It nevertheless shows the interesting topics depicted on these tokens.
The listings closed at INR 600, 650, and 400, respectively. These can be purchased from street vendeors outside almost all major temples in India for INR 10 to 15 each.
Now he tells me! ::)
Quote from: Rangnath on February 16, 2008, 06:33:52 AM
Now he tells me! ::)
Richie, you were not the one bidding on these, were you? ;D
Yes sir, Mr Richie, these are very ancient coins. I dug them up myself. That will be INR 15 each plus INR 500 postage and packing and INR 515 tax :D
Richie wouldn't fall for them, Overlord, but I am sure he wouldn't discard them either (neither would I) (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,621.0.html)
Peter
The seller has more 'gems' for offer. This time he even has the extremely rare 1717 variety! >:D
http://cgi.ebay.in/RARE-1616-AD-UNITED-EAST-INDIA-CO-HALF-ANNA-L-K-NOW_W0QQitemZ370023792852QQihZ024QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.in/RARE-UNITED-EAST-INDIAN-CO-1717-AD-HALF-ANNA-L-K-NOW_W0QQitemZ160209380520QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.in/RARE-1835-AD-EAST-INDIA-CO-HANUMAAN-TEMPLE-TOKEN-L-K_W0QQitemZ160209380466QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.in/RARE-UNITED-EAST-INDIAN-CO-1835-AD-TEMPLE-TOKEN-L-K_W0QQitemZ160209380562QQihZ006QQcategoryZ45138QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Get yourself an account on eBay India and complain, Overlord. You have a great id of what they are and what they're really worth. The use of "rare" and "coin" is misleading, even by eBay's lax standards.
Peter
Quote from: Figleaf on February 16, 2008, 03:30:54 PM
Get yourself an account on eBay India and complain, Overlord. You have a great id of what they are and what they're really worth. The use of "rare" and "coin" is misleading, even by eBay's lax standards.
Peter
Peter, sending a message to the bidders with a link to this thread seems a better solution to me. (I should have done that earlier, but I think the earlier listings were private, i.e., the IDs of the bidders were not disclosed.) With all due respect, I don't think eBay will do ANYTHING except sending me a really polite e-mail saying they will investigate the matter. Going by my experience with these things on other forums, I'll be a grand old man by the time their investigation ends!
Oops, won't work. Even these are private listings! I think I'll just contact eBay and see what happens.
Yes sir, Mr Richie, these are very ancient coins. I dug them up myself. That will be INR 15 each plus INR 500 postage and packing and INR 515 tax
Only INR 15 EACH!!!!!! plus some small insignificant fees? WOW!!!!
Enjoy the world of coins. See you in two weeks or if I find an internet cafe in the Mayan Jungle,
Richie
Three UNC gems for INR 8,000,000 only :o
http://cgi.ebay.in/speak-true-weigh-true_W0QQitemZ250220958651QQihZ015QQcategoryZ118379QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The shipping is free ;D
Ah, Overlord.. how wonderful to live in a fantasy and dwell in such bliss!
If I could only believe,
if I could only put my trust in the dealer,
if I had massive amounts of wealth and INR 8,000,000 meant but a few cents,
I would buy those coins,
and enjoy them.
No doubt I would make the dealer happy too!
richie
Quote from: Rangnath on March 01, 2008, 06:36:01 AM
if I had massive amounts of wealth and INR 8,000,000 meant but a few cents,
I would buy those coins,
and enjoy them.
No doubt I would make the dealer happy too!
richie
Richie, you are so generous that I truly wish you had all the money in the world..........
.............and I were a coin dealer ;D
Hey that is only AUD212,000.00......I will just check my bank account.....
Hmmmmmm.....no good....AUD211,990.00 short......maybe next time
;D
Well, gentlemen.
I've just added Overlord and Humpybong to my short list of major recepients when I become a billionaire.
And that's EUROS, not dollars. I don't want to take unnecessary chances.
richie
Harappan gems, anyone? (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical.gif)
http://cgi.ebay.in/ANCIENT-COIN-OF-INDIA-FOUND-IN-THE-HARRAPPAN-REGION_W0QQitemZ320267002778QQihZ011QQcategoryZ4737QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Why do you laugh Overlord?
The coin might well have been found within the Harappan region! And, like most Roman coins, it is round and made of metal. Certainly, if you were to walk in the Harappan region (Lahore, Pakistan say) and look for coins on the street, it would be a rare day indeed that you would find this sultanate coin! And if the dealer says that according to him they are very less in this whole world, I believe him.
For example, I have the habit of picking up coins that I find on the streets of Portland, Oregon, USA. Once I found a Chuckie Cheese Token, once a 1 pesso from Mexico and once a Euro. Today I found four 10 cent coins from the USA. But NEVER have I found a coin from the Harappan region! THAT would be a rare day indeed.
Perhaps this dealer is an Enchanter or a warlock or a magician. Why should I doubt him when he says
U WILL BE THE LUCKIEST PERSON IF U WILL BE THE WINNER BIDDER.
So, when the price goes down to a more reasonable amount of say Rs 200000, I'm in. I wouldn't think of cheating him in order to gain his blessings. And to become the luckiest man in the world, or even in the Harappan region, just by buying that coin, WOW.
So don't just laugh Overlord, or you'll never be a winner bidder.
richie
This one actually managed to sell (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/dizzy1150-1.gif)
I wonder if I could pass off my broken door handle as a Taxila bent bar (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/evil-smileys-emoticons106-1.gif)
Overlord, do you have proof of purchase for the door handle? You wouldn't mind posting it would you? Mine was stolen and I've been trying to recover it; I suspect it was sold on ebay due to its close resemblance to a Taxilla bent bar.
richie
Richie, I am sorry to hear about your loss. If you could send me the matching door handle you posted here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,1721.0.html), I would be happy to compare it closely to the one I have and send both of them back to you should it happen to be yours (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/evil-smileys-emoticons116.gif)
Hmmm, they do make attractive door handles, don't they?
richie
This one takes the cake (http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical-1.gif)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical-1.gif)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical-1.gif)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical-1.gif)(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/hysterical-1.gif)
http://cgi.ebay.in/QUEEN-VICTORIA-COIN-OF-BRITISH-INDIA-DATED-1874_W0QQitemZ250276562530QQihZ015QQcategoryZ118379QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I laughed so hard the neighbours came to ask if I was all right.
Peter
Did you find the Easter egg hidden in the seller's 'other items'. Napoleon Bonaparte rises from the dead to issue 'one last coin'. ;D
;D
http://cgi.ebay.in/NAI-KASU-DOG-COIN_W0QQitemZ220285530680QQihZ012QQcategoryZ16176QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
How did I know I'd find the word "rare" on the other end of that link? ::)
I want you to know we have similar medals here, tied in the neck of doggies to show that doggy tax was paid or that doggy got an ouch in the rear end from the vet to protect it from evil diseases. ;)
Peter
I suppose the 1200 RS for this rare copper isn't really too dear if it is accompanied with inoculations for distemper, rabies, canine kennel cough and heart worm control plus certification that there is absolutely NO hip dysplasia in the family. Undoubtably this is a coin dealer who cares.
richie
Here's one more, this time showing Lord Ganesha..Current bid is INR 502 (~10 USD), 13 bids :o
http://cgi.ebay.in/1717-GOD-GANPATI-HALF-ANNA-COIN-EAST-INDIA-COMPANY-/110639037106?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item19c299bab2#ht_3041wt_932 (http://cgi.ebay.in/1717-GOD-GANPATI-HALF-ANNA-COIN-EAST-INDIA-COMPANY-/110639037106?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item19c299bab2#ht_3041wt_932)
Aditya
I did hear that the Mumbai Indians were upset over the recent IPL 4 auctions, but I hadn't imagined they would take it out on coin collectors. :D
I have observed some fakes of rare Mughal coins recently (e.g., this one (http://cgi.ebay.in/MUGHAL-JAHANGIR-ZODIAC-ISSUE-TAURUS-AH-1028-Dont-Miss-/130478523234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item1e61204362)), all sold for INR 2500+.
Quote from: Bimat on January 29, 2011, 11:02:41 AM
Here's one more, this time showing Lord Ganesha..Current bid is INR 502 (~10 USD), 13 bids ........
Aditya
A machine struck copper 1717. Should have rung alarm bells........or is it AH 1717??????????
Amit
As Marlène Dietrich sang: "when will they ever learn". Or maybe an American expression says it better: "There's a sucker born every minute...and two to take 'em!" (there are plenty of idiots around and two con men for each to take advantage of them.)
When was the last time I have taken advantage of someone? I was out of action for six weeks. The organisation I worked for continued to pay my salary. Then, I got a check from from social security for salary over the same period. I called to say there'd been a mistake. They told me they don't make mistakes. I kept the money for almost a year before they claimed it. Paid it back promptly, but kept the interest it had earned.
Peter
Quote from: Bimat on January 29, 2011, 11:02:41 AM
Here's one more, this time showing Lord Ganesha..Current bid is INR 502 (~10 USD), 13 bids :o
[Aditya
These coins are easily available for Rs. 50-60 per peice, in Daryagunj Sunday Market. So don't get fooled by these RARE coins. They are all modern fakes.
See this post (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,5142.0.html) also.
I will post some more images of these coins tomorrow.
Abhay
Mostly such tokens /medals are to attract tourists and amateur collectors .
Places viz temples , palaces , Forts , Archeological places etc where souvenir are being sold are favorite places of such seller to dupe who so ever become their victim 8)
Cheers ;D
Oesho's explanation is buried deep in this thread. I am quoting it below:
Quote from: Oesho on February 10, 2008, 10:26:29 PM
These medalic tokens are fantasy pieces. The appeared on the market sometime during the late 1980's. They have a large variety of religious motifs on the obverse. On the reverse one often find a reference to the East India Company, a denomination and sometimes a date too.
The earliest pieces are of quite good workmanship, often with a milled edge, with all kind of religious motifs, but they became more and more crude. Some mention a place name Ratlam. Perhaps they were (and probably still are) manufactured there.
The majority of the pieces, which I have seen, bear mostly a 'date' 1818, but it seems they have gone back in time by adding a 'date' 1616. A 'date' 1839 is also popular on these pieces.
The monkey with the scales and the two cats represent a popular children's story. Two cats quarrelled about food. So the monkey would try to equally divide it, but every time the scale got out of balance, the monkey tried to get it in balance by eating the food from the heavier side. This went on and on, till nothing was left. The morality of the story you can fill-in yourself.
These pieces can in general be regarded as religious motivated tokens. Their references to the East India Company is purely fantasy, as are the dates on them.
But for the price of approximately $ 2.00 it makes an interesting collecting as you may find almost the whole Indian pantheon or popular folk themes on them.
They are a continuation of a long standing Indian tradition of all kind of religious tokens.
On the same topic there is a very very hot discussion on SACG. From what Mr Sastri J C Phillips says, it appears that there have been a spurt in the number of such tokens produced recently aimed to fool the uninitiated......
Amit
These Bogus Anna coins are available in many different varieties, size and denominations.
Some of the varieties are shown here.
Abhay
Quote from: Overlord on January 29, 2011, 11:32:14 AM
I have observed some fakes of rare Mughal coins recently (e.g., this one (http://cgi.ebay.in/MUGHAL-JAHANGIR-ZODIAC-ISSUE-TAURUS-AH-1028-Dont-Miss-/130478523234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item1e61204362)), all sold for INR 2500+.
The Zodiac Rupee I had cited above has touched nearly INR 8000. Perhaps I was wrong and it is indeed an original strike. ???
QuoteThe Zodiac Rupee I had cited above has touched nearly INR 8000. Perhaps I was wrong and it is indeed an original strike.
The price has raised even further. It's curious to see that both the obverses are different (two different coins are depicted). The reverse inscription is definitely of a fake coin.
Some zodiac coins are extremely tricky. See this example on ZENO (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=56347). It becomes almost impossible to differenciate between authentic (contemporary issues of Jehangir) or the many later copies.
However the reverse of the coin shown on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.in/MUGHAL-JAHANGIR-ZODIAC-ISSUE-TAURUS-AH-1028-Dont-Miss-/130478523234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item1e61204362) is of quite recent manufactury.
The fake zodiac coin finally fetched INR 10,199! :o :o :o (shipping extra ;D) Poor buyer..
Aditya
Quote from: Bimat on January 31, 2011, 03:55:12 PM
The fake zodiac coin finally fetched INR 10,199! :o :o :o (shipping extra ;D) Poor buyer..
Aditya
All onion traders ;D become ebay sellers :o
This one is for Shree Rangnath. :D :D
http://cgi.ebay.in/1818-SHREE-RANGNATH-HALF-ANNA-TOKEN-EAST-INDIA-COMPANY-/110670063636?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item19c4732814#ht_4640wt_932 (http://cgi.ebay.in/1818-SHREE-RANGNATH-HALF-ANNA-TOKEN-EAST-INDIA-COMPANY-/110670063636?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item19c4732814#ht_4640wt_932)
Aditya
Quote from: Bimat on April 05, 2011, 04:12:29 PM
This one is for Shree Rangnath. :D :D
ebay Seller is Mumbai- Indians :o , it's suspicious....................................... ::)
Cheers ;D
Quote from: aan09 on January 31, 2011, 04:24:53 PM
All onion traders ;D become ebay sellers :o
Hhahahhaha ..... That's a nice way to mock up about ebay sellers, but all sellers are the same there?
Saved Shree Rangnath for Rangnath :)
Peter
And now there's one bid for it. I hope the bidder is not Richie! :D :D ;) :D
Aditya
(http://www.stampboards.com/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif) I think need to add this token in collection to honor "Shree Rangnath" (http://www.stampboards.com/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
Cheers ;D
By the way I've just reported the so called coin to e-bay India. Let's see if they take any action against the seller...
Aditya
Please check this also..
http://cgi.ebay.in/ONE-Anna-Shirdi-Sai-Baba-1818-EAST-INDIA-COMPANY-rare-/280672004301?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item41595ae8cd
Coin is dated 1818. But Shri Sai Baba was born in 1837
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sai_Baba_of_Shirdi
Surely a forged coin??
Vivek
Quote
Surely a forged coin??
Not even coin, just a privately made religious token. East India Company never issued such coins showing portraits of Gods or other famous personalities..
Aditya
Given that appears we have had a victory in getting a high price coin item removed perhaps it is time to work through the lower values and use the same method. However I would like to set a limit of a minimum $250 on each transaction at this time. Given the short time many auctions have and the long delays in getting ebay to react this is an interim solution.