World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indonesia => Topic started by: Overlord on February 07, 2008, 04:46:21 PM

Title: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on February 07, 2008, 04:46:21 PM
The only VOC Duit in my collection...

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/VOC1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/VOC2.jpg)

Any info on the mint?
Title: Re: Dutch East India Company (VOC): Copper Duit
Post by: Oesho on February 07, 2008, 05:52:19 PM
This is a doit of the Utrecht type, with the date 1790 and star above the VOC monogram.
You may be surprised, but this coin was not struck in 1790, but from 1840 to 1843 at both Sourabaya and Batavia. The dies were imported from the Netherlands.
With the closing of the Mints at Surabaya and Batavia in 1843 the production of coins on Java came to an end.
Title: Re: Dutch East India Company (VOC): Copper Duit
Post by: Overlord on February 08, 2008, 06:02:07 PM
This is a doit of the Utrecht type, with the date 1790 and star above the VOC monogram.
You may be surprised, but this coin was struck in 1790, but from 1840 to 1843 at both Sourabaya and Batavia. The dies were imported from the Netherlands.
With the closing of the Mints at Surabaya and Batavia in 1843 the production of coins on Java came to an end.
Thanks Oesho!
I don't quite follow the second part. Did you mean the coin was not struck in 1790, but between 1840 and 1843 with the frozen date "1790".
Title: Re: Dutch East India Company (VOC): Copper Duit
Post by: Oesho on February 08, 2008, 11:20:35 PM
Sorry I forgot "not"; it was not struck in 1790. I will correct in the text.
Title: Re: Dutch East India Company (VOC): Copper Duit
Post by: Figleaf on February 09, 2008, 06:47:27 PM
One of the things retained from the French revolution was the decimal system. It was introduced in the Dutch East Indies by royal decree of 8th november 1815. However, this was wishful thinking, as Raffles blithely disobeyed orders and kept the area occupied. As he was finally kicked out of his last hold-out, Bencoolen, in 1824, the decision to decimalize the islands was reiterated by royal decree of 18th February 1826. However, there was only a half-hearted attempt to provide decimal silver and the copper coins continued to be denominated in terms of the non-decimal stuiver and duit.

As before the Napoleonic wars, there was a great scarcity of copper coins. Therefore copper duits were re-struck, first at the Utrecht Mint (KM 111.2), later in Java (KM111.3). In order to avoid legal problems, they were similar to the VOC duits (the VOC had been declared insolvent and was taken over by the Dutch state) and dated with the frozen year 1790.

New coppers were inscribed 5 - 1/16 - G, presumably meaning that there were 80 duits to the Dutch silver gulden. The locals happily ignored this, as there was little or no silver in circulation. From 1833, decimal 1 and 2 cent pieces were introduced and ... used as 1 and 2 duit pieces. Meanwhile, the scarcity of copper continued, mainly because the Dutch silver coins were slightly undervalued against copper. Therefore, local mints were opened again to strike Utrecht duits (KM 111.4). Your coin is one of those.

The colonial monetary system was completely reformed by law of 1st May 1854. Old copper and paper money was withdrawn, new, lighter and much better struck coins introduced alongside regular Dutch coin. It had taken 51 years from the surrender at Waterloo too introduce the decimal system in the Netherlands East Indies. The reformed system was basically in effect (with some marginal tinkering) until the second world war and the end of the colonial era.

Peter
Title: Re: Dutch East India Company (VOC): Copper Duit
Post by: Overlord on February 16, 2008, 06:12:17 AM
Thanks for the info, Peter.
Title: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on March 14, 2008, 05:47:36 PM
I now have another...

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_3542.jpg)

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_3551.jpg)
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on March 14, 2008, 07:12:28 PM
This one has a much less colourful history. It was struck in 1746, at the Dordrecht mint (mintmark: 5-petalled rose). The VOC at this time was almost a state within a state. It is credited with inventing equity shares (they look more like bonds to me), they could negotiate on equal terms with sovereign powers, maintain their own army and navy and issue their own money (provided that it was minted in Dutch mints and could be easiliy distingished from regular Dutch coins.

Life on board VOC ships was relatively good. The ships sailed in well armed convoys and there were replenishing points all along the route to the Indies, so the hands could have fresh water and vegetables. Payment was low and due only on arrival or on return in the Netherlands. Smuggling by officers to increase income was tolerated because it kept wages low. Silver coins and bars were very popular articles for smuggling as the relative price of silver was higher in Asia than in Europe. Smuggled silver of all officers would be kept in the captain's quarters, in the captain's case. This case was supposed to contain the captain's private affairs and therefore considered the very last place that could be inspected.

Though smuggling by crew was not tolerated, it did happen. On arrival, copper VOC coins would be contraband. Crew with a few loose coppers left threw them into the water in the port of Amsterdam. Maybe young boys dived after them. When the first Amsterdam underground line was constructed (the terminal is under the Central Station, once the waterfront of the port), the price of VOC coppers suddenly collapsed ;). Even today, detectorists will find VOC coppers around the port of Amsterdam, but also other reminders of the once mighty VOC. One of the most spectacular pieces I have seen was an identification medal for a member of the VOC's own fire brigade.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Rangnath on March 14, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
This one has a much less colourful history. It was struck in 1746, at the Dordrecht mint (mintmark: 5-petalled rose). The VOC at this time was almost a state within a state. It is credited with inventing equity shares (they look more like bonds to me), they could negotiate on equal terms with sovereign powers, maintain their own army and navy and issue their own money (provided that it was minted in Dutch mints and could be easiliy distingished from regular Dutch coins.

 Maybe Cheney and Bush are using the same model for Haliburton!  >:D
richie
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on March 16, 2008, 04:50:31 PM
Peter, thanks a lot for the info. I learn something new almost every day at this forum.
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on May 11, 2008, 11:08:17 AM
Another duit, probably of the same type as above.

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_4554.jpg)

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_4557.jpg)
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on May 11, 2008, 11:09:00 AM
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_4548.jpg)

(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/IMG_4551.jpg)
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on May 11, 2008, 11:35:02 AM
The date is 1735, otherwise it is the same type. Duits were struck at other Dutch mints also. Look for different coat of arms.

Incidentally, the arms give you a good clue of the difference between Holland and the Netherlands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands_%28terminology%29). These are the Holland arms. Note the absence of the crown on the lion's head and sword as well as the blocks in the field. These arms were used by the counts of Holland.

A climbing lion was a very popular heraldic device in the north-west of the German empire, so the counts of Nassau put a semee of blocks in their arms. The crown and sword came later.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: a3v1 on May 11, 2008, 04:33:31 PM
This duit was struck at the Westfrisian Mint; in the 1730's located in Enkhuizen.
The mintmaster was Jan Knol and his privy mark is a knol (turnip).
Regards,
a3v1
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Rangnath on May 12, 2008, 06:02:06 PM
A3v1,
I am curious about the selection of the knol as a privy mark.  Do you know why?

In the 1950's through the 1970's in the US, the turnip had a bad reputation, at least in the Northeast of the nation.  One of the cheapest of vegtables, I think that it was considered a "Poor" man's food, suitable for slop, the food of pigs. The greens, even when the turnip was purchased, was generally discarded. 
For a classless society, we can be pretty snobish. But still, I don't think anyone in the USA but a hurmorist would think of using it as a symbol on a coin.
richie

 
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: a3v1 on May 12, 2008, 10:59:38 PM
@ Richie,
This particular mintmaster's name was Knol; so he took the vegetable representing his name as his privy mark.
Interesting detail: Jan Knol was in office 1715-1741. His early coins had a turnip with almost no offshoots. Throughout his office his privy mark showed an increasing quantity of greens.
Regards,
a3v1
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Rangnath on May 12, 2008, 11:59:30 PM
I see, it was Mr. Turnip Head symbolically spouting an increasing abundance of wealth for his family and liege lord!  ;D  I suppose if I had been a mintmaster, I would have done similarly.  But the added growth on the coins would have represented my increased propensity to cultivate ear and eyebrow hair.  :D

But all kidding aside, I guess having the name of Turnip was not considered a negative in the 18th century.  In college, I once had a roommate named Knoll; a German name I believe. Is Knol a common Dutch name?   
richie
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: a3v1 on May 13, 2008, 10:15:53 AM
Is Knol a common Dutch name? 
@ Richie,
Even today, Knol is a rather common Dutch name. The telephone guide of my area lists dozens of people by that name. The only negative use of the word knol in Dutch I know of is "Iemand knollen voor citroenen verkopen" (selling someone turnips as lemons)
Regards,
a3v1
 
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Rangnath on May 13, 2008, 04:58:14 PM
Thanks a turnip bushel!
I now have a new appreciation for the VOC duit.
richie
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on May 14, 2008, 11:19:16 PM
Read more on turnips and turnips on coins here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,787.0.html).

While turnips were cheap, common and disliked when I was young (admittedly a long time ago) you'll have a hard time finding them for human consumption today. They were commonly served cut in long bars, called "dead fingers". Great to enhance your appetite...

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Rangnath on May 15, 2008, 05:12:58 AM
Thanks Peter, I missed that thread of last September. I agree with Dale's pronouncement though; THAT is a turnip!
I'd better stop adding to the turnip discussion or the thread will be severed and my turnip recipes will end up in the basement!  :'(
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on May 24, 2008, 11:15:42 AM
Thanks for the info, Peter.
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on January 10, 2009, 10:10:04 AM
Would it be correct to refer to these Duits as "Indo-Dutch" coins?
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on January 10, 2009, 12:24:53 PM
I think people would understand the expression in context, but it is not correct.

VOC money struck in the Netherlands is generic and used for all of its colonies and trading stations in what is now Ghana, South Africa, India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Indonesia and Taiwan. KM lists the coins under Netherlands East Indies, but they were not used there only. Locally struck VOC coins were used locally only with the exception of cases where one trading post would strike coins especially for another and all these coins were presumably shipped to the other trading station.

In this country, they are referred to as VOC coins.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Overlord on January 10, 2009, 01:29:12 PM
Thanks Peter.
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Coinsforever on December 03, 2011, 10:30:26 AM
To all experts , may  I know which year VOC duits (coppers) are scrace .

Some how I started developing  interest in these coins and want to acquire few in my collection.

Estimated price range , recommendation for  reference books , study  material will be helpful.

Thanks in Advance.

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Oesho on December 03, 2011, 11:15:30 AM
The only book I could advice you is: C. Scholten: The Coins of the Dutch Overseas Territories, 1601-1948, Amsterdam 1953. It provide also the various varieties and scarcity of the different issues.
The original publication might be hard to obtain, but there are facsimile reprints which are less costly, and provides the same information. See bookfinder (http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?ac=sl&st=sl&ref=bf_s2_a1_t1_1&qi=P703oypk8Y5eXjLWLNm7KdIuZDo_0819602345_1:27:941&bq=author%3Dc%2520scholten%26title%3Dcoins%2520of%2520the%2520dutch%2520overseas%2520territories%25201601%2D1948) for this title.
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on December 03, 2011, 12:09:01 PM
Generally speaking the duit coins are not difficult to find. The half duit coins are a bit of a challenge, but should surface from time to time also. The listing in KM, available on Numismaster, is sufficient for a want list. If you want to dig deeper, Scholten is indeed still the standard reference. His scarcity scale is no longer correct, but a reasonable guide. He also lists coins in other metals, but his listing of plantation token is incomplete. A word of warning: Scholten is a numismatist, not an economist. Some of his remarks on pricing are off the mark.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Coinsforever on December 03, 2011, 01:10:29 PM
Thanks a lot Gentlemen for quick suggestions & recommendations !

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Afrasi on December 04, 2011, 05:13:28 PM
VOC money struck in the Netherlands is generic and used for all of its colonies and trading stations in what is now Ghana, South Africa, India, Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Indonesia and Taiwan.

Are you sure about Ghana? I always thought the West African possessions were in the hand of the West Indian Company.

Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on December 04, 2011, 06:11:26 PM
The Dutch arrived in the Gold Coast in the first half of the 16th century. The fortresses of Komenda and Kormantsi were built in 1548. The VOC was established in 1602, the WIC in 1623. Both had an interest in the Gold Coast, the VOC for supplying fresh food and water to ships on their way to Asia (the Cape colony had a similar function), the WIC for the slave trade. The VOC had a monopoly for Dutch trade on Asia, the WIC for the slave trade. It seems likely that the WIC started running things from or shortly after 1623.

VOC coinage started only in 1687, so you are quite right as far as coins are concerned. However, a gold bar with the VOC balemark was recovered from Ghana, so I presume the VOC was handling the trading posts in the Gold Coast area at least between 1602 and 1623, without issuing coins there.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: giladzuc on January 02, 2012, 03:47:29 AM
Are you sure about Ghana? I always thought the West African possessions were in the hand of the West Indian Company.


As for Sri  (Shri) Lanka , the DUITS where exacly the coins used in "HINDIA BELANDA", Netherlands Indies , 2 of the DUITS that listed in INDONESIA list were found in Sri Lnaka

http://giladzuckerman.webs.com/mercuguinness.html#INDONESIA (http://giladzuckerman.webs.com/mercuguinness.html#INDONESIA)

Other Dutch coins minted for Sri Lanka were differents from Netherlands Indies Duch coins , 2 of Duch Sri Lanka's coins are listed here :

http://giladzuckerman.webs.com/mercuguinness.html#LANKA (http://giladzuckerman.webs.com/mercuguinness.html#LANKA) "I STUIVE" (!) AND "2 S" ARE THE FACE VALUES , respectively.

As for GHANA it is an innovation for me.
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Figleaf on January 02, 2012, 12:11:38 PM
In principle, the VOC was supposed to have its coins struck in the provincial mints of the Republic. In practice, the VOC acquired minting rights locally. The locally struck coins are struck with local means and technology. That means that whereas a VOC duit struck in the Republic would be thin, a copper coin struck in South India or what is now Sri Lanka would be thick and heavy. Similarly, silver VOC coins struck in the Republic would have the specifications of other silver coins struck there, while locally struck silver would be struck according to local specifications, e.g. silver fanams, rupees or fishhook money. The only VOC inventions I can think of are the "bonk" types, including the 4-3/4 stuiver bonk. However, these are emergency coins.

Peter
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Coinsforever on January 05, 2012, 08:49:32 PM
However, these are emergency coins.



Does it means with frozen years ?

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: VOC duits
Post by: Oesho on January 05, 2012, 09:46:21 PM
Quote
Does it means with frozen years ?
No. Why would you conclude this?