World of Coins

Modern Asian coins, pseudo coins and trade tokens => Indian subcontinent: Mughal, Princely states and colonial (1526-1947) => Other European Influences => Topic started by: Rangnath on December 10, 2007, 06:32:10 PM

Title: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on December 10, 2007, 06:32:10 PM
I've enjoyed attempting to discover the identity of this copper or brass coin.  It is 1.2 grams and 10 mm across. 
On the obverse, we may have either a Shardula (a stylized tiger or tiger like beast) or stylized human or deity.  On the reverse, at times, under a play of light, I can become convinced that the coin depicts a conch.  I looked through Travancore coins and found nothing like the obverse.  The Conch though was used extensively. 
In Dutch Pondicherry, there were copper coins in which the obverse appears quite similar to my coin. But the reverse seems to be simpler. Could my coin have been struck twice on the reverse?  Did coins as small as this one ever receive such treatment?
I'll post some images of my coin and others.
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Rangnath on December 10, 2007, 06:43:43 PM
The following is an example of a Shardula.  There seem to be many more examples on silver than on copper. This one is a Venad Chera coin from 1500 to 1650.  I believe that Travancore and Venad Chera may be either the same or over lapping designations. 
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Rangnath on December 10, 2007, 06:48:06 PM
The following is a coin designated as the following:
Indo-Dutch (VOC)
Pondicherry
copper
10 mm in diameter
1.64 grams
Minted in Pondicherry in Dutch Occupation.
Catalogue ref/s 1706, PS-1718

The striking similarity is, of course, with the obverse of my coin.
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Rangnath on December 10, 2007, 06:49:37 PM
the reverse?  That seems quite different.
richie
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Figleaf on December 11, 2007, 08:35:47 AM
The examples you show have a dotted border, while your coin doesn't seem to have one. You find the dotted border on the larger coins of the VOC struck in Negapatnam, such as the duit, Scholten 1244 - KM 28, but not on the small cash (Scholten 1248) struck in Pondicherry. My guess is that the dots were omitted to gain space on the small flan. Your coin also has the size of the cash.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck ... well ... it just may be a duck!

obv: the Kali of Negapatnam
rev: Puduchheri in Tamil characters

Peter
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Rangnath on December 11, 2007, 06:11:55 PM
I think you're right Peter!  When I rotate the reverse, it appears much more like the example you gave of Scholten 1248.  I think my reading of it as a "conch" was due to the degraded surface. 
I think its a DUCK!!!!
richie
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Rangnath on December 12, 2007, 01:34:35 AM
Peter,
the weight of this coin bothers me a bit.  My old, hard to read, torn and abused catalog says something like 25.7 to 28.2 g for Km 28, a stuiver.  It lists km 25 as a 1/2 duit which weighs 1.6 to 1.8 g.  My coin weighs 1.2 g. 
the coin in the Fitzwilliam museum (I can no longer use the term without thinking of parentage  ::) )
is listed as an Indo-Dutch one cash coin.  What is you guess about the catalog number of my coin? Is my coin a 1/2 duit, 1 duit or neither of the two?
richie
Title: Re: Travancore or Pondicherry?
Post by: Figleaf on December 12, 2007, 01:50:33 AM
That weight is about right for a cash (a tiny coin). The (half and double) stuivers are of course much heavier and larger.

Peter
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: lusomosa on December 15, 2007, 12:02:11 PM
Here are some images of the coins of :
2 stuivers scho 1243
1 stuiver   "      1244
duit          "      1245
1/2 duit    "      1246
and image with several cash.

All from Negapatnam. The Type for the this cash is diferent from the Stuivers and Duits.
If there are cash coins with the same type as the others I dont know yet. I'll try to find out.

LP
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on December 15, 2007, 04:19:45 PM
LP, what a great collection of images! Thanks so much for posting them.
richie
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Figleaf on December 15, 2007, 05:51:49 PM
Agreed. These are museum quality pieces. Super pictures of exquisite coins! Made my day. The cash you are showing are Negapatnam cash (N or retrogade N mintmark), for Pondicherry cash, see Scholten 1248. You'll see the obverse resemblance.

Peter
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on December 15, 2007, 06:44:33 PM
Peter and LP,
would it help to split LP's images from the one I originally posted ? Would it make it easier to access in our archives?
LP, I'm sure I can look this up, but would you mind giving me the size of one of the coins you posted (the duit?). 
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Figleaf on December 15, 2007, 08:20:28 PM
You're the moderator, Rangnath. I don't see the harm of leaving them in one thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on December 15, 2007, 08:45:23 PM
One thread it is. Thanks to LP, it is thread of the finest silk.
richie
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: lusomosa on December 22, 2007, 09:56:21 AM
?'ve been away fore some days, I'll give you the answer shortly Richie,

LP
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: lusomosa on January 12, 2008, 08:18:26 PM
Greetings to all,
I've been away due to some health problems within the falimy. All is OK now.
The Stuiver is about 22 mm and the 2 Stuivers 25mm.

Happy 2008,

LP
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on January 12, 2008, 08:22:54 PM
I'm glad that things are going better for your family! 
I had forgotten how beautiful the Stuivers were!
Thanks for the information. 25 mm is substantial!
Richie
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Overlord on March 09, 2008, 11:11:02 AM
Some very nice coins in this thread  :o

Here are two from my collection...

Dutch Pondicherry
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/Cas1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/Cas2.jpg)


(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/CasA1.jpg)
(http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii203/amitvyas03/CasA2.jpg)

Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Rangnath on March 09, 2008, 02:58:54 PM
Nice and clear Overlord.
What (denomination) and when are they?
richie
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Overlord on March 09, 2008, 05:25:41 PM
Nice and clear Overlord.
What (denomination) and when are they?
richie
Richie, I'm not too sure about denomenation. Both are tiny coins (may be 1 cash?). These were most probably minted during the Dutch occupation of Pondicherry (between 1693 and 1697).
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Figleaf on March 09, 2008, 09:22:47 PM
The second coin you show is Scholten 1248b or 1248d. The lower picture should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. You see the lower part of "Pu" on the first line, followed by "Duchhe" between dots on the second line. The caracter "Ri" is off flan. The other side shows the Kali of Negapattanam with two large dots, here represented by what looks like an 8.

I think the first coin is Scholten 1248a. The Kali is somewhat less abstract and the original points at the shoulder are separated. If so, the characters are "Duchhe" and "Ri". The lower picture should also be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

Scholten calls these coins kasje (cash) and notes that while their official weight was 1.607 gram, the vary in weight from 1.00 to 1.67 gram.

Peter
Title: Re: Indo Dutch Cash of Pondicherry
Post by: Overlord on March 10, 2008, 04:51:31 PM
The second coin you show is Scholten 1248b or 1248d. The lower picture should be rotated 90 degrees clockwise. You see the lower part of "Pu" on the first line, followed by "Duchhe" between dots on the second line. The caracter "Ri" is off flan. The other side shows the Kali of Negapattanam with two large dots, here represented by what looks like an 8.

I think the first coin is Scholten 1248a. The Kali is somewhat less abstract and the original points at the shoulder are separated. If so, the characters are "Duchhe" and "Ri". The lower picture should also be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

Scholten calls these coins kasje (cash) and notes that while their official weight was 1.607 gram, the vary in weight from 1.00 to 1.67 gram.

Peter
Thanks for the info, Peter.