Muhi ud-din Muhammad Aurangzeb Bahadur Alamgir I. 1658-1707
Rupee AH1101 RY33 Surat
Silver 24.0mm, 11.5g (some countermarks)
KM# 300.86
Dietmar
Impressive. So how many Mughal emperors are represented in your collection, Dietmar?
Peter
Hello, Dietmar. The Surat rupees are so often broad flan and attractive like this one, aren't they? It is not possible for most of us to collect them by years, but I have occasionally bought extra coins of this sort, because there is often a different mark in the Seen of Jalus - maybe a new one for just about every year, it seems. Yours has a star that I have not noticed before. One day somebody will list them all, and maybe we shall find they tell a story?
Salvete
It would be nice to see a chart of such mint marks; like that of G & G with Malwa Sultanates or the one that Lingen and Wiggens did for Coins of the Scindia. My fantasy chart would include ALL Independent and feudatory states from Taxilla to the present, completely cross referenced with glorious high resolution color images.
richie
Dear Rangnath,
I fear that your fantasy chart will possibly remain just that - a fantasy. Not only would it take several lifetimes to make, but it would be so large as to be completely unwieldy, even with a computerised index. Not only that, but very few people would have a use for the complete thing. Terry Hardaker has spent over twenty years documenting the marks on punch-marked silver coins alone, and he's not finished yet, even with a deal of help from his colleagues. The chart of marks for Bhopal for the club project will get you in the mood (or put you off?) and after that you can tell us that you will carry on and do all the rest ............... or not.
I have Shanghaied my son, who can work with CAD, to produce digitased mint marks and differentiating marks found on coins of some series I have worked on, but I do not know if this is the most time-effective method. It should be the most accurate, assuming the die-cutters made the same shape every time - which they did not, obviously. Most folk use what in India are called 'eye copies' or what we might just call drawings. Ken did his that way. I am a piss poor artist (not a piss-artist, by the way) and would have to leave that work to others. Some marks use Arabic letters and calligraphy, and I'm not at all good at that, either. You already have my table of marks on Panna rupees, and I can tell you it took a very long time, even with my son's help. He does maps, too. But very slowly. Not many coin collectors seem to be good artists, unfortunately. But if you decide to actually make your fantasy table, or a lot of smaller ones, please let me know what, if anything, I can do to assist (having told you that I'm not good at anything, maybe you'll give me a wide berth?)
For my money, 'glorious high res. colour images' would not be the easiest kind of images to use for this purpose - but let's, by all means, experiment with everything we have at our disposal.
Salvete
Hi Peter,
at the moment only seven Emperors:
Sher Shah Suri, Akbar, Shah Jahan, Aurangzeb, Muhammad Shah, Alamgir II, Shah Alam II.
But come next week: Jahandar Shah and Furrukhsiyar.
I try to get all kompett.
Dietmar
Hi Salvete,
I think the presence of the Internet has given the Indian coins, a large forward shear.
Indian coins are now available to the public, and we will present the coins you never see otherwise received.
In june last year, I received a handful of Indian coins, and was initially intrigued by the unknown.
I was undecided what to do with it, I was already close to selling off all.
But then I come across this forum here, and had now found my platform to expand to know about my.
It will be followed by other, imagine the coins of India are interesting to us.
Dietmar
Oh, you are right Salvete. It was a hopeless 3 AM fantasy. 20 years of work on punch-mark coins? Is he OK?
Furrukhsiyar was a sad case, wasn't he?
Do you have a goal Dietmar? A rupee from each emperor? or from each mint?
richie
Well, Richie.
Mr Hardaker is as sane as you or me (at least, he was last time I saw him). Judge for yourself if that means he's OK! My view? No, he can't be.
And Yes, Farrukhsiyar was a Sad Case, or maybe he died happy, and what more can any of us ask?
Barry
Quote from: Rangnath on February 13, 2010, 05:39:32 PM
Do you have a goal Dietmar? A rupee from each emperor? or from each mint?
richie
richie, yes a rupee from each emperor is the first goal,
and maybe I'll make it even of any mint. ;)
Dietmar
Quote from: Medalstrike on February 13, 2010, 05:47:23 PM
richie, yes a rupee from each emperor is the first goal,
and maybe I'll make it even of any mint. ;)
Dietmar
That is a task in itself. I started collecting Mughal coins about 4 or 5 years ago. First aimlessly. Then I tried it. One coin of each Emperror. Unfortunately it seems a difficult task. After 4 or 5 years, sitting in and moving around all the mughal strongholds of the nort and west of India, I still do not own a single coin of Babur, Shah Suja, Dawar Baksh, Azam Shah, Kam Baksh, Azim us Shan, Akbar Adil Shah, Bedar Bakht, Md Akbar II & Bahadur Shah Zafar.
I would consider myself fortunate even if I see coins of some of these emperors in hand.
As regards the mints, even this aim of atleast one coin of each mughal mint has remained elusive. Some mints were so rich that coins of such mints are available in bulk. Mints like Surat, Shahjahanabad(Dehli), bur some are most likely camp mints where coins were issued only in one year or so and are elusive.
Here also there is confusion on whether coins of certain mints, specially of the later Mughals, were infact imperial Mughal issues or State coinage. It is infact this persuit of different mints that brought me to collect coins of different Princely States as quite a few coins that I picked up, attributed by dealers / traders as Mughal coins turned out to be IPS issues.
However best of luck.
I have seen and wondered about the different mint or is it mintmaster marks on the Mughal coinage of Surat. Even specifically of Aurangzeb but this is the first star that I have come across.
Amit
Quote from: asm on February 14, 2010, 01:58:29 AM
However best of luck.
Thanks Amit,
It is clear to me that it is not a simple Case,
and I will initially be limited to only the emperors to get together.
And for that I am taking all the time in the world.
Dietmar
Quote from: Salvete on February 13, 2010, 10:28:02 AM
Hello, Dietmar. The Surat rupees are so often broad flan and attractive like this one, aren't they? It is not possible for most of us to collect them by years, but I have occasionally bought extra coins of this sort, because there is often a different mark in the Seen of Jalus - maybe a new one for just about every year, it seems. Yours has a star that I have not noticed before. One day somebody will list them all, and maybe we shall find they tell a story?
Salvete
I checked my coin for the same year and found that it had a different mark than the star in the coin above. However, I was surprised when I say, at the coin fair yesterday, another coin of 1101/33 which has a mark different from the one on my coin as well as the one above.
I am curious to find out why were there different marks for coins issued in the same year? This was the time when the Mughal power was at its high. Do I correctly recall a point discussed earlier that mints would mint coins for any one who took bullion to have it converted? If so, were the marks put to identify the supply of coins to different entities who had had the coins coined? If so, were records ever maintained? Just thinking aloud...... but could be an interesting point to follow.
Amit
EDIT: I just saw this reply from Salvete in another thread on the coins of Surat mint of Farrukhsiyar. Would or could this be one of the reasons for the different marks? Such practices were common during the rule of the later Mughals, when thir power had ebbed. Was it prevelent even during the time of Aurangzeb? If so are any such entities known? I seem to have an endless list of questions. However answers to these will make my thinking on the the affairs in those days more clear.
Amit
Quote from: Salvete on February 14, 2010, 11:35:36 AM
Fascinating stuff, Figleaf. Apparently all European trading companies were inconvenienced (and robbed!) by the Mughal governments and their servants, and Surat was as bad as anywhere. Why not? It was their country, after all. The English eventually had their noses put out of joint during the growth of the Malwa opium trade, especially in the early 19th century, when they finally were rewarded for short-sightedly 'putting their eggs all in one basket' - Bombay Port. Then Karachi, Bhaunagar, Cambay and other ports had a few unexpectedly good years. Another fascinating story.
You are certainly right about the huge output of silver coins from Surat, and both rupees and some fractions of Surat remain very easy to get - but not all dates. Not only that, but Surat rupees were struck by a number of other powers over the years. Like Arcot rupees, of course. Thank goodness for differentiating marks! If you don't like complications, late Mughal numismatics is not the place to be: but if you do, the delights never end.
Salvete
Hello, Amit. So we have at least three marks for at least one year on Surat rupees. I am interested in your proposition that the mint authorities may have had a separate die engraved for each regular customer. I do not think that has been mentioned to me before, but perhaps someone can shed some light, please? It is quite a reasonable theory, as some bankers and traders must have been very regular clients. The mint was among the most active of all Mughal silver mints, and may well have needed to have a way of telling the rupees struck for each customer apart, but I can't think of a reason, offhand. All silver was assayed, remelted and adjusted for purity, so the purity of all output should be the same, within small limits. You are as close to the centre of Surat circulation as anybody I know, and maybe that is a line of research you can undertake, if you are interested? Just note in a table the marks you see on any Surat rupee you come across, along with date and regnal year, and any other differences you notice (such as with or without epithet, other marks, weight and diameter, and so on). If you ask for the same details from other collectors, maybe through this site, you may have as many entries in your table as you need in about a year. How you illustrate the marks will be a matter of personal choice, but hand made drawings would be perfectly scannable, if neat. Along with a study of anything you can get hold of that tells the history of the mint and its operations and the politics of the port, you would have a nice unpaid job. Self-imposed, if I may say so! Or maybe you think you are busy enough already? ;)
Salvete
Dear Salvete,
After some discussions a few weeks a go on this forum, I had looked at my coins of the Mughal era. stability of design was seen on the coins of Aurangzeb and the rulers there-after. I was stunned by the number of variations on the marks. I will, as suggested by you, sit down with a pen and paper and jot down the marks that I see on the coins of Aurangzeb. If memory serves me right, I did see not fewer than 7 or 8 in the 45+Surat mint coins of Aurangzeb that I have. Infact, I picked up a few recently only because of these differences.
Regarding this business of an uppaid job, pleasure, I believe, can never be measured in monetary terms. Well, neither can pain!!!
Once I put up a short list that I can prepare, I will put it up here to get help from the others. Scanning ZENO and SACG might also help.
Amit
I don't have many Surat rupees, Amit, but when you get started on this task (there is only a thin line between pleaseure and pain!) I will go through mine and send a short list. I feel sure others will help as well. These coins often appear on e-bay, so an hour spent loking at a few good sites and shops may well get you a few more. Try doing your list as an XL spreadsheet. Easy to update and print off, and easy to share. Just a suggestion, of course.
It will not be a waste of your time, and I look forward to seeing your results.
Salvete
Do I correctly recall a point discussed earlier that mints would mint coins for any one who took bullion to have it converted? If so, were the marks put to identify the supply of coins to different entities who had had the coins coined? If so, were records ever maintained?
What a good idea Amit! There is so much work to do!
richie
Coins were generally struck on demand of merchants/bankers against supply of bullion.
Foreign traders (incl. the European Trading Companies as some of the largest commercial traders) had to register all their goods they imported at the customhouse of the port. This included also 'bullion' (this could be in coins, bars or slabs) and had to pay import duty on it. At Surat, in the Mughal days, the 'bullion' was immediately transferred to the Mint and converted into coins. Traders often tried to smuggle in gold coins, but at the port of entree each passenger was thoroughly searched and if anything was found it was confiscated. Nevertheless people would take the risk and managed to bring in European gold coins (ducats).
See: Numismatic Digest, Vol. 29-30 (2005-2006), Jan Lingen A hoard of ducats from India. P.155-172.
Quote from: Oesho on February 16, 2010, 02:14:25 PM
Coins were generally struck on demand of merchants/bankers against supply of bullion.
Oesho,
Thank you for this information. I was refering to a similar discussion in some earlier thread. However, the querry I had was:
Did the mint have different marks for the coins supplied to different entities. Or was it possible that there were more than one mint master in each year of coin mintage?
This querry comes from the observation that in case of the coins of the Surat mint of Aurangzeb, there are observed more than one different mark in the seen of the Jalus on the reverse for one AH/RY combination.
Were these different marks ever catalogued?
Amit
Quote from: asm on February 17, 2010, 01:58:59 AM
Did the mint have different marks for the coins supplied to different entities. Or was it possible that there were more than one mint master in each year of coin mintage?
Were these different marks ever catalogued?
Yes, this is quite possible. There may have been one or two daroga's (mintmasters) during a certain year. Moreover as Surat for example had at times a very large output, several gangs of minters must have been employed. To keep control over the different gangs, dies were marked, besides the daroga mark, also marked by minute secrete marks. In case of fraud it was easy to trace the culprits. By the end of the day the dies were delivered back to the daroga and next day he would deliver them again to the particular minting gang.
Therefore you may observe a general daroga mark (usually in the loop of Seen of Jalus) and various clusters of 3, 4, 5 or 6 dots. These clusters may not be engraved on the dies at random, but may had a purpose to identify the different dies and the people who worked with them.