Well, I think it is - but I'm having trouble deciphering it....
(It's a uniface by the way)
I believe I see the date 22 at 7 o'clock. If so, my best guess would be Terengganu Saran Singh 7, pitis 1222 AH and the text would be Kadhir Malik al-Adil (coin of the just ruler) and diameter would be 20 mm. I can't say the rest of the lettering fits, though.
In theory, it could also be a pitis of Kelantan or Patani, but they are generally not uniface.
What is the actual diameter?
Peter
diameter is 20mm, which characters fo you think are the date?
(Where's Afrasi when you need him ;D)
These two twos.
Peter
Pits, Palembang. Millies #202.
I don't have Millies, so I checked Netscher & v.d. Chijs, as andyg's question was on the text. The closest I got was 193 (a copper coin) and 194 (a tin pitis.) Though there are some resemblances, there are also big differences in the text. If it is 194, the text would be al Sultan fi balad Palembang sanat 1203 - the sultan of the state of Palembang year 1203.
Peter
These type of pitis are undated and with corrupted Malay-Arabic inscription.
See for another specimen of the same type: http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=46683
The others, like the copper specimen date AH1198 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=1542) and the tin pitis dated 1203 (http://www.zeno.ru/showphoto.php?photo=81649) can be found there as well.
I think the dating 125!3 for the piece of NvdC is correct, but 1203 exists, too.
Millies is not complete, but better and completer than Netscher/van der Chijs.
Here are the pieces shown by Figleaf, alias Netscher/van der Chijs:
Very educational, all. Thank you. Piddling little thing on the file names: Palembang is now Indonesia, not Malaysia.
Peter
Thanks all.
PS can't find any entries in Krause for Palembang....
Quote from: andyg on October 23, 2010, 03:12:23 PM
PS can't find any entries in Krause for Palembang....
See 19th cent. ed. under Netherlands East Indies, p.918.
Quote from: Figleaf on October 23, 2010, 02:54:56 PM
Piddling little thing on the file names: Palembang is now Indonesia, not Malaysia.
Where did you see it referred to Malaysia?
Quote from: Oesho on October 23, 2010, 03:29:08 PM
See 19th cent. ed. under Netherlands East Indies, p.918.
Thanks, I really must get a newer version of this one than my 4th. Palembang seems to be omitted from the 4th edition in it's entirety.
Quote from: Oesho on October 23, 2010, 03:32:57 PM
Where did you see it referred to Malaysia?
I assume it's the labels on Afrisi's scans,
"Malaysia Palembang Pitis 1198"
Looking on Numismaster - they have two coins for "Netherlands East Indies\Palembang"
KM#1 Tin 14mm Octagonal - 1219 (1804)
KM#2 Tin 14mm Octagonal - 1219 (1804)
I have to admit I'm baffled (again) ???
No comment to KM from me. ;D
But I want to show the 1203 pieces.
The left one has a nearly omitted dot for the zero. This may have caused to write the zero at later dies as a small circle.
So the right one has a small circle below the arc of the 2.
At the pieces of 1253 the 5 is remarkable larger and has it's own clear place.
And this time with the correct country at the label ... ;)
A cute little coin! :D I just love the Javan?? script?
Quote from: Numii_Anglii on October 25, 2010, 06:19:25 PM
A cute little coin! :D I just love the Javan?? script?
These are two coins. I think the script is principally Malayo-Arabic, but in a very soft style, which shows the neighbarhood of the Javanese.
Hi all, My name is Kriyasa from Indonesia.
Tin pitis are both circulate in Malaysia and Palembang, through history they are both under Srivijaya ruler.
These coins is called tin pitis, and I have many-many coins like this. In Indonesia, I could get it a dollar for two or three coins.
The books that I have that discuss these coins are Millies and Saran Singh, both books can be downloaded through internet.
Regards,
Quote from: kriyasa on January 04, 2011, 08:02:48 AM
Hi all, My name is Kriyasa from Indonesia.
Tin pitis are both circulate in Malaysia and Palembang, through history they are both under Srivijaya ruler.
These coins is called tin pitis, and I have many-many coins like this. In Indonesia, I could get it a dollar for two or three coins.
The books that I have that discuss these coins are Millies and Saran Singh, both books can be downloaded through internet.
Selamat datang, welcome.
Do you have a link for this download?
I would also be interested in Millies. Surely, that book is free of copyright by now.
Peter
Quote from: Figleaf on January 04, 2011, 01:27:22 PM
I would also be interested in Millies. Surely, that book is free of copyright by now.
Peter
Indeed so:
http://www.archive.org/details/recherchessurle01millgoog
This looks like the most useful version
http://ia700300.us.archive.org/33/items/recherchessurle01millgoog/recherchessurle01millgoog.pdf
Tried that. The lower link refers to the upper link which in turn refers to Google where you can't download the book. *sigh*
Peter
Quote from: Figleaf on January 04, 2011, 01:42:01 PM
Tried that. The lower link refers to the upper link which in turn refers to Google where you can't download the book. *sigh*
Peter
Works here.
I uploaded it here, though I note that the download link will expire in 30 days....
http://rapidshare.com/files/440746284/recherchessurle01millgoog.pdf
Gottit! Thanks, thelawnet. You made my day.
Peter
yes that's correct,
sorry, I just get online. Thanks Lawnet for welcoming me.
The 2 books can be downloaded through archieve.org
I've corrected the country on my computer on the 23th of Oct, but here is the mistake on the label still visible. :-[
If you collect earlier South East Asian coins, you shouldn't be so addicted to KM. ;D Try Mitchiner or Singh!
I've recently purchased 100 of them and this weekend will make detailed sorting of types, will measure weights, will put results here. I'm generally interested only in XIX century coinage as needed to draw limit somewhere, but of course I want to sort them all. So, images here in few days :)
So far I've got Millies and Mitchiner, is there any chance that Dutch catalog is somewhere online or somebody has it in pdf?
Also, I don't get why at least those newer aren't in Krause, only two pieces of which one is obviously wrongly described. This is so wonderful hobby, when you sometimes discover thing like this ;D
Seller (local Palembang guy) told me that huge amounts of those have been recently discovered and that's why their price fell so dramatically.
So I finally finished sorting of those coins, wanted to read Millies chapter related to Palembang first, but I don't know French so used Google translator :) So strange that over a century later more complete book doesn't exist and this is obviously far from completion.
I got several types in my lot, mostly round holed and small round pieces without hole. All are cast tin, uniface, so other side not imaged. Here they are, as KM general criteria would divide them:
Let's start with those newest dated, octogonal holed coins AH1219. There are two sizes
#1 smaller one, corresponding to KM#1 d=14mm, m=0,24g
(http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6125/pal1219sm.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/pal1219sm.jpg/)
#2 larger, same legend, d=19-20 mm, m=0,53-0,88g
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083509/http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2050/pal1219lg.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/52/pal1219lg.jpg/)
This one might easily be KM#2, but it's wrongly described there. Holes are of the same size.
#3 is small round coin, d=12,5mm with round hole of 7,5 mm, mass of only 0,22-0,30g, worn, so nothing could be seen here. Might be a fractional of #9 onwards.
#4 is small round coin without hole, d=12,5-15 mm, m=0,26-1,02g (0,26-0,75 if we omit lightest and heaviest)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083538/http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8355/palmalibr.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/palmalibr.jpg/)
They have different dates, from lower left 1113(reverse 3), 1113(without first 1, dot only) 1163, 1183(by far most common in my lot), 1193. Millies mention them, as well as collectors on zeno.ru. However, the inscriptions are all the same as Palembang pieces don't have name of the emperor, so I consider them the same major type. It seems like they've minted it every 10 year, but also, it could even be possible that all of them are the same date, style of almost each of 25 I got there were different, so might be the year. Especially 1183 and 1193 might be the same, in latter just numeral is filled or closely written. Some of them also look like 1113. However, almost all 1113-1163 pieces are lighter than the newer. First vary from 0,26-0,42g, while 1183 and 93 are 0,39-1,02g. They are also larger in diameter, which varies much less than weight itself, from plain reason of casting process.
#5 Big round piece, undated, I got only 1 example which is not particularly good due to extra metal over its face, which is common in Palembang coins, d=22mm, m=1,15g
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083558/http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/4687/palvelikibr.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/267/palvelikibr.jpg/)
zeno.ru got better photos of this interesting example
#6 round piece with quadratic hole, d=16 mm, hole diagonal d=13mm!, m=0,29g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20140819060421/http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3628/palquad.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/palquad.jpg/)
Got also only 1 example and couldn't read legend. I assume it belongs to older rulers with used Chinese script, copying Chinese similar shape coins. Don't see this peculiar piece on zeno.ru nor Millies mention it.
#7 smaller round coin, d=14mm with round hole of 7,5 mm, m=0,33g. Might be a fractional of #9 onwards.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083633/http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/8291/palmalir.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/palmalir.jpg/)
also, quite heavily circulated, but legend is seen. Can't find the date though, but reminds a lot to next example.
#8 a bit larger, but still smaller than ordinary holed pitis, d=15-16mm, hole same of 7,5mm, m=0,48-0,65g
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083651/http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/3020/palsrednjir.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/828/palsrednjir.jpg/)
It's described on zeno.ru as 1201, but nor on their nor on my examples I could agree. They are mostly worn, or with too much stray metal, but from this example I could read on the top, in backwards 1110, or maaaybe 1210. If that's date at all! The Y, or Arabic 2 they refer to is part of the legend seen on the other coins. This might easily be fractional of the following type(s)
All the other types belong to the most common, round holed pitis, all sized 18-20mm. More than half of my lot were those combined:
#9 as I called it "WS" type. Hole size of 7-7,5 mm correspondents to three smaller, possibly fractional pieces. Mass varies from 0,58-1,45g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083712/http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2858/palws.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/27/palws.jpg/)
Legend is sometimes completely backwards, as on the left. Varies a lot, with "more sticks" on the top. Right piece shows great detail, though not the best preserved of selection. Although this might be some kind of date related to those sticks I doubt it.
#10 Dated type...1202 and 1203. Majority of all bigger round holed pitis were 1203. Only two were 1202 and they might even be 1203. Those have slightly smaller holes and masses of 0,63 to 1,24g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083732/http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/581/pal1203.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/33/pal1203.jpg/)
Already discussed here, but I must say they're all 1203, not 1253, when Palembang didn't exist any more. Size of 0 varies as the style of the other numerals. Legends are basically the same, although not always connected the same way.
#11 Another from the same "family". It also might be speculated with the date, but I think it's inscription only. Less examples, less mass variation, 0,71 to 1,20g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083749/http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/6447/palvelikir1.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/252/palvelikir1.jpg/)
#12 Another strange type, m = 0,74 and 1,31 g (2 pcs)
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083805/http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6756/palvelikir2.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/213/palvelikir2.jpg/)
#13 A peculiar piece with strangely evaluated Arabit script, bigger hole (8mm), 0,60 g. Might be same as #9
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083822/http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/4097/palvelikir3.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/palvelikir3.jpg/)
#14 Another example, similar to #9, but different legends, m=0,73g
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083839/http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/2861/palvelikir4.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/810/palvelikir4.jpg/)
They attribute this piece to Badaruddin II on zeno.ru, as of some similarities to legends on 1219 pieces. I'm skeptical.
#15 Another peculiar piece, fine cast, almost like milled, fine letters, different style. Very gentle and shallow, so here's image on direct sunlight. 0.56g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20151111083856/http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7452/palvelikir5.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/510/palvelikir5.jpg/)
I know it's not something new here, but I hope it will help at least few people to get idea on the coins. I hope also I'll learn more about them from you guys! I generally collect 1801 to date, so still have to decide will I keep all types and then, I'd have to complete collection with missing pieces, like copper 1198 fulus.
P.S. I didn't cross reference on Millies # on purpose, as he also didn't explain shown coins, rather describe Palembang coinage, while many of his images are actually the same coins. Octagonal pieces e.g.
A quick look in Netscher and Van der Chijs yields:
| Natko | NvdC |
| 1 | 196 |
| 2 | 195 |
| 3 | possibly 213 or 215? |
| 4 | 190-192 |
| 5 | 211 |
| 6 | 216 |
| 7 | 212? |
| 8 | 207? |
| 9 | 209 |
| 10 | 193 |
| 11 | 208 |
| 12 | 194 |
| 13 | 214? |
| 14 | ??? |
| 15 | ??? |
I wil gladly give my opinion for another one, though.
Peter
Quote from: natko on October 30, 2011, 09:09:20 PM
#6 round piece with quadratic hole, d=16 mm, hole diagonal d=13mm!, m=0,29g.
(http://web.archive.org/web/20140819060421/http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3628/palquad.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/717/palquad.jpg/)
Got also only 1 example and couldn't read legend. I assume it belongs to older rulers with used Chinese script, copying Chinese similar shape coins. Don't see this peculiar piece on zeno.ru nor Millies mention it.
I know it's not something new here, but I hope it will help at least few people to get idea on the coins. I hope also I'll learn more about them from you guys! I generally collect 1801 to date, so still have to decide will I keep all types and then, I'd have to complete collection with missing pieces, like copper 1198 fulus.
Natco, your coin with Chinese characters reads 'Hsien ping yuan pao' clockwise. It is a copy of a type of trade cash made at Amoy for the monsoon trade. The originals circa 1570 were leaded bronze 22mm. After 1590 they were debased with more lead and made progressively smaller. They ceased about 1640, but were copied for 100 more years. Yours is a close copy of what they looked like circa 1600. Millies talks about the Chinese mint pp38-42. Zeno does not recognize them for what they are and thinks they are all local. There are a lot of them there. See #42531, 50275, 52407.
Thanks, bgriff. Can you post a 1570 original, please?
Peter
My collection is sparse, but this is a 21.5mm early piece. In mint state they are as sharp as any Ming cash. There were numerous reign titles used, but by 1596 they were using only Hsien-ping yuan pao. In Millies pp38-42 can be read about the Dutch encountering the debased version. "Hammion" there, which they thought was the current king of China comes from them asking what this inscription was. In Fukienese "Ham-pi-ong" (Hsien-ping king).
Thank you. I can see the resemblance. I should point out, however, that the Dutch had nothing to do with the Palembang pities. The issues were for the account of the local ruler, who outsourced production to local Chinese. In fact, they were not even meant to be seen individually, as they were strung or packaged together, maybe inspired by Chinese cash strings, but with a local twist.
Peter
Here is how they looked by 1596. This is a Chinese original, kind of worn. Circa 1618 the new supplies coming from China dwindled, so their value increased so much that in Banten, Cirebon, Jepara copies began to be made in pewter. When the VOC found out that's why they were selling so much lead to their Chinese captain at Batavia, they got him to set up a mint for them. All that ended around 1639 when there were so many it wasn't profitable anymore. The British and Danes had flooded the market with lead. In areas where tin was plentiful they were also made, including Palembang. The originals were fragile, wore out and broke apart in use, and were gone by 1660. Generally pitis were heftier than these, so this exact type went out of style. There is no connection to the Palembang Sultanate pitis. But the tin copies made there turn up occasionally.
In 1596 the first Dutch probe for spice trading docked at Banten. It's a long story what happened... but they had to use the pitis. They had to buy them with pieces of 8. Fortunately one of the captains recorded everything in detail for a book, and brought back some pitis. He found out where they came from, and their history, and put a picture of one in his book. It allows attribution of a big swath of private coinages of the time.
This is the most common reign title for the earlier type, Hsiang-fu yuan pao. At 21.5 mm. They get down to 19mm.