The Kettle Family.
After the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes(1685) a French Huguenot glass stainer from Meaux emigrated and settled in Birmingham, England. His name was Henri Quitel, which at some point was anglicized to Kettle.
Henry Kettle took over the family business in the late 1780's and expanded it into the manufacturing of counters & medals. His two sons, Thomas & Wiliam join the firm early 1800's & in 1812 Thomas took over the company.
Thomas' son, Sir Rupert Alfred Kettle who had been knighted in1879, acquired a coat of arms showing a beehive surrounded by a laurel wreath with the motto "Qui Tel", showing the family had not forgotten their roots. It can be translated as "Who is such a man as this?".
Henry started making imitation spade guineas in 1793.
(http://constanius.com/img//dscf2368_edited-1-horz.jpg)
This is the first token listed in L. B. Fauver's 1982 "Exonumia Symbolism & Classification: A Catalogue of Kettle Pieces....................."
he lists it as Geo III 1793-1b (P) 19-20mm (B2070) R-7. b for brass, R-7 for 10-20 in existence. This was the only one of Kettle's imitation spades that Fauver could not illustrate as he was unable to find an example of it.
Neilson Counter # 2470.
To Be Continued.........
Henry Kettle's first medal, according to Fauver, was this Union 1801
Obv. ENGLAND & IRELAND UNITED/ KETTLE/ 1801
Rev. PROSPERITY TO THE UNITED KINGDOMS
In copper Union 1801a 20mm R-8(5-10)
BHM#528 only listed in brass RR(very rare)
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf2874-horz.jpg)
To be continued...........
Then later in the same year, 1801, for the Preliminary Treaty of Amiens he issued 6 medals.
(http://constanius.com/img/945983-verta.jpg)
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf0953-horz-1-vert.jpg)
Of note is the 5th medal down with Geo III on the obverse showing tooling marks & pivot point. So the die was not completely finished when it was struck and the British Museum has 2 examples showing more work done to the die, it is also is in copper not brass, unlisted as such.
To be continued..........
In 1801 Henry Kettle was still making Imitation Spade Guineas but his last issue of them was dated 1802, he was alsp producing the medals for the Treaty of Amiens the last of which is the one pictured below, dated 1802 but he also found time to issue in 1801, 1803 & 1805 Imitation U.S. Gold Coins
(http://constanius.com/img/1802amiens.jpg)
Circa 1803 he changed the firm's name to Kettle & Sons, the exact date when his presumed eldest son Thomas took over the company is not known but c.1812.
I will post a few of his pieces later.
To be continued......
In the same way that his father took full advantage of the peace in 1801 by issuing so many commemoratives so did Thomas Kettle in 1814 with the defeat of Napoleon. Thomas found inspiration in a satirical cartoon, which he copied and so the image was reversed upon the medal struck, which became one that Napoleonic & Kettle collectors must have.
(http://constanius.com/img/elba.jpg)
(courtesy of the Bodleian Library)
I was fortunate to find an unlisted variety & one which so far I have been unable to find another. I have seen about 30 images of the regular one since I found the variant.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf2596-horz.jpg)
(http://constanius.com/img/69248.jpg)
Some of the differences are....length of the horns, distance between foot & hind leg, angle of body & arm & ground behind the hindmost leg.
To be continued...........
BHM#823 The Peace of Paris, R.
Fauver page 39/40: Geo P.W. 1814-1b (P) 24mm R-8.
Obv. Uniformed bust of the Prince Regent bare head left. H.R.H GEORGE PRINCE OF WALES. P. R. T.
Rev. Inscription within open wreath WELLINGTON / ALEXANDER / BLUCHER / PEACE / 1814
These, though both brass, have a very different composition, the first is typical of Kettles brass pieces but the second though appearing harder seems to be compressed more, perhaps double struck? I have another medal, struck from this unusual brass, which I will be posting later. The close-up image below shows the copying/reducing lines clearly.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf4065-vert.jpg)
To be continued.......
Forrer states that a 1814 medal signed 'K & S' was issued by Kettle but that was in fact issued by Kempson & Sons, though not engraved by them.
The period the company was known as Kettle & Sons only lasted between c.1803-c.1812 and 'K & S' on their medals was only used between 1805(Death of Nelson) - 1809(Geo III 50th year), by 1810, though the company was still Kettle & son, only 'Kettle' was used. The two pieces signed K & S, that Forrer stated were by Kettle, fall out of that date range.
By 1814 the company was run by Thomas Kettle(medals from this date in Brown are listed as by T. Kettle) & he only used 'Kettle' or, in many cases, left his work unsigned.
To be continued.....
This is an interesting group from 1814, though there is some doubt about the last one as to date of issue, what is not in doubt is that the person portrayed on all these medals is Frederick Wilhelm II(who died in 1797) not his son, Frederick Wilhelm III. The first two commemorate the Preliminaries of The Paris Peace Treaty but the third, is almost an exact copy of the Prussian 1796 d'or down to the Berlin mintmark & could equally have been issued as a imitation gold coin for gaming, perhaps as early as 1801 when Kettle senior began issuing imitation American golds coins. Part of the fascination of collecting Kettle pieces is that there is still scope for research, study & conjecture.
(http://constanius.com/img/2947a-horz-vert123.jpg)
To be continued.......
The Restoration of the Bourbon Dynasty 1814
(http://constanius.com/img/2746-horz.jpg)
Obv. Uniformed bust of Louis XVIII, bare head left. LOUIS XVIII RESTOD MAR 31 1814 laurel branches below.
Rev. Inscription within sprays of palm and laurel BY / THE.UNITED / EFFORTS / OF / ENGLAND / AND.ITS / ALLIES
BHM#801 AE silvered 25 by Thomas Kettle. RR.
(http://constanius.com/img/005-1.jpg)(http://constanius.com/img/010-1.jpg)
Brokage of the obverse of BHM #800 struck on an undersized(24mm) & thinner planchet than usual.
Uniformed bust of Louis XVIII bare head facing. LOUIS XVIII RESTORED MAR. 31. 1814 Br. 25 by T. Kettle R.
To be continued......
I need to back up to add my latest acquisition.
1794 imitation spade guinea by Henry Kettle. Geo III 1794 2a plain edge R-7, Fauver.
Has been savagely cleaned but the detail is still superb, especially for an extremely rare piece. It is the best example that I have seen, the fact of it being cleaned might account for its very light colour but a term that Batty used sparingly "Pale Copper" for some other items, would fit.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf2960-horz.jpg)
To be continued.....
Only just could take the time to read your whole thread from beginning to end.
Very interesting story, and thorough research. Thanks for this !
I may read too much into the story and the medals, but it seems that we have here a designer who was frustrated by his forced emigration. Peace is more than a commercial opportunity, it is a goal. Napoleon is a war monger. Kettle will not miss him.
Peter
This Kettle piece recently acquired.
A spade guinea type with legend GOD PROTECTS THE JUST rev. obit etc. Brass 26mm.
That is BHM#994, Kettle used that bust of George previously in 1810.
Here is an unsigned variant of that 1810 medal BHM #682 with Kettle below the bust.
Forrer lists this unsigned variant as Geo III 50th-4a(the 'a' being for copper) and rates it as rarity R-8(5-10 pieces) but does not list it as silvered, making this as possibly being R-9(2-4) or R-10(unique).
(http://constanius.com/img/2985.jpg)
BHM#995, 1820 Death Medal; (Forrer lists it as 1810 Jubilee Medal, which is right?)
Obv. Similar to No. 994. Laureate head of George III, right. GOD PROTECTS THE JUST
Rev. Name of Jehovah in Hebrew above rays shining down on Imperial crown. FEAR GOD HONOUR THE KING
25mm by T. Kettle. RRRR. Highest rarity in BHM.
It is hard to decide on the year, as the same obverse was used both for the 1810 dated Jubilee & the 1820 Death medals. So undated medals, with a reverse that could conceivably be appropriately used for either, are a problem. Personally, I feel the inscription on the reverse better suits the Jubilee in 1810.
(http://constanius.com/img/012.jpg)
Plain Edge, Unsigned, Small Gap Head to 'C'
(http://constanius.com/img/024.jpg)
Straight Engrailed Edge, Signed, Large Gap
(http://constanius.com/img/007-1.jpg)
Diagonally Engrailed Edge, Signed, Large Gap
This unsigned piece has a very similar design with name of Jehovah in Hebrew above rays shining down on Imperial crown. FEAR GOD HONOUR THE KING REWARD OF MERIT
reverse has the Lords Prayer written out in full. brass 27.9mm
Edited the size ::)
Nice Malcolm. I believe that Pat also has one or maybe more of these. Mine is holed, can't find the image at present.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf0961-horz.jpg)
Unlisted in BHM or by Fauver.
(http://www.omnicoin.com/coins/967706.jpg)
George III Death Medal 1820. Obv. Name of Jehovah in Hebrew above rays shining down on Imperial crown.FEAR GOD, HONOUR THE KING. Rev. THE LORD'S PRAYER. BHM# 996 RRRR. Br. 25mm by Kettle. Fauver lists it as 1810 50th Jubilee.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf3068-horz.jpg)
Fauver: Geo III-1b, 1801 19.5mm brass R-6, Batty 2083.
This one for the GRAND NATIONAL JUBILEE (remainder illegible) dated 1809 is signed K (&?) S with COMMEMOR GEORGE III ACCESSION on ribbon Crowned sword and sceptre 50 below
Brass 25mm
The full text is:
GRAND NATIONAL
JUBILEE.
CELEBRATED OCT.25.
1809 THE KING
HAVING ENTERED
IN
THE 50. YEAR
OF HIS REIGN.
The text on the ribbon (left to right) is COMMEMOR / GEORGE III / ACCESSION
Peter
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf3082-horz.jpg)
Another from 1809, this is signed Kettle.
(http://constanius.com/img/img_2527-horz.jpg)
One from 1810 BHM #681, unsigned, does not look like a usual Kettle portrait but luckily the reverse is shared with signed Kettle tokens(even though the one pictured below, for comparison, is a rare unsigned variant).
(http://constanius.com/img/2985.jpg)
Are there tokens attributed to the Kettles?
Quote from: bgriff99 on September 29, 2014, 07:31:49 AM
Are there tokens attributed to the Kettles?
Yes, from British Imitation Spade Guineas 1793-1802(used as card counters/tokens), Imitation USA Gold Eagles 1801-1805(counters/tokens), USA political & Trade tokens, British Card Counters etc.
Pat
Ok. I meant as British or Canadian halfpenny or penny tokens. That would seem to be right up their alley.
As far as I am aware, no. I have collected Kettle pieces for a number of years & have the reference work by Fauver and so far zilch!
Thanks for your interest :)
Pat
Fauver, Alexander 1814-1fpa 25mm R-6 by Kettle. The copy/reducing lines are clearly visible, the cutter juddered going over the bust ribbon and some of the letters. The 'D' has a clear cutting line acrossed it. As is the case with these medals, that show the die still had machined marks, the piece is in great condition, being silvered-copper also makes it slightly rarer.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf3179.jpg)
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf3178.jpg)
Pat
Another as the one in Reply #21 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,27159.msg184778.html#msg184778) in copper; for the jubilee, LONG LIVE THE KING
A document relating to Thomas joining his father in business 1802 & perhaps helping to expand it,
Indenture of mortgage by way of demise from Thomas Kettle of Birmingham, button maker, to Henry Hill of Birmingham, painter, of a messuage, land and appurtenances in Suffolk Street, Birmingham. Parchment. Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/45
Date: 25 May 1802
A couple of documents relating to Thomas Kettle financial dealings re his acquisition of his father's company in 1811,
Bond from Thomas Kettle of Birmingham, button maker, to William Ashbee, brassfounder, and Eleazar Ashbee, gilt toymaker, both of Birmingham to secure the sum of £300. Paper. Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/48 Date: 24 June 1811
Assignment of mortgage from Henry Hill of Birmingham, painter, by the direction of Thomas kettle of Birmingham, button maker, to William Ashbee, brass founder, and Eleazar Ashbee, gilt toymaker, both of Birmingham, of a messuage, land and appurtenances in Suffolk Street, Birmingham. Parchment.
Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/47 Date: 24 June 1811.
One for a property expansion(or relocation) in 1817,
Assignment from Thomas Kettle of Birmingham, gilt toymaker, to Thomas Willmare of Birmingham, dealer in metals, of a messuage, manufactory and appurtenances in Suffolk Street, Birmingham, Subject to a mortgage from the said Thomas Kettle to William Ashbee and Eleazar Ashbee. Paper. Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/50 Date: 15 July 1817
In 1818 his address is, Kettle Thomas, 22 Suffolk-street
Another for a property expansion(or relocation) in 1825,
Assignment of mortgage from Eleazar Ashbee of Birmingham, gilt toy maker, by the direction of Thomas Kettle of Birmingham, button maker, to John Birch of Aston, gent., of a messuage, land and appurtenances in Suffolk Street, Birmingham. Parchment.
Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/51 Date: 28 June 1825
This 1838 advert shows the expansion to 3 addresses,
(http://constanius.com/img/kettle1838advertisement.jpg)
Thomas Kettle had married Mary Twist on the 7 Nov 1796 Birmingham, in a directory of 1849,
Kettle Mary, jewellery and black ornament manufacturer, 99, Suffolk street.
Kettle Thos. jewellery mnfr.; h. 99, Suffolk st.
But by 1861,
Hobson Frederick, Joseph, (late T. H. Kettle,) button manufacturer, stamper and piercer, jeweller, gilt toy manufacturer, silversmith, glass toy maker, watch key and chain manufacturer, 99, Suffolk street
The surname Twist immediately rang a bell with me - A billiard and bagatelle table maker and sole inventor Sam Twist, his business commenced in 1848 with various addresses in Birmingham over the next few years.
Many tokens being issued with his reverse showing a billiard table and his name as inventor and maker.
As I don't have any myself here is a scan from Four Studies of British Metallic Tickets etc by R N P Hawkins
I wonder if this is the same Samuel Twist,
"2838. Samuel Twist, Birmingham—Improvements in casters for furniture and other purposes. Dated 22nd December, 1855"
perhaps the need to maneuver heavy billiard tables inspired him to patent the above?
This patent is his,
"Samuel Beddows and Samuel Twist, of Birmingham, for an improved bagatelle table, 1847.
This last document raises the possibility that Samuel Twist was Mary's brother, & hence Thomas' brother-in-law, or at least related to her. Perhaps the Twist tokens might then have been have been produced by Kettle?
Lease for a year from Thomas Kettle of Birmingham, button maker and jeweller, and Samuel Twist of Birmingham, victualler, to Patience Robinson of Kidderminster, co. Worc., widow, of a messuage, manufactory and land with appurtenances in Suffolk Street, Birmingham. Parchment. Reference: MS 3388/Acc 1933-008/57 Date: 29 August 1826
Pat
That certainly would be the next step after the billiard tables.
The date 1855 fits neatly too, Hawkins lists Sam Twist from 1848 through to 1854, (I expect it was the directory of 1861 that did not list him) while I see Thomas Kettle too had moved on before 1861
1818 Birmingham directory lists 3 Twists as victuallers(pub owners),
note Joseph Twist is on Suffolk St., where Thomas Kettle & Samuel Twist leased some property in 1826 from a widow and where Kettle was still located many years later, plus Samuel being a pub owner would explain his interest in billiard & bagatelle tables, as many pubs had a "billiards-room",
Twist Hannah, victualler, Carr's-lane
Twist Joseph, victualler, Suffolk-street(The Three Crowns)
Twist Samuel, victualler, Paradise-street(The White Hart)
Mary Twist, daughter of Joseph Twist above, married Thomas Kettle in 1796.
In 1804 William Kettle of Suffolk St.(Thomas' brother) married Maria Twist of Paradise street.
Sam & Maria were brother & sister, there father, Francis, was the victualler of the White Hart Paradise street earlier.
Parents FRANCIS & ANN(Hannah) Twist
ANN(Hannah) 1771
SAMUEL 1776*
MARY 1778
JOSEPH 1781
MARIA 1782*
So both of Henry Kettles sons married Twist girls! Perhaps the girls were cousins.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn21/constanius/Twist.jpg)
Stag, S[amuel] Twist, brass Threepence by S. Hiron, bagatelle table, rev. stag, 27mm (W 3300)
Thanks for pointing out the Twist tokens Malcolm :)
Pat
Yes Hawkins mentions the Stag public house among others, I shall attempt a précis of the article later today.
I notice too that the patent shows "Samuel Beddows and Samuel Twist, of Birmingham... see token G in the scan above for Beddows [apparently there is a couple of variations in spelling seen of this]
The Stag token might in fact be a White Hart, the same name as Samuel's pub.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn21/constanius/White%20Hart.jpg) (http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn21/constanius/Twist.jpg)
This is just another White Hart pub sign, not the one on Paradise street.
9 June 1834 on the 29th ult , after a long illness, Mr Samuel Twist, of Paradise Street, in his 58th year. Other articles say he was the licencee of the White Hart Inn, Paradise Street which was "pursuant of the direction of his will" to be sold by auction
So perhaps Samuel Twist was the son of Samuel Twist?
Pat
Hawkins does mention the Stag public house by name.
Here are a few quotes from his book:
1.Sam TWIST
a. In his business commencing year 1848 Sam Twist was listed as :- billiard table maker and sole inventor of the patent circular-ended slate-bottomed bagatelle table This is depicted in Figures A to E, G, and J of the Plate.
Within five years thence, the classified trades section of Birmingham directories introduced a new category Billiard and Bagatelle Table Makers, which must have been prompted by his marketing, and at first contained only three entries - himself alone and in partnership, and a competitor J. Child (see later mention) who did not last as long as the combined span of those partners.
b. Twist's successive addresses in this trade were:-
1848 1 Broad Street, Islington (which was taken over in 1849 by a belts & braces maker);
1849 37 Ruston Street (John Bennett, q.v., was there in 1848) 1850-3 32 Broad Street, Easy Row (the occupants in 1854 were a firm of ironfounders and a tobacconist/newsagent)
1853 also in Brasshouse Yard.
1854 in Tennant Street.
But he also traded for apparently the years 1850-54 with a partner William Morris who took up the same occupation, as Twist & Morris - this overlapping activity has necessitated separate itemizing of that man and the partnership. Furthermore, there was ephemeral beer-retailing by Twist and in the partnership name, which shows up on checks and thus has to be mentioned in detail later....
...Sam Twist while at 32 Broad Street retailed beer there in 1851-53. Many beer shops in Birmingham used names of the same type as used by public houses; Twist's choice of name was The Stag (unusual for Birmingham, where White Hart and Roebuck were the common versions for this creature). Thus it seems reasonable to ascribe to Twist's own beer trading a check (not illustrated) in Batty's catalogue (i 2444D) in the above group which for reverse shows simply a beautiful depiction of a chained stag lodged (the heraldic term for reclining), the words Check Three Pence and the signature of Hiron. This must have been struck in Hiron's last year of business 1851....
2. Twist & Morris
a. Normally Birmingham business partners sublimated their individualities under their team style and address, but this team style seemed to take on an identity extra to its component persons. Its successive addresses partly overlapped theirs and were :-
1850-2 32 Broad Street, Easy Row
1853 Brasshouse Yard and, adjoining it, 1, 2, 3, Broad Street, Islington.
1854 133, Broad Street, Islington.
3. William Morris
a. As stated, William Morris was Sam Twist's partner from 1850 to 1854 and shared his business activities. He had no separate listing earlier or meanwhile, except in the last partnership year 1854 when his address was given as 133 Broad Street, Islington. There he continued to reside and operate as a bagatelle table maker until 1857(-58).
Later there were beer retailers of his name in 1871-77 at 49 Parade, in 1867-74 at 155 Icknield Street East (followed there by Mrs Emma Morris in 1875-96 and then a James Morris), and several in the 1890's....
...After dissolution of the partnership, the goodwill had evidently passed mainly to Morris and the design rights absolutely. The obverse legend indicates that the table concerned had become patented. Cottrill will have made the die about the same time as he made the Fig. E die for Twist, and it similarly shows a table and cue facing the opposite way to those in Figs. A to C. But this Morris version of table is shown as having pockets; the 9 cups are concave as formerly; no balls are visible.
4. Samuel Beddows
a. Traced addresses of this billiard and bagatelle table maker (with spelling variations Beddoes and Beddowes) are shown below prefixed with the further one shown on his picture obverse :-
c.1850 119 Broad Street, Islington
1851 167 Islington
1852 back of the Calthorpe Arms, 77 Bath Row
(1858-)59-63 Brasshouse Yard (later than Twist & Morris, earlier than R. Jackson, and with intervening occupants practising quite different trades) 1866-9 St Peter's Place (as successor occupant to R. Jackson)....
[OCR scan BTW]
(http://constanius.com/img/3429-horza.jpg)
Gilded copper.
George III Death Medal 1820. Obv. Name of Jehovah in Hebrew above rays shining down on Imperial crown. FEAR GOD, HONOUR THE KING.
Rev. THE LORD'S PRAYER. BHM# 996 RRRR. 25mm by Kettle. Fauver lists it as 1810 50th Jubilee.
A couple of illustrations from an 1800 book, where Henry & Thomas Kettle are shown as Kettle & Son, at that time they were located at 22 Suffolk street.
(http://constanius.com/img/kettlescroll.jpg)
(http://constanius.com/img/kettlescroll2.jpg)
In an 1818 directory, Thomas & William are listed as
Kettle, William, Button Mkr In General, Mfr Of Military Stocks &c, Suffolk St
Kettle, William(2nd Entry), Shoe Clasp &Sleeve Links, Pewter Toy Watches, Suffolk St
Kettle, Thomas, Gilt Toy Mkr, Factor, Suffolk St
I immediately recognised other names from the lists shown, one of these deserves special mention:
Sir Edward Thamason (http://www.925-1000.com/a_Thomason.html) of course is well know to numismatics. He issued a copper token Davis Warwickshire # 47-48 with his own bust in a wreath and the reverse read TOKEN FOR ONE PENNY 1811 the second piece has sloping top ones while the first has flat tops.
Thomason owes his place in my heart not to numismatics, but to the magnificent corkscrew that bears his name.
I saw his corkscrew earlier today on that link I posted.
I discovered the website by searching online in relation to my research into my Twist and Kettle family and was most interested (even excited!) to find these entries.
Although I knew of the marriage of Mary Twist to Thomas Kettle and their possible son Sir Rupert Alfred Kettle, I had not found any information to confirm, to my saitisfaction, that the Maria Twist was Maria Twist in my Twist family. I am very careful before accepting such information as being correct.
I think though the connection of Thomas Kettle and Samuel Twist (Mary's brother), as well as other census entries, does confirm their identity. Also your acknowledgement that Mary and Thomas were the parents of Rupert Alfred Kettle. Maria Twist marrying William Kettle was Mary's sister. I didn't know that William was also involved in the business.
The postings here have given so much more information about them, which is so interesting. I didn't know anything really about the manufacture of medals or tokens or such coins, nor that the Kettle brothers were die-sinkers, or even what that meant ! The photos of the bagatelle checks for Samuel Twist were again something I knew nothing about.
What is the book by Hawkins that you quote from ?
Although I have been researching this Twist family for over 30 years, off and on, I have discovered a considerable amount of information over the past few months which has been so fascinating - including two Twist sisters marrying two brothers who were champion pugilists who led a very colourful and well documented life !
Four studies of British metallic tickets and commercial checks of the 19th-20th centuries by Hawkins, R. N. P.
This 1975 book is now out of print and very scarce, possibly it could be found with a booksearcher [I checked abebooks and Amazon]
An Auction site like DNW (http://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/special-collections/results.php?specialcollection_id=143&layout=list&offset=432&limit=24) might be more helpful. See Lot 4140 at that link.
Sadly: ROY Neville Playfair Hawkins died peacefully at Rottingdean on Friday, 6 March 1987, in his seventieth year.
Edit there is one for sale here (http://www.petermorris.co.uk/lists/token%20books.html) at £10
Thank you for your reply.
Would you be prepared to tell me about the purpose and use of tokens or direct me to somewhere that would explain it ?
I have been doing some research for a friend into their family history and he spoke about his grandfather having tokens in relation to the pub he owned - the Limerick Inn - in Gornal Wood, near Dudley. I did find a copy of one for this pub online but haven't been able to explain to him the reason and use for them.
I must admit I am fascinated !
There are so many different types of tokens you need to read some the threads in the token section to get some idea.
The machine tokens are described well in this What are machine tokens? (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,27267.0.html)
As for the pub tokens this paper (http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/1982_BNJ_52_20.pdf) deals very well with these. A pdf file which you can save.
Quote from: twistingastons on July 09, 2015, 03:07:45 PM
I have been doing some research for a friend into their family history and he spoke about his grandfather having tokens in relation to the pub he owned - the Limerick Inn - in Gornal Wood, near Dudley. I did find a copy of one for this pub online but haven't been able to explain to him the reason and use for them
Pub business is time sensitive. Everyone comes and goes at the same time. Sunday is a peak day, Monday isn't. If the pub-owning family cannot handle all the customers on peak hours, they have to hire part-time help. To prevent that the help grabs a share of the profit, sales are made against tokens only: the customer buys tokens at a window manned by a trusted person, e.g. the pub owner's wife. The customer pays with the tokens when ordering and the waiter forks over the tokens when receiving the order. This way, the waiter doesn't have to handle cash.
Peter
Thank you for the two replies in answer to my query on why tokens ? I can understand the use now of using them in pubs and can see if a customer (in whatever capacity) has to buy tokens from a trusted source, then it discourages and could prevent theft.
Were the bagatelle and billiard tokens issued for a similar purpose by Samuel Twist, for customers to use them to play ?
Were tokens also used in some circumstances as an advertising tool ?
I will read the articles recommended and look at the link showing a variety of tokens and medals etc.
The Twist family were major pub owners / victuallers and many were horse dealers. A number of the Twist women married men who also owned pubs or at least had the licence. The two pugilist brothers - Henry (Harry) Alfred Broome and John (Johnny) Broome - also owned a number of pubs in their time, but mainly in London.
The bagatelle checks are dealt with in the pdf article, see section II. GAMES AND GAMING where a good explanation is given.
I shall see if I can answer some of your questions after you have read through this!
The pdf malj1 has provided a link to explains quite well that the tokens could be used as credit items and in other ways. Here is one it doesn't explicitly mention: snooker tables could be equipped with a mechanism containing the balls. The mechanism could be worked with a token, bought from the pub owner and a handle, releasing the balls. As the balls were played into the pockets, they would return to the mechanism.
Most tokens have an element of advertising. One sub-class is for advertising only.
Peter
Thank you for two more replies. I have lots of reading up to do now !
I found an extract (I presume it is) from the Hawkins book online. This is the beginning of the article :
MINOR PRODUCTS OF BRITISH NINETEENTH-CENTURY DIESINKING By R. N. P. HAWKINS THIS article offers a general survey and classification of British nineteenth century discs .........
It runs to 9 pages which I am just printing off.
You gave me much intersting information on Kettles and Twist connection - helped to confirm in my mind it was Mary Twist from my Twist family who married Thomas Kettle - but if you are interested in any extra information that I have on Joseph and Samuel Twist and Thomas Kettle etc, I will be glad to provide it.
I found today Huttons History of Birmingham 1783 - Fascinating ! And in that it gives William Kettle as Constable in 1699 then Joseph Kettle 1733 / John Kettle 1737 / William Kettle 1743 as either constable or bailiff (I think men who were upstanding did a term for 12 months). So Maybe they are ancestors of Kettles of Birmingham already noted.
Off to do some reading !
Quote from: twistingastons on July 10, 2015, 05:30:35 PM
I found today Huttons History of Birmingham 1783 - Fascinating ! And in that it gives William Kettle as Constable in 1699 then Joseph Kettle 1733 / John Kettle 1737 / William Kettle 1743 as either constable or bailiff (I think men who were upstanding did a term for 12 months). So Maybe they are ancestors of Kettles of Birmingham already noted.
Henri Quitel only left France after the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes(1685), the family name was not anglicized to Kettle till later, it is suggested that it was easily changed to Kettle as the name was well known in Birmingham due to the Kettles of the Steel House, an affluent family involved in steel manufacturing, so I doubt if the above constables or bailiffs were from the Quitel/Kettle family.
Good luck with your research.
Pat
Kettles steel house was something (else) new to me so I have been looking it up.
Do you think John Kettle - of Kettles steel house in Steelhouse Lane - was of the same family as Henry and Thomas and William ?
It looks as if William Kettle was also a Victualler in Paradise Street and I have details of a William Kettle in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors. Mind I don't know if this is William Kettle, brother of Thomas.
Quote from: twistingastons on July 12, 2015, 07:35:03 PM
Do you think John Kettle - of Kettles steel house in Steelhouse Lane - was of the same family as Henry and Thomas and William ?
It looks as if William Kettle was also a Victualler in Paradise Street and I have details of a William Kettle in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors. Mind I don't know if this is William Kettle, brother of Thomas.
No, John is of the Steel house Kettles, who were well establish before the Quitel/Kettles arrived from France.
In an 1818 directory, Thomas & William are listed as
Kettle, William, Button Mkr In General, Mfr Of Military Stocks &c, Suffolk St.
Kettle, William(2nd Entry), Shoe Clasp &Sleeve Links, Pewter Toy Watches, Suffolk St.
But by 1819-1820 William is in Newhall street(watch & toy) & also listed as a die sinker in Great Charles street while Kettle, Thomas, Gilt Toy Mkr, Factor still in Suffolk St, so it appears that William had left the Kettle family business 1818-1819.
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn21/constanius/1828.jpg)
So it is possible/likely? that he is the same William you referenced, giving up die-sinking and becoming the victualler of the Twist inn on Suffolk street circa 1820, then a commission-agent on Paradise Street(perhaps residing and also working in the Twist inn there), then becoming the victualler at an inn in Walsall, failing in that business hence then appearing in 1828 at the Court for Relief of insolvent debtors.
More pieces from 1814.
(http://constanius.com/img/3268-horz.jpg)
FAUVER PEACE 1814-3, ONLY LISTED IN COPPER R.-8(5-10 KNOWN) THIS BEING SILVERED IS EVEN RARER, MIGHT BE UNIQUE.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf3269-horz.jpg)
FAUVER PEACE 1814-2a R.-6
(http://constanius.com/img/2622-horz.jpg)
FAUVER Peace 1814-1 R.-6, ONLY LISTED IN BRASS, THIS IS HEAVILY GILDED SO RARER
(http://constanius.com/img/2439.jpg)
THE BRASS VERSION OF PEACE 1814-1b
Very interesting, the bicentenary would have been last year.
A great collection....but now you do seem to have cornered the market so they are even even rarer for the rest of us!
I notice they all have the hole and more or less in the same position, I get the impression this is punched rather than drilled.
Another piece from 1814 bearing the same obverse as that of your Reply #27 (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,27159.msg186713.html#msg186713)
ALEXANDER EMP. OF ALL THE RUSSIAS rev. THE LIBERTIES OF EUROPE RESTD BY THE UNITED EFFORTS OF ENGLAND AND HER AUGUST ALLIES. THE PRELIMINARIES OF PEACE SIGNED MAY 30 1814
Thomas Kettle died in 1829 aged 51, his wife Mary(nee Twist) then became owner of the family business, she was assisted by her eldest son Thomas Francis(25), William Robinson(23), the second eldest son, who had worked in the family business had already left to become an accountant but Francis remained, and being the eldest, he was later listed as the owner in 1858(he died 1877) but by 1861 the premises were owned by Frederick Joseph Hobson who carried on the same trades at 99 Suffolk street.
The 1851 Census still had Mary Kettle(she died 1852) as fundholder, son Thomas a Gentleman.
Sir Rupert Alfred Kettle (9 January 1817 – 6 October 1894) was an English barrister and county court judge, involved in arbitration of trade disputes he was Thomas and Mary's youngest child(born 1817).
He was the sole executor for his brother Francis, the last owner of the Kettle family business, which had been founded by Henri Quitel the French Huguenot emigre soon after 1685 and remained in the family until c. 1860, leaving a legacy of interesting tokens as a lasting memorial to almost 200 years of existence.
The 1841 census only lists occupants, ages, occupations & street names but not house numbers. But by cross referencing directory lists of publicans & names and addresses of the inns on Suffolk st. & the census I have established that
William Kettle(son of Thomas & Mary Kettle) & his wife and young children occupied 97 Suffolk st.
Mary Kettle(owner) & Thomas Francis Kettle(her son & future owner) occupied 98 Suffolk st.
99 Suffolk st. is listed as Unoccupied, so was used only for the business.
This at least explains why, when the business was sold to Hobson c. 1860 his company listed address is only for 99 Suffolk st.
That certainly makes sense of it all, I have come across similar situations before.
Also a lot of confusion is caused later when streets have been renumbered.
(http://constanius.com/img/geopw1814.jpg)
BHM#823 The Peace of Paris, R.
Fauver page 39/40: Geo P.W. 1814-1b (P) 24mm R-8.
Obv. Uniformed bust of the Prince Regent bare head left. H.R.H GEORGE PRINCE OF WALES. P. RT.
Rev. Inscription within open wreath WELLINGTON / ALEXANDER / BLUCHER / PEACE / 1814
Left to right above 19mm, 27mm, 26mm, none were struck in collars and I suspect the largest was struck with more pressure than the 26mm and probably explains the extra 1mm. The smallest(unlisted) is very unusual as the last time Kettle used 19mm was in 1803, but that is not the only unusual thing about it.
(http://constanius.com/img/george-e.jpg)
The 'E's appear to be unique to this piece, none of any Kettle piece I have, or have seen, have an 'E' like them.
Could the 'E' punch have become damaged and then discarded?
Thanks for your reply Malcolm, much appreciated. It is possible that the punch broke.
I only received the smaller one today but comparing the 'F' & the 'E' on it they appear to be the same style(split bottoms), maybe Kettle just did not like the style?
(http://constanius.com/img/george-horz.jpg)
The 'G's & 'O' look very poorly executed as well, so perhaps he thought he would retain the portrait and redo the inscription?
Quotemaybe Kettle just did not like the style?
Neither do I! :(
Henry Kettle in 1801, 1803 and possibly 1805 struck imitation gold eagles as card tokens for the US market. I have wanted an example for quite sometime for my Kettle collection, unfortunately these are rather expensive due to the large number of US collectors, this example was more reasonably priced due to the large hole in the middle.
(http://constanius.com/img/dscf4098-horz.jpg)
Fauver. U.S. Gold 1803-4kpa (E) 25mm R. 7
I have no problem with the hole as the hole matches the nails in use in the early 1800's. If it had been holed to indicate it was not a genuine coin(cancelled) it would not have been necessary to drive the nail hard enough to sink the nail head into the token. I believe it was, as the following describes, used as a good luck token. As such I find the hole, though it defaces the token, adds to its history.
In the USA during the early 1800's coins were nailed to the rafters of new houses to bring good luck to the inhabitants. These are found with the characteristic square nail holes through them and have been nicknamed "rafter cents". Also coins were nailed inside door frames or to basement beams etc. Here is a picture of one, with the nail still in place.
(http://constanius.com/img/bwe.jpg)
Apparently this was also a European tradition to nail jetons to door frames.
Your picture showing a jeton with the nail still intact is the first complete one I have seen and gives ample confirmation of the practice.
There is a similar eagle type at 1893 united states of america token or model piece (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,35058.0.html)
Managed to find one more picture, though the nail is not corroded to the coin, it appears to be a genuine good luck coin.
(http://constanius.com/img/nailed.jpg)
Interesting and I get some idea of the size of the nail as three fingers is at least two inches!
(http://constanius.com/img/k1802.jpg)
The last year that Kettle issued his imitation spade guineas was 1802, this is the 1802 kpb(gold plated brass)half-guinea, 19mm.
Is it known if he gold-plated these? ...or was it someone else trying to pass as a half-guinea. ???
Seeing as the genuine spade guineas and half guineas were only issued up to 1799 plus Kettle signed his work I believe he issued them plated. Someone wishing to pass them as genuine coins would probably have remove the name Kettle, from below the bust, before gilding them.
Whether he used real gold on some or not I am not sure, Forrer claimed they were gold-plated but I have not seen any proof of that. So I usually just use gilded with any gold coloured token, though I suspect that some of my tokens might have be gold-plate I have never bothered to have any tested.
Got my first Twist; actually Twist & Morris with a lovely view of the bagatelle table.
My compressed image doesn't quite show the name POPE F. inscribed along the edge of the table but see the close-up view.
Are they the sole inventors & makers then? Perhaps its a trade mark?
I have now realised POPE F. was the token maker.
T. POPE & CO COIN & PRESS MAKERS, BIRMINGHAM
See here (http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/index.php/topic,21112.msg142977.html#msg142977)
Congratulation on your acquisition :thumbsup: and well done with your attribution to Pope :applause:
Here are the Birmingham addresses and dates for T Pope & Co., the earlier addresses fit nicely with our previous research above.
T. Pope & Co.
56 St. Paul's Square 1850-1851
52 St. Paul's Square 1851-1854
14 Newhall Street 1854-1895
110 Livery Street 1896-1952